[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Quiet Sister]

I guess my real question is, at what point did he change from believing Robert was his father to totally embracing the fact he's a product of incest?

Hi,

are we sure indeed he's embraced his true parentage or that he knows about it at all? Him saying he's a Lannister is perfectly understandable thing. Why should he identify with his dead father who never been truly fatherly towards him, his dead uncle-traitor and usurper, and another uncle - also traitor and usurper? He's got Lannister's looks, his strength and family ties are with Lannisters. Although his name is Barathreon, for him it's a name only of almost extinct family of people he generally hates. He may be Barathreon by birth ;) but in his heart he's a Lannister like his grandfather, mother and uncle Jaime.

My first :)

[Blaer Dayle]

I think Dany is eighteen because how RR was 18 years in the past, moreover she actually has sex scenes they had to show thus she has to be of age.

The actor needs to be of age, not the character they are portraying. That said I think they did alter the timeline to make her 18.

Hi,

are we sure indeed he's embraced his true parentage or that he knows about it at all?

He at least knows of it, as he confronted cersei about it last season. Whether he's accepted it or not is a different question altogether.

[Warhawk137]

Y'know, with all the people complaining about how the show's portrayal of Tyrion makes Sansa look bad, I think there's actually a big opportunity here to conduct some character development if the show handles it properly. So, maybe viewers are critical of Sansa for not being nicer to Tyrion, because Tyrion is a pretty decent bloke on the show. Well, how about if in the next few episodes, pre-Purple Wedding, Sansa starts changing her mind on Tyrion, by way of comparison with Joffrey in particular - moreso than she did in the books. They could do a good job contrasting how the news of the Red Wedding affects her by showing how Joffrey treats her in the wake of that news versus how Tyrion does. Maybe things are just starting to look up when the PW happens, and she ends up "escaping" with Littlefinger (she certainly has good reason to even if in the show she ends up liking Tyrion more than in the books, for fear of Cersei). That would add a nice element of tragedy to what will otherwise be a rather exuberant response to the PW - Sansa gets to grow as a character and then just as she's getting to a place where we think she might be able to find at least a certain amount of contentedness in her situation, events conspire to take that away from her again.

[mrs_serpounce]

With Tyrion now being the overall good guy though, I feel most people forget that it's still a horrid thing for Sansa to be married to him, which was a lot clearer in the books.

I can't say I agree wtih that wholeheartedly. Is it awful to be married to your enemy's family? Totally, but at the beginning of the books Sansa was *all* up ons to be married to Joff, before she found out what he really was, and even if he were a Baratheon and not a product of incest, he's still part-Lannister at the end of the day. Truthfully, I think that if she's gotta be married to a Lannister, having one that's not going to force her into sex, even when Daddy puts pressure on him? Not so bad.

However, I wouldn't mind for Sansa to be somewhat conflicted by the fact that while she hates the Lannisters and wants to get away from them, her Lannister's husband isn't actually that bad. Just to give her some emotion other than being clueless and manipulated by others at all times.

Agreed. This this this. I'm hoping that somewhere in there she actually starts thinking about the fact that Tyrion has protected her a time or six.

I will never say that Tyrion is Ned, but my issue with all the "whitewashing" critics is the idea that in the novels, Tyrion does indeed do some good things and protect some of the weak: thus, a true neutral.

I'm sure many will continue gnashing their teeth over this 'whitewashing' theme but I don't really care anymore, I like Tyrion the way they've changed him in the show just fine... much moreso than the way they've changed many other characters like Stannis, Catelyn, etc.

This.

[mrs_serpounce]

Y'know, with all the people complaining about how the show's portrayal of Tyrion makes Sansa look bad, I think there's actually a big opportunity here to conduct some character development if the show handles it properly. So, maybe viewers are critical of Sansa for not being nicer to Tyrion, because Tyrion is a pretty decent bloke on the show. Well, how about if in the next few episodes, pre-Purple Wedding, Sansa starts changing her mind on Tyrion, by way of comparison with Joffrey in particular - moreso than she did in the books. They could do a good job contrasting how the news of the Red Wedding affects her by showing how Joffrey treats her in the wake of that news versus how Tyrion does. Maybe things are just starting to look up when the PW happens, and she ends up "escaping" with Littlefinger (she certainly has good reason to even if in the show she ends up liking Tyrion more than in the books, for fear of Cersei). That would add a nice element of tragedy to what will otherwise be a rather exuberant response to the PW - Sansa gets to grow as a character and then just as she's getting to a place where we think she might be able to find at least a certain amount of contentedness in her situation, events conspire to take that away from her again.

:agree:

[Queen Elsa]

I read a tv review from the internet the writer hoping Sansa will see the goodness in Tyrion, just like how Shae sees it in him. I rolled my eyes. Well, the guy just swears he won’t hurt her. The words sound familiar, btw. The show really put some money to make the wedding scene fancy, but did not consider Sansa’s true feelings about this.

