Luwin's sacrifice to the heart tree and the safety of the Stark Boys

[bemused]

I think all the business about the efficacy of blood sacrifice will turn out to be wrong, wrong , wrong.

I don't think blood is required by the gods in payment for anything. People adopt certain beliefs, and rationalize all kinds of behaviour to fit them. We haven't seen anything of the CoTF that says they practiced blood sacrifice. And we've yet to see anything of the sort among the wildlings, not having seen their religious practices yet . But we have heard something of wildling views on life after death and they fit pretty well with what little we know of those of the CoTF...All men must die and all women, too ... when you die you go down into the earth and become one with everything ..and in the CoTF version at least, one with the gods, part of the gods.. greenseers becoming one with the trees... ( the wildling burning of the dead is purely to prevent them being turned into wights ).

The bones in the CoTF's cave are consistent with a place of interment..the skulls in niches - marks of particular honor( there are examples of this kind of thing in our own world ) ..and of course , since they've been having to live there more or less hemmed in, the bones of their goats and the other animals that share their cave are there as well.

When Ygritte says the Wall is made of blood , she could easily be referring to all those who've lost their lives in the building process and in trying to get across it. She gives no details.

In his weirwood of WF vision..Bran tastes the blood... But just think for a moment of when one of Stannis' knights heaps scorn on those who worship something that dogs piss on ... I suppose Bran might taste that too, if he happened to be tuned in at the time. What would that pay for , I wonder ? If I was a weirwood, I'd much prefer having some of Tormund's potent mead poured out before me, rather than blood ;)....And does Bran taste it because he knows the taste of blood from being in Summer when he's hunting ?

I very much doubt weirwoods need blood , particularly , to sustain them. Rain and the nutrients from the soil (and everything that makes up the soil ) would probably do it , and probably be much more pleasing than either blood or dog piss.

When Jon takes the new brothers out to swear their vows at the weirwood and finds the wildlings resting there, they're all reluctant to shed blood in a sacred place , and seem relieved not to have to do it.

As I see it , there is real blood magic in ASoIaF.. because there's real magic. But if magic is real, there could be completely different spells under different belief systems that achieve the same results .

" There is power in King's blood "... The examples we've seen so far of "power" in blood is the skinchanging ability inherent in the Stark line and presumably , the ability to tame dragons in the Targaryen line..there may well be more to it that that, but whatever it is, it hasn't been revealed. And does it hold true for "made" kings as well as people of the bloodlines of former kings ?.. It may well be that the blood of people who carry some special attribute in their bloodline would increase the potency of blood magic if you were inclined to work it.

It's hard to glean much from Mirri Maz Dur's "Only death pays for life " example , because she was misleading Dany at the time...but it's likely the "blood" part of her ritual meant absolutely nothing. And it was not done in the name of religion , but magic.

In the case of the entrails in the White Harbour tree, that act was committed by aggrieved men out for vengeance , of course they might think their gods would be satisfied by what satisfied them.. But did they have it right ?

Given that the CoTF and Bloodraven were already taking such an interest in Bran ( and Starks in general ) I doubt the boys' protection had to be paid for with Maester Luwin's blood. They needed no prayers to convince them or remind them to preserve the Stark boys.

Luwin unquestionably displayed loyalty to the Starks. We don't know his background , but if there's truth in Lady Barbrey's accusation of meddling by Maester Warlys , either Benjen or Ned may have insisted they be sent a maester of Northern origins. Knowing he was dying , Luwin may have been returning to his "roots" and he may have said things that are worth knowing in front of the heart tree before Bran's party found him.

He may simply have wanted to die in less gruesome surroundings.. His death blow had already been dealt elsewhere. If Osha sped the process it would make no difference.

Sacrifice is something that some men believe pleases their gods ... and some priests may work magic and credit it to their gods... In the case of the "Old Gods" there is a consciousness present in the greenseers, and a kind of immortality in the trees... and we know the CoTF do work magic.. but we haven't yet seen them use sacrificial blood magic.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

So this may have been discussed before, and I know for a fact that whether or not Luwin actually thought he was going to be sacrificed to the Old Gods is a point of contention.

But when he had Osha give him the gift of mercy under the heart tree, is it possible that Luwin's last request to keep the boys safe has thus far been accomplished because he was used as a sacrifice to protect Bran and Rickon on their journeys?

thoughts?

I think that in an act of desperation, Luwin decided to "give magic a shot" in a sense. His whole world had been turned upside down and he knew that something magical was going on with Bran. So maybe when Osha promised to keep them safe, his sacrifice has made sure this will come true.

