Why does everyone think Aegon is fake v.2

[Cinder Stark]

Haha, ok yeah I mean I don't trust, but I think he knows what he is doing, i guess i meant that if he believes something i believe it to.

BTW these forums are the most awesome thing I have ever seen and totally give me something to do when it's slow at work.

I do have friends that are into ASOIAF. but not like all the ppl in these forums :) so yeah well met everyone!

:) agreed I think he knows what he's doing and is passing off Aegon as the real deal. It's his old con from back home on a larger level.

[Malcolm of House Tucker]

The real mummer's dragon is probably just that "stone dragon" Melisandre keeps prattling on about; as she's too unwise to know that the stone dragon(s) has already risen when Dany's ancient dragon eggs hatched. King's blood has already awakened the stone dragon, and the blood was Khal Drogo's (who was a king in his own way) or else that of Dany's deceased child, who would've been a king had he lived.

If Aegon is a fake, the only explanation can be this: he was conceived so late in the series by the author in order to add some spice to the Targaryen storyline, once it became clear that Dany was content to walk the road to nowhere. Thus, Aegon was never meant to exist in the first place.

[aryagonnakill]

ok you made me do it. I have to put on my George r.r. Martin hat and try and get in his head for this one. First of all Aegon wont be who he says he is because its too late in the story to introduce him as a central charecter, he hasnt been a pov charecter even though weve known about him for a while now .Grrm wouldnt take a huge gamble on this guy being accepted not by westeros like in the books but by the fans . I for one dont like the idea of him hes usurped Danys story by being the exile force coming from the free cities taking all the easy options were as Dany has proven herself by being a cunning politician and a compassionate ruler. Id bet my house on Aegon being fake black fyre offspring. With my George hat on i will make another analysis in the prologue for ADWD Varamyr sixskins tells us he chose the name Varamyr what if subconsciously or intentionally Grrm was giving us a hint that the name Varys is an assumed name too, what if Varys real name is Aegon and when he killed Kevan he was talking about himself when he said Aegon is returning to his rightful throne. I dont agree that Varys isnt interested in power ,he is a master of misdirection . The dragon has 3 heads , Jon, Daenerys , if the third is not Lord conningtons Aegon who is it?

I agree about Aegon being fake but Dany has not proven herself a cunning politician, if she had she would have been in Volantis like everyone who was going to her suspected she would. I think the whole slavers bay thing was to teach her, maybe now she can make decisions that aren't perfect but are the less of two evils, which she has been unable to do so far.

I agree, I don't think Jon would be considered a bastard if he is R+L. I mean he had crowned her queen of love and beauty, and was apparently apart from the sickly Elia for a long time. if anything he didn't declare his love openly for Lyanna because it would insult the hell out of Dorne.

I used to think it would eventually be Jon and Dany together to continue the Targaryen line. But idk she is his aunt, his father's sister, and I know 'the targaryen's have wed brother and sister for centuries' and everyone is OK with that, but incest is incest and it is generally frowned upon and I just don't think GRRM would do that to Jon. Because it is inherently evil, cersei and jaime have shown that. and if everyone condemns them for their incest theywould also have to condemn jon and Dany. I think M Maz dur is right about dany having no more children, she has her dragons, and it sounds like her and drogo's baby was part dragon itself with scales and wings. So i dont think GRRM would subject Jon to any part of that.

--Having said that i have absolutely no idea what other female GRRM could have in mind for Jon, I mean who else is there? it would have to be someone he has never met before right?

MMD gave a time when Dany could have children again, when the sea dried up-drogons burn marks on the dothraki sea, when mountains crumble-pyramids in Mereen being torn down metaphorically by the whole situation and physically by Dany's dragons, when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east-Tyrstane Martel.

