How did the female characters in GRRM books inspire the most...shall we say fervor?

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

As I mentioned her scene that really touched my heart was when she built a snow castle. Now I could go into a personal anecdote and tell why it touched me so, but I don't think anybody would be interested. For me it was really just how she grew up and started caring for things that are really important.

Yes, that was a nice, bittersweet scene. At least it was a nice scene, until The Trifecta of Really Shitty People Who It Must Suck to be Cooped up with in The Eyre ruined it by being themselves.

I haven't known too many Americans, but what I experienced suggests me that the reason you find Sansa's courtesy stiff and formal, because Americans in general are rather friendly and genial from the very first moment you meet them. What do you think about that as an American? :)

It could be true. I don't have much basis for comparison. I don't know many non-Americans. I lived in Korea for a year, and they seemed to be quite friendly and helpful. I know a handful of Canadians. The ones my age (30s and 40s) seem quite nice, the younger ones seem to look down their nose at Americans, but that's just my experience.

[RhaenysBee]

Yes, that was a nice, bittersweet scene. At least it was a nice scene, until The Trifecta of Really Shitty People Who It Must Suck to be Cooped up with in The Eyre ruined it by being themselves.

Yes... -.-" I couldn't yet decide which of them I hate more...

It could be true. I don't have much basis for comparison. I don't know many non-Americans. I lived in Korea for a year, and they seemed to be quite friendly and helpful. I know a handful of Canadians. The ones my age (30s and 40s) seem quite nice, the younger ones seem to look down their nose at Americans, but that's just my experience.

I go to Italy almost every summer for seven years now and even they were not so open and friendly as some Americans I met. In France and Austria people are rather distant and I found that especially true for London. It might just be my experience. But in Middle Europe it's really not a customary thing to greet people you just met like long lost friends. American openness is becoming a trend among teens, but most people still find that out of ordinary (without meaning anything wrong here). And I am generally the sort of person who doesn't make friends on every corner and take her time to put trust into people. Maybe that adds up to it too.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Yes... -.-" I couldn't yet decide which of them I hate more...

Lysa for me, but if I was a pretty 13 year old girl and the daughter of the woman who friend-zoned Pervyfinger into becoming the Maester of Whores, I'd be the the most skeeved out by Petyr.

[ServantOnIce]

I was just honestly wondering.

I barely see any male characters inspire the long arguments and discussion that Sansa, Cersei, Catelyn, and Dany do. Now, I partake in these discussions as well, so I wanted to know what you guys think is the reason that we all respond so...PASSIONATELY to each of these strong women?

I know that I dislike Dany and love the other three, and find myself arguing with people the most about these characters.

Why do you think they supply such passion for us readers?

Most fantasy readers and fanatics are males and males love talking about women, especially women of their fantasies.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Cersei is like archvilain and a total bitch. We are supposed to love hating her. She's like a scarecrow for whatever bad words come to your mind.

Sansa's hate come from the beginning (aGoT & aCoK) and is a bypass reaction of the fact that she was a plotdrive for the reader to comprehend how a "young lady" is raised in Westeros.

Dany....well....there is enough thread about her.

And OP, did you take a look at Stannis threads? Now there is some lenghty arguments too.

[Natalie_S]

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

I am a woman, but I can't identify with this.

I work as an engineer in a transport company in which the staff is 90% men, and believe me, I've been subject to sexism (more or less explicitly) and double standards since my first day of work, but personally I think it's important to judge characters (and people in RL) as individuals and not as representants of masculinity and femininity, otherwise we'd be just as bad as male chauvinists.

I don't think my gender defines me as an individual (it's just a part of who I am, not the whole thing), and I assume this also about other people.

Besides, as we're talking about characters that were created by a man, we're not judging the actions of a real person, but how the author choose to represent them.

We might be annoyed because GRRM decided to make Dany a bad ruler, but it doesn't change the fact that, in the events narrated in the book, she is a bad ruler (IMHO).

[brashcandy]

Excellent points as usual, brashcandy!

I’m a woman and agree with pretty much everything you said. That said, I can still dislike a female character that struggles against things modern women struggle against too. For instance, of the women mentioned in the OP I like Sansa and Cersei. I don’t like Catelyn and I’m undecided regarding Dany. My liking or disliking these characters doesn’t mean I’m misogynistic or sexist, or that I’m against women’s rights.