I always thought as much :)

[Ser Greg of House House]

That's why I keep coming back to the forums. Nice work!

[Dragon Roast]

Sacrifice is something that some men believe pleases their gods ... and some priests may work magic and credit it to their gods... In the case of the "Old Gods" there is a consciousness present in the greenseers, and a kind of immortality in the trees... and we know the CoTF do work magic.. but we haven't yet seen them use sacrificial blood magic.

Perhaps we should take a hint from Arya and her discussion of evidence with the Kindly Man (emphasis added):

“And what three new things do you know that you did not know when last you left us?”

“The Sealord is still sick.”

“This is no new thing. The Sealord was sick yesterday, and he will still be sick upon the morrow.”

“Or dead.”

“When he is dead, that will be a new thing.”

When he is dead, there will be a choosing, and the knives will come out. That was the way of it in Braavos. In Westeros, a dead king was followed by his eldest son, but the Braavosi had no kings. “Tormo Fregar will be the new sealord.”

“Is that what they are saying at the Inn of the Green Eel?”

“Yes.”

The kindly man took a bite of his egg. The girl heard him chewing. He never spoke with his mouth full. He swallowed, and said, “Some men say there is wisdom in wine. Such men are fools. At other inns other names are being bruited about, never doubt.” He took another bite of egg, chewed, swallowed. “What three new things do you know, that you did not know before?”

“I know that some men are saying that Tormo Fregar will surely be the new sealord,” she answered. “Some drunken men.”

We all have our favorite notions and new ideas (like the one from the OP) can get us thinking in all sorts of new directions, but in the end we only know what "some say" until the next books come out and resolve this, that or the other idea as fact, fantasy or crackpot.

As for the topic started by the OP, I think there seems to be quite a bit of sacrifice to the Gods mentioned in ASOIAF. They all seem to demand their due in one way or another and every religion seems to have its share of zealots. Deity devotions may be quite different from magic in some cases and almost the same in others. Even if the Old Gods do not require sacrifice, it may be that some men in Westeros believe that to be true and a source of magic and/or power.

Speculation about this seems useful to me as it seems quite possible from the text and that there is something more to the offerings than just the actions of crazed religious fanatics. Then again, there are a lot of crazed zealots killing folks, so it could be nothing more than that...

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Blood and weirwoods have been linked to many times to be a coincidence IMO. What role weirwoods will play in the future we can't know, but there is something there.

It's interesting that the Whispers has a weirwood sapling. How did it get there and when? Did somebody come along and plant it? Brienne's chapters seem like a random travelogue. Why would GRRM write these meandering chapters? What was the point? There must be clues planted all over the place.

[Eustace Osgrey]

"I don't think blood is required by the gods in payment for anything."

" There is power in King's blood "

- bemused

I would have to disagree, you can see how blood is used with the Old Gods and the new (mostly R'hllor). Craster's blood sacrifice presumably protect him and his wives/daughters from the harshness of Beyond-the-Wall, as well as the White Walkers and Wights that plague everyone else. All of the pre-voyage burnings by Melisandre give credence to the power of Valyrian blood magic since the books state that all Valyrian magic is rooted in blood and fire (perhaps the secret to Valyrian steel that was "lost"), especially since when she burned Ser Alester Florent (who claimed some decent from Garth Greenhand) they went unmolested from Dragonstone to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea at a time of the year when countless other fleets were being smashed by Autumn weather.

[Eogh]

Awesome thread! To Bemused, it's true that it is never explicitly stated that the Children used blood sacrifice or that the Old Gods require such, but the hints are there to be seen. One that comes up quite often in ASOIAF is the leaves and sap of the weirwood being compared to blood. Even in the first chapter of GoT, Ghost, who has a weirwood's colouring, is described as having eyes the colour of blood. The connection between blood and the magic of the weirwoods is pretty stong imo.

[Top Notch Balanter]

Brilliant catch OP it was something that never crossed my mind but makes so much sense

[Lady Evyta]

Regarding the blood trail as a symbolic motif, which Martin begins in AGoT and continues in the following novels, the prose definitely suggests that there are supernatural, if not magical, associations attached to blood. A few textual examples follow: Khaleesi eats a stallion’s heart to make her son “strong and swift and fearless” (489). Maester Aemon compares ravens to men: “Most ravens will eat grain, but they prefer flesh. It makes them strong, and I fear they relish the taste of blood. In that they are like men . . . “ (661). Mormont tells Jon: “All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten”.