[darksellsword]

@aryagonnakill Danys main talent is politics and commanding others, remember how she handlled all of the factions that were initially against her, ie second sons , the wind blown, the iron shields etc. How could anyone outside of slavers bay say Dany should be in Volantis by now they wouldnt have a clue of the situation in Meereen. I agree everything thats happened in slaversbay is to mature Danys abilities as a Queen. I think you mistook the prophecy given to Dany to mean something else , that was for when Khal Drogo would be returned to her not about her having children

[aryagonnakill]

@aryagonnakill Danys main talent is politics and commanding others, remember how she handlled all of the factions that were initially against her, ie second sons , the wind blown, the iron shields etc. How could anyone outside of slavers bay say Dany should be in Volantis by now they wouldnt have a clue of the situation in Meereen. I agree everything thats happened in slaversbay is to mature Danys abilities as a Queen. I think you mistook the prophecy given to Dany to mean something else , that was for when Khal Drogo would be returned to her not about her having children

Dany didn't handle all the factions, thats why they all wound up being against her. Tywin, Stannis, Ranyl Tarly would have killed all the Yunkish masters and the rich people in Mereen, and then none of the sellswords would have been brought in/switched sides against her so she could have moved right onto selhorys and then Volantis. People outside slavers bay know the exact situation thats how the slavers got the sellswords there. As for the prophecy I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

[gingerpunk]

MMD gave a time when Dany could have children again, when the sea dried up-drogons burn marks on the dothraki sea, when mountains crumble-pyramids in Mereen being torn down metaphorically by the whole situation and physically by Dany's dragons, when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east-Tyrstane Martel.

This intrigues me, because I feel it could well be that each of these events marked Mirri Maz Duur's words, however the original question was, "When shall I have Drogo back?" To which she answered with when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the sea dries up, when mountains crumble, when your womb quickens and bears a living child. So, the only way to legitimize this statement is to somehow return Drogo to the story- perhaps reincarnated in the body of the dragon that bears his name? (Just thinking with my imagination. I don't really want Dany to be barren either.) Your comparison of MMD's words and events in the story are cool. I like it.

[ladyinblack]

my favorite part of the hotu scene is how the author told us which scenes we can call right and which we can call wrong. oh, wait, that part of the book does not exist.

oh I do wish for the like button for some of your comments like the 1 above

[darksellsword]

Dany didn't handle all the factions, thats why they all wound up being against her. Tywin, Stannis, Ranyl Tarly would have killed all the Yunkish masters and the rich people in Mereen, and then none of the sellswords would have been brought in/switched sides against her so she could have moved right onto selhorys and then Volantis. People outside slavers bay know the exact situation thats how the slavers got the sellswords there. As for the prophecy I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

she didnt get slaughtered by any of the factions and more than a few joined her id say that was pretty clever, Tywin and the rest are in Westeros we have no way of knowing what they would of done had they been in her situation. The remedies you proposed would of solved nothing infact it probably would of made Dany dispised by Yunkai and Meereen. As for the "Prophecy" i dont see it as being one , It was a comment in reply to the question when would Drogo be returned to her as he was ..I took it as mockery from someone that poisoned Drogo and killed Danys child out of vengeance. Most of the events she described were impossible.

[aryagonnakill]

She didn't get slaughtered by forces she once surrounded and had besieged, only besieged herself, thats a really high standard. Your right you cannot actually say what Tywin and others would have done, but look at JonCon's story regarding the battle of the bells, thats what I was drawing on. And seriously your just plain wrong about saying that what I proposed would have solved nothing. I am not saying that should she have actually gone into Yunkai and killed all the Yunkish masters and all of the harpies that life would have suddenly been heaven on earth, but Dany would have had no enemies in slavers bay besides new ghis and she could have just kept moving towards westeros dragons and army growing. The reason why this would have been a difficult but correct decision is because she would have lost lives upfront but saved them in the end, that is what I meant by the less of two evils, a thousand lives now is better then 5 thousand lives a month from now, in my point of view.

[darksellsword]

She had Meereen surrounded that would of only been an advantage if she had a good supply line of food and water for a prolonged siege , she didnt. Slaughtering all the Yunkish Masters would of set yunkai up to be a slaver port within weeks seeing as Dany found out most of slavers bay doesnt know how to opperate under any other system . Dany making a council of elders there at least delayed them with the notion of a fair rule , As for slaughtering the Harpies in Meereen thats twice as bad seeing as there are the sons of the Harpies left and the Harpies themselves are a religious figures to the people of Meereen up in their pyramids. The idea that Dany would of had no enemies after you slaughtered those two groups is far from the truth. All of the populous of slavers bay now including Meereen with the wealth of the harpies would be raising massive armies of sellswords to pursue and kill Dany. The whole reason why Daenerys is a worth while charecter is because she doesnt cast these cities aside

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree about Aegon being fake but Dany has not proven herself a cunning politician, if she had she would have been in Volantis like everyone who was going to her suspected she would. I think the whole slavers bay thing was to teach her, maybe now she can make decisions that aren't perfect but are the less of two evils, which she has been unable to do so far.