I don’t hate Catelyn, mind you. And I like reading her chapters because they are always so full of important titbits that help piece (some) of the puzzles. But I don’t like her, mostly because try as I might I can’t relate to her. What can I say? I have seen people here (women) overreacting when other women say anything against pretty much any female character.

I cannot be expected to like female characters solely because we are the same gender.

Yeah for sure, your point is a valid one. All women are not required to like or defend all the female characters in the books and most people know that Catelyn is not a favourite of mine either. However, I do think that the contributions and struggles of the traditionally feminine characters are consistently devalued by readers and this is what needs to challenged. Arya is never considered a "brat" for instance, because obviously the desire to fight with a sword and go hunting for rubies is noble and honourable. Nevermind that she's deliberately helping to ruin her sister's special outing with the Queen and refusing to partake in an activity that would be read as a direct affront in noble society, all because "she doesn't want to." But Sansa is construed as bratty and snotty, and Arya is just great!

"Female desire" might as well be some alien term around these parts for the amount of respect it gets shown by a lot of readers. Dany is regularly slut shamed because she dared to actually choose a man she was sexually attracted to, and Sansa was expected to find common cause with her jailor/husband and accept him into her bed in an act of wifely obedience. Of course, many readers will claim that their reasoning has nothing to do with negating female desire or authority, but that it would have the best decision for these women to ally with men like Quentyn or Tyrion. I think a lot of that is pure bs to be honest. When you get right down to the nitty gritty, it's the same kind of preferential bias towards male desire. Men must naturally get what they want or came looking for, no matter how inadequate, incompetent, unappealing or unattractive they might be.

[RhaenysBee]

Lysa for me, but if I was a pretty 13 year old girl and the daughter of the woman who friend-zoned Pervyfinger into becoming the Maester of Whores, I'd be the the most skeeved out by Petyr.

Yeah... And you can blame Sweetrobin on Lysa too, so it's really easy to hate her most. Petyr is a pervert though...

[Woman of War]

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

No, there is not a closed frontline of female readers vs male readers, at least I have never perceived it that way.

And some of the female characters evoke criticism especially from women who see themselves as feminists and have very good reasons to be astonished about the imo disproportionate praise these characters receive in these forums. Here again and again different concepts of what it means to be a woman in Westeros are discussed as proxy discussion for how women see themselves today.

And there is the debate about the concept of maternity along Cersei and Cat, where the trenches :) go right through the female readership as well. There is no typical female viewpoint.

So THE female reader does not exist but I would now actually like to hear about the different male readers and their different approaches.

[The Sleeper]

Personally, I find this division between masculine and feminine traits artificial and arbitrary. To use examples from within a story.

Manipulation, machinations and back room dealings: Varys, LF, Tyrion, Tywin, Jon Arryn, Kevan, Doran and basically anyone who is involved with politics with any amount of success in the series.

Marriage: Renly married to get an army, Ned married to get an army, Robb betrothed to cross a bridge.

Sexual manipulation: LF

"courtesy armor": Renly (has it down to a science) Roose (you will notice his manner is reserved and never less than courteous)

I shudder to think what would have happened if Martin had made Doran a woman.

Also Maester Cressen is driven to murder to prevent the men he sees as his sons from killing eachother and feels this turn of events deeply as a failure on his part.

On the flip side: does Arya's, Brienne or Asha's attitude negate their sex? Does Olenna's Tyrell bighting wit and contempt for propriety makes her less of a woman? Does Sam's fondness for singing and dancing negate his? And then of course we have Dany who tramples cities under her "dainty sandaled feet".

[brashcandy]

No, there is not a closed frontline of female readers vs male readers, at least I have never perceived it that way.

And some of the female characters evoke criticism especially from women who see themselves as feminists and have very good reasons to be astonished about the imo disproportionate praise these characters receive in these forums. Here again and again different concepts of what it means to be a woman in Westeros are discussed as proxy discussion for how women see themselves today.

And there is the debate about the concept of maternity along Cersei and Cat, where the trenches :) go right through the female readership as well. There is no typical female viewpoint.

So THE female reader does not exist but I would now actually like to hear about the different male readers and their different approaches.

When have I asserted there was a typical female viewpoint? My point has been that women who fight with swords are not subjected to half the analysis or criticism of their counterparts. There is then the false dichotomy of activity vs. passivity, where the latter is almost always perceived as weak and ineffective.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Personally, I find this division between masculine and feminine traits artificial and arbitrary.