Martin deliberately situates Maester Luwin beneath the heart tree in the godswood because it represents the mystical forces of the old gods and it represents the ancestry of the Starks, as Catelyn reveals in her first POV: “They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea”.

The maester receives an answer from the old gods whether or not his blood is of value to the tree.

I suspect the old gods send a wind to whisper through the weirwood’s leaves, guiding Maester Luwin to his salvation. The old gods answer ML’s prayers by gifting him the vision of Bran and Rickon “alive” before he dies. The maester does not know for sure that the little lords escaped Theon, and he is given proof before he expires. Also, through Osha, Maester Luwin will be gifted a quick death, the “boon” he requests. So, the old gods “may” in some “symbolic” way derive power from the blood, especially since blood is often the substance that nourishes supernatural beings, and the heart tree is definitely supernatural – if not magical.

Martin does enlist figurative language to humanize the godswood and heart tree, and examples follow: As Lady Catelyn steps upon the deep humus covering the godswood floor, the sound of her footsteps is “swallowed” up by a buffer: “A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet . . .” “Swallow” is a word associated with eating or drinking as well as the mouth, teeth, breath, and lips. In this instance, Martin personifies the godswood floor by attributing to it the ability to swallow. Yet if the floor “swallows” sound, it can swallow blood as well to feed the roots buried deep within the earth.

The spilling of blood accompanies Lord Eddard Stark’s first appearance in the novel A Game of Thrones as he assumes the roles of Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and executioner: he administers the King’s justice by wielding his Valyrian steel greatsword Ice to decapitate a deserter from the Night’s Watch. Martin employs figurative language by using a simile to depict the blood splatter resulting from Stark’s stroke of his blade:

“Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine” (15).

Comparing the blood to summerwine holds much significance in the scope of what is to come in this POV and others early in AGoT as well as insinuating what may come in later novels of the series. For example, at the feast held in honor of King Robert’s visit to Winterfell, the Starks serve summerwine to their guests and the Stark family enjoy imbibing as well, with Ned allowing his children a glass to commemorate such a momentous occasion. So, the summerwine symbolically represents “blood”, and the fact that the Starks are the hosts responsible for offering the beverage to the Baratheons and Lannisters, it might be an intimation that the Starks “eventually” [in subsequent novels] will serve “blood” to their enemies, with the blood symbology suggesting “revenge” and “death”. Moreover, the “blood” and the “summerwine” certainly allude to the Starks themselves “symbolically” drinking the blood, maybe through their direwolves or through the weirwood. Bran “tastes” the blood through the roots of the weirwood tree after a white haired woman beheads a “human sacrifice” with a sickle. Does this intimate a way to awaken the collective spirits of the Starks [and others] in the weirwood? Will Bran need to nourish his powers by tasting the blood of those who are sacrificed in the future?

The “blood connection” between Summer and Bran is more developed in Bran’s journey than the other Stark siblings. Summer is the force that sings beneath the open window of Bran’s sick room, causing his heart to beat stronger. But if the window is closed, Bran visibly weakens. It is after Summer kills the would-be-assassin, a bloody business, followed by Summer licking clean Catelyn’s defensive wound on her hand, that Summer finally is permitted to sleep at Bran’s side. This, along with Summer tasting human blood, definitely “strengthens” Bran and brings on the mystical appearance of the Three-Eyed Crow who demands that Bran decide to “die” or “fly”. Bran chooses to “fly”, and he awakens from his coma, the name of his direwolf on his lips: Summer.

Ned cleans Ice beneath the heart tree, a regular activity after Ned takes a life. Ned feels the presence of the old gods in the godswood, and Ned’s devotion to these nameless, faceless gods, along with his attention to honor, likely contribute to his offspring being chosen by the old gods to receive the direwolves that are a means for the children to awaken their warg spirits. After all, they already possess the blood of the First Men in their genetic profile, which appears to be a component in the process of opening the third eye and warging a direwolf.

Last, in AGoT, Maester Luwin’s blood is also shed in the crypts when Shaggydog ravages his arm. Even more suggestive is that Rickon licks the maester’s blood from his fingers: “Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers” (734). What could this mean? But I also find it telling that Bran describes Rickon as “wild as a winter storm” and Shaggydog as “wild as Rickon” (573).

I think blood means much and more in Martin’s series.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you Lady Evyta I really really enjoyed reading this post. Great work.

[aedalia]

This gave me goosebumps. I love it. Well done, OP.