MMD gave a time when Dany could have children again, when the sea dried up-drogons burn marks on the dothraki sea, when mountains crumble-pyramids in Mereen being torn down metaphorically by the whole situation and physically by Dany's dragons, when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east-Tyrstane Martel.

yeah But I think that is a metaphor for 'it's not going to happen, so just forget it'. I mean the sun will never rise in the west.

[RWHamel]

If I was Varys, I would have smuggled all three into the secret passages without replacements. I would have then slit all their throats. Then dropped their bodies in a hole down there. Robert and others can search all they want. No one would ever be found. That way I would set the stage for an Aegon come back. Then I would be able to have all the time in the world to find and create a new Aegon. In fact I would probably start out with several potential Aegons, and select the best candidate when they were in their teens.

Of course I'm more devious and and more of a sociopath than Vary's.

What I really think is that Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia all died in King's Landing, and Varys cooked up his scheme after the fact.

[Lummel]

...If Aegon is a fake, the only explanation can be this: he was conceived so late in the series by the author in order to add some spice to the Targaryen storyline, once it became clear that Dany was content to walk the road to nowhere. Thus, Aegon was never meant to exist in the first place.

No, the Aegon storyline is started by GRRM in AGOT. Varys is quite careful never to describe Aegon as having been killed while he mentions Rhaeneys being killed - for instance to The Ned when he visits him in the Black Cells. Plus of course Illyrio's efforts to get Daenerys married off to the Dothraki are part of that plan, so Aegon is far from a late invention.

But that has no bearing on Aegon being a fake because Varys and Illyrio are behind the effort to put Aegon on the throne.

[Ser Lepus]

If I was Varys, I would have smuggled all three into the secret passages without replacements. I would have then slit all their throats. Then dropped their bodies in a hole down there. Robert and others can search all they want. No one would ever be found. That way I would set the stage for an Aegon come back. Then I would be able to have all the time in the world to find and create a new Aegon. In fact I would probably start out with several potential Aegons, and select the best candidate when they were in their teens.

Of course I'm more devious and and more of a sociopath than Vary's.

What I really think is that Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia all died in King's Landing, and Varys cooked up his scheme after the fact.

Why kill the original Aegon, if you intended to use a double to steal the throne anyway? Why not using the original one?

Also, what would be the point of killing them and make Robert believe that Aegon was still alive, encouraging him to be alert and search him all around the world?

Your plan has the worst of both worlds: Robert would be aware of Aegon's survival and would be alert and prepared, but you would also have to find a double to pass him as Aegon.

The only advantage would be that people would probably believe Faegon when he arrived because they knew he was alive all the time, but, if you intend to do that, why not using the real Aegon?

[bent branch]

Why kill the original Aegon, if you intended to use a double to steal the throne anyway? Why not using the original one?

Also, what would be the point of killing them and make Robert believe that Aegon was still alive, encouraging to be alert and search him all around the world?

Your plan has the worst of both worlds: Robert would be aware of Aegon's survival and would be alert and prepared, but you would also have to find a double to pass him as Aegon.

The only advantage would be that people would probably believe Faegon when he arrived because they knew he was alive all the time, but, if you intend to do that, why not using the real Aegon?

Like.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Hi new to the topic it's probably been mentioned a dozen times but here's my "logical" thought on this.

Supposedly Varys switched Aegon and shipped him off to Illyario where they found Jon Corrington later to bring him up.

Here's the problem.

Viserys gives Khal Drogo his sister in a marriage pact formed through an alliance with Illyario. Viserys himself is promised in a marriage pact to Arienne, princess of Dorne(which he obviously doesn't know about and Illyario is not ready to tell him about). Dorn thinks that his daughter is going to be Queen of the realm otherwise he would not have wrote the note to his son saying that he would rule in Dorne after him.