Artificial, arbitrary, and ridiculous. Based on some of the things said here, men are somehow wrong for liking warrior women like Brienne and Arya and not liking relative wallflowers like Sansa. God forbid we should have preferences. We're taken to task for liking women who act strong and empowered, and not liking a girl who falls back into the rigid role assigned to her by a sexist society. I'm sorry, but that seems an anti-feminist attitude.

[David Selig]

Why is identifying with characters so important? I much prefer to read about characters who are very different than me, I find it far more interesting in most cases. Being in the head of someone whose thoughts, attitudes and actions are alien to me is one of the main reasons I like reading fiction.

[Woman of War]

How many male posters can identify with female characters at all? Ser Patreck for instance listed no female characters he can identify with. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the female characters get more flak: due to male readers simply not being used to identify with a female. It's a known fact in SFF that to succeed it is easier to choose a male protagonist and checking the literature forum and what people posted there, a lot of male readers said they picked books with male leads on purpose, and also novels written by men.

I would not know about your last sentence but I in general agree. I am not really young anymore and have started my reading history at a time when there were stiil books for girls and books for boys. The boys' books were those with the interesting stories that promised adventure and carried you away from your dull world while the girl's books told you how to solve problems by staying within the space where you belong. They told how to set things right without definitely breaking the rules, the traditional concept of female abilities.

So no wonder I never had any trouble identifying with male protagonists, they promised the big world to me while girl's books confined me mentally to home. Only when I discovered adult literature at about ten, btw with strong support from my mother, I realized how much e.g. Anna Karenina and Effi Briest, two women who actually die from their fate as women, have to do with me. But still today it comes easy to me to slip into the skin of a male protagnist. And I know that male readers, at least from my generation, may lack the training to get into female characters. So much more admiration do I have for Martin as male author who offers us so very diffenrenciated female protagonists.

Today my sons switch easily between different types of literature and different protagonists. I mean, which twelve or fifteen year old boy would not love the Hunger Games? Female author, female protagonist.

So my faves are wildly mixed, while I have a slight tendency to give pass to a woman for a deed I would seriously condemn in a male character. I am certainly overly forgiving with Dany, Cat and Cersei. While concerning Arya I am as objective as the Lord of Light himself :).

[brashcandy]

Artificial, arbitrary, and ridiculous. Based on some of the things said here, men are somehow wrong for liking warrior women like Brienne and Arya and not liking relative wallflowers like Sansa. God forbid we should have preferences. We're taken to task for liking women who act strong and empowered, and not liking a girl who falls back into the rigid role assigned to her by a sexist society. I'm sorry, but that seems an anti-feminist attitude.

Gods... Thanks for providing the perfect illustration to the arguments I've been making. You think Arya and Brienne are "strong" and "empowered" because they fight back - physically- against their oppressors, while failing to recognize that Sansa is just as strong and powerful without using such means. Sansa has not fallen back on any rigid role assigned to her. You have however done an admirable job of retreating to the sexist bias of your society.

[Ser_Patreck]

When have I asserted there was a typical female viewpoint? My point has been that women who fight with swords are not subjected to half the analysis or criticism of their counterparts. There is then the false dichotomy of activity vs. passivity, where the latter is almost always perceived as weak and ineffective.

Hardly. The criticism some female characters receive (Cersei, Catelyn, Asha, Arianne...) comes from stupid decisions they made, from decidedly active behavior.

This point can be made only in Arya x Sansa comparisons, and even then is sketchy at best. Arya is more well liked, I'd hazard, because she's portrayed sympathetically from the start, while Sansa starts as a brat, and some readers can't get past her initial actions in aGoT.

[ARYa_Nym]

I do think some fans go overboard with their stanning but you'll get that in every fandom.

As for feminine vs. female characters with masculine traits the former does inspire hatred. Although Dany isn't completely a feminine character. I think she will shift to the second category more and more as the story goes on. Dragons plant no trees.

Catelyn, Sansa, are hated but lately Sansa has a lot of stans. She gets defended where someone like Dany won't by most people. Like more people will sympathize what Sansa goes through in a forced marriage but not Dany.

Arianne doesn't inspire hatred to my knowledge but she may be disliked, or people are indifferent, or they like her.

Asha on the other hand doesn't inspire hatred at all that I know of.