[six]

I read a tv review from the internet the writer hoping Sansa will see the goodness in Tyrion, just like how Shae sees it in him. I rolled my eyes. Well, the guy just swears he won’t hurt her. The words sound familiar, btw. The show really put some money to make the wedding scene fancy, but did not consider Sansa’s true feelings about this.

It would be more poignant if she does see the goodness in Tyrion, but she's still unable to let herself be happy because he's a Lannister, and the Lannisters are basically her captors. Who killed her father. And mother. And brother. If Sansa realised that this union could actually be a happy one for her, in a world where she's to be given away only for her status and value as a "thing", it would make it even more tragic. The one happiness she could have, is also the one she can't allow herself to have. And then she loses it all, anyway. I hope they're going down this road.

[Woman of War]

I agree, the Lannisters are definitely arrogant enough and Joffrey just insane enough to flaunt his parentage even if just in a private threat to Sansa. I guess my real question is, at what point did he change from believing Robert was his father to totally embracing the fact he's a product of incest?

And I guess I shouldn't have said the scene was 'perfection' since yes they did in fact go ahead and have her kneel anyways. I'm thinking this was done to make Tyrion look even more the hero since Joffrey took his stool. I'm sure many will continue gnashing their teeth over this 'whitewashing' theme but I don't really care anymore, I like Tyrion the way they've changed him in the show just fine... much moreso than the way they've changed many other characters like Stannis, Catelyn, etc.

Many likes to you, Envie.

That "whitewashing Tyrion" gets boring. And the biggest "whitewashing" was done to Sandor here when he, correctly, emphazised that he had saved Sansa from getting raped. Only the show never showed him threatening her with precisly that like in the books. And this so-called whitewashing in fact was an enrichment.

And I think that Sansa kneeled not only in order not to humiliate Tyrion but as well in order to defy Joffrey, since she that way she could spoil his joke. After all she had spoken up with some courage before Joffrey led her to the altar, she showed pride and did not do Joffrey the favor to tremble and cry.

In general I liked the more adult and stronger Sansa better than book Sansa, she was determined to get over with the bedding, like a painful but necessary visit to the dentist, but spoke her mind clearly, not like a trembling mouse when it came to telling her dislike.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

id prefer her to be unyielding and loathe everything about all of the lannisters militantly.

But that didn't even happen in the books. Sansa acknowledged that Tyrion wasn't bad to her when questioned by Lysa in the Eryie.

The actor needs to be of age, not the character they are portraying. That said I think they did alter the timeline to make her 18.

No, the actors need to play a character of age if that character engages in sexual acts. Martin confirmed all of this before season 1 began to explain why the actors were aged up.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And I think that Sansa kneeled not only in order not to humiliate Tyrion but as well in order to defy Joffrey, since she that way she could spoil his joke. After all she had spoken up with some courage before Joffrey led her to the altar, she showed pride and did not do Joffrey the favor to tremble and cry.

Agree 100%. I'd also point out that book Sansa actually was ashamed of having humiliated Tyrion, which is an emotion that would have been lost without that internal monologue when translated to the screen. Not having her commit an action (refusing to knee) that she quickly regretted is actually more consistent with her book character than showing a refusal to kneel without the internal monologue of shame/regret.

SHould also point out that immediately prior to the ceremony, Sansa herself tells Tyrion "you were kind to me." All those folks arguing that Sansa should be carrying all this rage against Tyrion are overlooking the fact that even bookd Sansa did not.

I

n general I liked the more adult and stronger Sansa better than book Sansa, she was determined to get over with the bedding, like a painful but necessary visit to the dentist, but spoke her mind clearly, not like a trembling mouse when it came to telling her dislike.

Again.

[Warhawk137]

Many likes to you, Envie.

That "whitewashing Tyrion" gets boring. And the biggest "whitewashing" was done to Sandor here when he, correctly, emphazised that he had saved Sansa from getting raped. Only the show never showed him threatening her with precisly that like in the books. And this so-called whitewashing in fact was an enrichment.

I like how they handle Sandor in the show. He's clearly a deeply troubled man, but in some ways he seems like one of the only sane people in Westeros, because he has what so many people lack - perspective. Seriously like half his screentime is spent pointing out to various people how stupid they're acting, and I enjoy every bit of it.

I would pay money if D&D would insert a line in Episode 10, post RW, where Sandor basically just says "Seven hells, is everyone on this continent a fucking idiot?"

[Kasrith]

No, he's not. There's been plenty of main characters just as bad or worse as book Tyrion who are loved by TV audiences. Nucky Thompson or Tony Soprano for example.

It's different when they are the main characters of the show, and who's story you are following throught. Hell you even 'watch' the show from their POV. This isn't the case with Tyrion, or any single character of GoT

[bobbybuilderton]

I think they might make Sansa and Tyrion mirror Catelyn and Jon.