[MidnightAurora]

can't believe how many people actually like this idea! thanks guys, my threads are usually pretty lame. :cool4:

I think it is stating the obvious to say that there is something supernatural regarding the Stark children and the history of their family but you have to admit that the children thus far, excluding Robb, have had some divine intervention when it comes to their own safety. Bran survives his fall, and Bran and Rickon both survive perilous journeys through the North. Most of the issues that arise for Starks happen when they are removed from the north and the Weirwoods. This theory at least explains part of that "luck".

You are correct and things happen when around the Weirwoods. I think Robb had some to or he spoke things to the Weirwood in Riverrun and some of his success in battle could be attributed to the heart trees. If he like Ned spoke/prayed to the heart/weirwood trees it would give a way for Bran to see things later and help his family. Arya was around the weirwood tree when she heard her father's voice reminding her she is a lord's daughter she is Arya of House Stark and stated when One wolf dies the pact survives. Arya almost succumbs to her "new" identity and the weirwoods use her father's spirit to remind her who she truly is and remember it in her heart. While with the BWB Arya is kept safe when she is at Heart Hill due to the weirwood stumps. Which also makes me think since there were 31 of them that is where the ancient pact was signed/made. Even the House of Black and White had part of weirwood tree for its door.

I also think Theon was right and the Godswood particularly the one in Winterfell belong to the Starks hence he would not go in them/near them. Out of all the Maesters I liked Luwin and Aemon the most because they gave their all to their service/house and cared.

I was also thinking what last counsel him gave Osha before he passed was other than they must be separated for their own safety. He must have seen something in Osha to confide in her like Mormont and Aemon saw something of potential in Jon Snow. I thought I was the only notice that good things happen when the Starks are around Weirwoods and when taken away their luck changes. I really like this thread.

[James Arryn]

Brilliant.

[zamieo]

I don't think Martin had that in mind when he wrote that passage, but it's always a possibility. Then again, if it was a sacrifice, I don't think GRRM would hide it from us. Some people tend to think that they can theorize about things that GRRM hasn't told us, either through the books or through interviews or fan correspondence, and blindly believe in their theories, even though there's a very small chance of the theory really being true.

[Rahgh Neqaj]

I think all the business about the efficacy of blood sacrifice will turn out to be wrong, wrong , wrong.

I don't think blood is required by the gods in payment for anything. People adopt certain beliefs, and rationalize all kinds of behaviour to fit them. We haven't seen anything of the CoTF that says they practiced blood sacrifice. And we've yet to see anything of the sort among the wildlings, not having seen their religious practices yet . But we have heard something of wildling views on life after death and they fit pretty well with what little we know of those of the CoTF...All men must die and all women, too ... when you die you go down into the earth and become one with everything ..and in the CoTF version at least, one with the gods, part of the gods.. greenseers becoming one with the trees... ( the wildling burning of the dead is purely to prevent them being turned into wights ).

The bones in the CoTF's cave are consistent with a place of interment..the skulls in niches - marks of particular honor( there are examples of this kind of thing in our own world ) ..and of course , since they've been having to live there more or less hemmed in, the bones of their goats and the other animals that share their cave are there as well.

When Ygritte says the Wall is made of blood , she could easily be referring to all those who've lost their lives in the building process and in trying to get across it. She gives no details.

In his weirwood of WF vision..Bran tastes the blood... But just think for a moment of when one of Stannis' knights heaps scorn on those who worship something that dogs piss on ... I suppose Bran might taste that too, if he happened to be tuned in at the time. What would that pay for , I wonder ? If I was a weirwood, I'd much prefer having some of Tormund's potent mead poured out before me, rather than blood ;)....And does Bran taste it because he knows the taste of blood from being in Summer when he's hunting ?

I very much doubt weirwoods need blood , particularly , to sustain them. Rain and the nutrients from the soil (and everything that makes up the soil ) would probably do it , and probably be much more pleasing than either blood or dog piss.

When Jon takes the new brothers out to swear their vows at the weirwood and finds the wildlings resting there, they're all reluctant to shed blood in a sacred place , and seem relieved not to have to do it.

As I see it , there is real blood magic in ASoIaF.. because there's real magic. But if magic is real, there could be completely different spells under different belief systems that achieve the same results .

" There is power in King's blood "... The examples we've seen so far of "power" in blood is the skinchanging ability inherent in the Stark line and presumably , the ability to tame dragons in the Targaryen line..there may well be more to it that that, but whatever it is, it hasn't been revealed. And does it hold true for "made" kings as well as people of the bloodlines of former kings ?.. It may well be that the blood of people who carry some special attribute in their bloodline would increase the potency of blood magic if you were inclined to work it.