Brienne fights with a sword but gets similar criticism to Sansa in that she's boring, a useless POV, and spends too much time not doing anything.

Ygritte isn't liked by most people I think because many found her annoying. I think she shares traits with Arya but I dislike her.

Sand Snakes idk. I've heard them called cliche. I don't care about them personally.

Arya is one of the most popular characters. The only criticisms she gets are that she's unrealistic. Children shouldn't be killing even though kids younger than her do it IRL.

Then she gets called damaged or psychotic where other characters like Jaime, the Hound, Tyrion, etc. are not. They can kill people and not feel much if any remorse but they're not damaged or mentally disturbed. The former two can be shipped with people whereas Arya has no place in society so should die at the end.

Arya sometimes is said not to be a proper Stark because she kills but based on what we know of the Kings of Winter there are probably people buried in the crypts who have done worse things than her.

But then you have that with Sansa being called Tully or whatever.

[kissdbyfire]

This point can be made only in Arya x Sansa comparisons, and even then is sketchy at best. Arya is more well liked, I'd hazard, because she's portrayed sympathetically from the start, while Sansa starts as a brat, and some readers can't get past her initial actions in aGoT.

I think this is very true when comparing Arya and Sansa's 'popularity' with the readership. Like many others, I didn't like Sansa at first. But that changed with her development, and I'm very happy it did.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

Personally, I find this division between masculine and feminine traits artificial and arbitrary. To use examples from within a story.

Manipulation, machinations and back room dealings: Varys, LF, Tyrion, Tywin, Jon Arryn, Kevan, Doran and basically anyone who is involved with politics with any amount of success in the series.

Marriage: Renly married to get an army, Ned married to get an army, Robb betrothed to cross a bridge.

Sexual manipulation: LF

"courtesy armor": Renly (has it down to a science) Roose (you will notice his manner is reserved and never less than courteous)

I shudder to think what would have happened if Martin had made Doran a woman.

Also Maester Cressen is driven to murder to prevent the men he sees as his sons from killing eachother and feels this turn of events deeply as a failure on his part.

On the flip side: does Arya's, Brienne or Asha's attitude negate their sex? Does Olenna's Tyrell bighting wit and contempt for propriety makes her less of a woman? Does Sam's fondness for singing and dancing negate his? And then of course we have Dany who tramples cities under her "dainty sandaled feet".

There are many ways in which people seek power and not all of them involve wielding the sword, that's true. I still think you're missing the point. There is a difference between feminine/masculine personality traits and the methods and means that you've described. I'm not a big fan of saying that some personality traits are more feminine or masculine than others, but historically that's the way we think. At every time in history society described what kind of behaviour was to be expected of men and women. Remember when by Arnold Schwarzenegger accused an opponent of being a "girly man"? Since then the term been used several times in political debates and always as an insult.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Girlie_men

There is an insinuation that a man can behave like a "real man", i.e. behave in a typically male fashion, or can behave in a feminine way (which is very much frowned upon).

So....in ASOIAF, Sansa is seen as a very feminine character. She aspires to be a lady, to be the model of what a woman is supposed to be like in medieval times. In contrast to Arya she doesn't seek direct confrontation. While Arya is quick to tell everyone her oppinion, Sansa is courteous to other people. She may think low of them, but she hides her assessments behind a polite front. Sansa is interested in romantic songs, pretty clothes, gossip with other girls, charming princes...she could hardly be a more stereotypical girl if she tried. That's the difference between her and the characters you have listed. Robb may have married to gain an army, but that's simply a mean to achieve his strategic goal. He is still very much a typical male and a respected warrior.

As others have said before me, it's not like Arya and Brienne are bad because they seek to fight (behaving in a typically male fashion). It's just that it's kind of unfair that Sansa is devalued just because she behaves in a typically female fashion. To be respected, do women have to be like men?

There's a study in which students had to rate both women and men that asked their boss for a raise. If a woman was very assertive and agressive, she was rated negatively. If a woman behaved more reserved and hesitant, she was thought to be unfit for a raise. On the other hand, men that behaved aggressively were rated positively.

Wether we like it or not, we have concepts of "feminine" and "masculine" behaviour. It's directly related to how judge people.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Sand Snakes idk. I've heard them called cliche. I don't care about them personally.

They are, but that's also the reason why some people (like me) like them. Femmes fatales sidekicks (well, sort of) are always welcome.