In the way that Catelyn could deep down tell that Jon didn't do anything but exist but still couldn't bring herself to love him, I think we might see Sansa acknowledge that he's respecting her and defending her but still be unable to bring herself to love him. I think I would like it if they have Sansa mirroring her mother for two reasons.

1)Her mother is soon to be dead. We see that Ned lives on in his kids, and it'd be nice to see a bit of Catelyn surviving

2)It makes LF's weird obsession with her make even more sense. She not only looks like Catelyn but she also acts like her.

[julyleo]

I think what the show is trying to do is make what tyrion will eventually do to both his father and shae more of a slap in the face for tv audiences. I don't look at it as him being whitewashed at all. Honestly I prefer it,ultimately it will make him much more grey in the end.

[KSims1868]

Tyrion played the drunk scene well though I'll admit I expected him to get back to their room and be completely stone sober to show it was an act to protect both himself as well as Sansa.

Yes - I totally expected this as well. Surprised it didn't go that way.

[Warhawk137]

Agree 100%. I'd also point out that book Sansa actually was ashamed of having humiliated Tyrion, which is an emotion that would have been lost without that internal monologue when translated to the screen. Not having her commit an action (refusing to knee) that she quickly regretted is actually more consistent with her book character than showing a refusal to kneel without the internal monologue of shame/regret.

SHould also point out that immediately prior to the ceremony, Sansa herself tells Tyrion "you were kind to me." All those folks arguing that Sansa should be carrying all this rage against Tyrion are overlooking the fact that even bookd Sansa did not.

Yeah, I think where Sansa is at this point in the story is that she's grown enough and been through enough to realize, at least on reflection, that she's been wrong about a great many things, and that many of her preconceptions of what the world is like were just illusions, but not quite enough to have the willpower to let go of some of those illusions and change her actions as a result. So, in that sense, her actions often reflect the way in which she used to think of the world, even if deep down she doesn't believe some of those things anymore.

Apparent on the show too. Remember, in episode 6 or 7 (forget which), when she asked Shae if her family would be invited to the wedding? I don't think she really believed, in her mind, that it was a realistic question, but she asks it anyway because she's using those illusions to try to essentially stay sane in the face an extremely stressful situations. She may be clinging to the person she used to be, even after seeing what the world is really like, because she's afraid that if she stops doing that, she won't be able to find meaning in the world. Her entire worldview was constructed around this concept of a fairy tale kind of chivalry - for her to completely succumb to realism would be very damaging to her psyche, so she constructs a facade to pretend that what she used to believe might still hold true.

[silentwanderer]

What does everyone think about the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic going on?

Personally, I think he's a good husband and Shae seems to agree. However, Sansa is no Daenerys so I don't see how could she give this a chance.

Fortunately, by the terms Tyrion established, that doesn't have to be problem for him or Shae.

[Kasporio]

Peter dinklage is fuck..g great! But i have a doubt since season about "Shae ain't staying with Tyrion for money but the genuinely love him".

Loved the books Shae. Then i wondered "why would she betray him? jealousy for Sansa?" It's taking this way, which is highly predictable and boring. Well, w8 and see.

[Newstar]

Then i wondered "why would she betray him? jealousy for Sansa?"It's taking this way, which is highly predictable and boring. Well, w8 and see.

I thought that, too, but 3x08 seems to have resolved that, judging by the smile between Shae and Tyrion. I think they'll be pretty functional as a couple again until the PW, at which point Shae will likely betray Tyrion to save herself.

I'm more curious about how the escape plot will be reintroduced. Unlike in the books, where there was only one escape plan since ACOK and Sansa could just revert to the default when her marriage to Loras fell through and she was married off to Tyrion instead, there are two escape plans in the show: Littlefinger's first plan to take Sansa away with him when he departed for the Vale (which fell through), and the second plan, which we don't know anything about yet.

Since there is a second escape plan, it will have to be introduced at some point (I'm thinking 3x10, since it looks like Sansa and the rest of the KL crew sit out 3x09), by someone. (The "someone" is a bit tricky, since Littlefinger's still in the Vale, Dontos has been MIA since Season 2, Ros is dead, and Shae is an unlikely ally for Littlefinger since she trusts him about as far as she can throw him, but it will have to be someone.) So I'm guessing Sansa will be approached by someone in 3x10 with the new plan to get her out of KL.

[eyeheartsansa]

I think what you guys are calling 'whitewashing' is really just a matter of not being able to fit everything into the show. They don't need to make us 'like him more' because Tyrion is also quite likeable in the books... at least the first 3!

ETA: Sansa is doing nothing wrong her. She's not 'not being nice to him.' She is 14 and doesn't want to sleep with him, for perfectly good reasons. She doesn't categorically state that she never will.. she just asks 'what if?'

Both of them are being as nice as is to be expected. Tyrion could be a little less drunk, but can you blame him?