Aegon meanwhile is growing up on the Shy Maid, learning about all that stuff but Corrington and Company are getting ready to bring him back to Westros.

so we have three heads here. Viserys, Aegon and Rhaego.

It seems like Viserys is their plan A, no one can dispute his claim to the Iron Throne or call him a fake, his marriage pact with Dorn gives them that army plus the army of Darthaki. When he dies their plans get shaken up a bit. They now might have to rely on plan B or C Dany's son or Aegon.

Khal Drogo dies, and they suspect Dany with him so now they're in trouble, then they find out she's hatched the three dragon eggs and is in Quarth and apparently her son has died too.

Which frees her up to marry Aegon and strengthen his claim to the Iron Throne. People might say he is a fake but there's no denying that who she is.

Illyario now sends Ser Barristan and Strong Belwas to meet her and bring her back to Pentos with her dragons.

My question is if Aegon is the true heir why was Viserys promised in a marriage pact to Dorne? They believed that Viserys is the true heir to the Iron Throne, as does most everyone else. Where is Aegon's secret marriage pact to bring in another Targ loyalist?

There isn't one, that's why he's fake. He's their back-up plan.

[aryagonnakill]

If I was Varys, I would have smuggled all three into the secret passages without replacements. I would have then slit all their throats. Then dropped their bodies in a hole down there. Robert and others can search all they want. No one would ever be found. That way I would set the stage for an Aegon come back. Then I would be able to have all the time in the world to find and create a new Aegon. In fact I would probably start out with several potential Aegons, and select the best candidate when they were in their teens.

Of course I'm more devious and and more of a sociopath than Vary's.

What I really think is that Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia all died in King's Landing, and Varys cooked up his scheme after the fact.

I get what your saying

[Ser Lepus]

Hi new to the topic it's probably been mentioned a dozen times but here's my "logical" thought on this.

Supposedly Varys switched Aegon and shipped him off to Illyario where they found Jon Corrington later to bring him up.

Here's the problem.

Viserys gives Khal Drogo his sister in a marriage pact formed through an alliance with Illyario. Viserys himself is promised in a marriage pact to Arienne, princess of Dorne(which he obviously doesn't know about and Illyario is not ready to tell him about). Dorn thinks that his daughter is going to be Queen of the realm otherwise he would not have wrote the note to his son saying that he would rule in Dorne after him.

Aegon meanwhile is growing up on the Shy Maid, learning about all that stuff but Corrington and Company are getting ready to bring him back to Westros.

so we have three heads here. Viserys, Aegon and Rhaego.

It seems like Viserys is their plan A, no one can dispute his claim to the Iron Throne or call him a fake, his marriage pact with Dorn gives them that army plus the army of Darthaki. When he dies their plans get shaken up a bit. They now might have to rely on plan B or C Dany's son or Aegon.

Khal Drogo dies, and they suspect Dany with him so now they're in trouble, then they find out she's hatched the three dragon eggs and is in Quarth and apparently her son has died too.

Which frees her up to marry Aegon and strengthen his claim to the Iron Throne. People might say he is a fake but there's no denying that who she is.

Illyario now sends Ser Barristan and Strong Belwas to meet her and bring her back to Pentos with her dragons.

My question is if Aegon is the true heir why was Viserys promised in a marriage pact to Dorne? They believed that Viserys is the true heir to the Iron Throne, as does most everyone else. Where is Aegon's secret marriage pact to bring in another Targ loyalist?

There isn't one, that's why he's fake. He's their back-up plan.

GRRM said that Varys and Illyrio don't know about Vyseris and Arianne's marriage pact. I think you can find the exact quote at So Spake Martin.

[MtnLion]

. . .

It seems like Viserys is their plan A, no one can dispute his claim to the Iron Throne or call him a fake, his marriage pact with Dorn gives them that army plus the army of Darthaki. When he dies their plans get shaken up a bit. They now might have to rely on plan B or C Dany's son or Aegon.

. . .

Aegon has the better claim than Viserys, unless he is a fake. (I believe that he is a fake, from other clues.)

[Winter's Prince]

I just find it hard to believe. The boy has been dead for seventeen years. There is no DNA evidence to support this, and he just pops up on the radar out of no where.