It's hard to glean much from Mirri Maz Dur's "Only death pays for life " example , because she was misleading Dany at the time...but it's likely the "blood" part of her ritual meant absolutely nothing. And it was not done in the name of religion , but magic.

In the case of the entrails in the White Harbour tree, that act was committed by aggrieved men out for vengeance , of course they might think their gods would be satisfied by what satisfied them.. But did they have it right ?

Given that the CoTF and Bloodraven were already taking such an interest in Bran ( and Starks in general ) I doubt the boys' protection had to be paid for with Maester Luwin's blood. They needed no prayers to convince them or remind them to preserve the Stark boys.

Luwin unquestionably displayed loyalty to the Starks. We don't know his background , but if there's truth in Lady Barbrey's accusation of meddling by Maester Warlys , either Benjen or Ned may have insisted they be sent a maester of Northern origins. Knowing he was dying , Luwin may have been returning to his "roots" and he may have said things that are worth knowing in front of the heart tree before Bran's party found him.

He may simply have wanted to die in less gruesome surroundings.. His death blow had already been dealt elsewhere. If Osha sped the process it would make no difference.

Sacrifice is something that some men believe pleases their gods ... and some priests may work magic and credit it to their gods... In the case of the "Old Gods" there is a consciousness present in the greenseers, and a kind of immortality in the trees... and we know the CoTF do work magic.. but we haven't yet seen them use sacrificial blood magic.

:agree:

Just look at all the different cultures in our world that have given blood sacrifice to some gods yet most of them disappeared. I would be very careful when relying on the believes of superstitious people who don't really know that well how magic works or what their gods can do, need to have to get things done or might want as "service fee" to get things done. Even in that story about Varys loosing his balls we don't know whether that ritual actually succeeded or whether it was just a rich guy trying obscure methods to postpone his death by a day or two. If on the other hand Bloodraven, a greenseer, a person with known magical abilities, was asking for a blood sacrifice in order to be able to perform something and he's indeed able to extend beyond his normal abilities - that would be reliable proof. (Except that we don't know his "normal" abilities so far.)

Yes, Maester Luwin might have tried to give magic a shot and Osha might have tried to perform a blood magic ritual but whether that has any real impact is entirely sepculative. Maybe he was just a dying man who wanted to close to his/the gods and maybe Osha was just putting an end to his suffering and trying to ease his psychological suffering as well. Or Maester Luwin was trying to pull a psychological trick on Osha, using her religious beliefs to make her vows about keeping Bran & Rickon safe more binding.

[First of My Name]

Interesting idea...

[First of My Name]

sorry, double post

[The Silver Otter]

Love it!

Now the whole thing happened before the heart tree so BR absolutely saw it, He helped bran and co to reach him in the cave,

if Rickon is in Skagos, I believe he is, than BR might have helped him, consider Skagos is also an island Rickon and Osha would need help to get there.

Lets not forget the Unicorns or Man eating Skagosis (according to myth).

Since Weirwood roots go deep and are throne for Greenseer, mayhaps a blood sacrifice made in front of a heart three prolongs the life of a Greenseer.

Giving BR a little more energy to go on for a while more.

Roose in ADwD says "Only the Wierwoods ever see half of what happens on Skagos" so BR and maybe even Bran might have an eye on Rickon.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

<snip>

Yes, Maester Luwin might have tried to give magic a shot and Osha might have tried to perform a blood magic ritual but whether that has any real impact is entirely sepculative. Maybe he was just a dying man who wanted to close to his/the gods and maybe Osha was just putting an end to his suffering and trying to ease his psychological suffering as well. Or Maester Luwin was trying to pull a psychological trick on Osha, using her religious beliefs to make her vows about keeping Bran & Rickon safe more binding.

I think maesters and The Citadel are followers of the Seven, so the fact that Maester Luwin somehow propelled himself into the godswood while mortally wounded is really quite significant. Instead of trying to get to the sept that Ned installed for Catelyn, where he would actually be closer to the site of his gods and was probably a shorter distance to travel to in the first place.

Great find, OP and I hope we see in the future that this was indeed a powerful act on Luwin's (and Osha's) part.

[Dead Wolf]

Nice catch. This could be why the wildlings turned back from the keep at Queenscrown. Wex Pyke might know whether or not Luwin was sacrificed, but until someone asks the right question, we'll never know