Dumbest Moments in ASoIaF

[LordPathera]

This is not a bash thread or at least it's not intended to be. ASoIaF is a great (dark) fantasy series and is up there with some of the best in the overall genre.

But like any good story, it has some stupid moments in it. That doesn't that the series sucks, but these moments just kind of come and you sit down thinking, "what?" They show up, slap you and then leave...but you're so confused by what just happened that it doesn't register that you just got slapped until a few hours pass. Nonsensical character quirks, irrational decisions, narrative oddities, and other stuff that doesn't ruin the fun for you, but it does make you snicker when ever you come across it.

It can be a situation that you thought could be easily avoided even within the context of the story, a moment that you just seemed inappropriate to the story, the actions of a character that makes you facepalm or anything else about the series that threatens to have you slam your head on a wall.

So here's some of mine, 6 of my top 12 dumbest moments in ASoIaF:

6) Stannis' stubborn methodology

I get the gist that Stannis is a character that I'm meant to like. He has a sympathetic backstory, a moral and uncompromising grounding, and he's one of the prominent opponents to the ever-popular Lannister coalition.

Problem is that he's way too stubborn.

Jon Arryn dies while he and Stannis were investigating Cercei's children and Robert's bastards. What does he do? Tells no one about what he discovered and holes up in Dragonstone for close to year without saying a word to Ned or Renly.

Does he even warn Robert? No. He sits in Dragonstone and leaves his brother surrounded on all sides because Robert chose Ned as Hand instead of Stannis. Essentially, his jealousy caused him to sit back and watch his brother die.

Robert dies and both Baratheon's declare themselves kings. Do they heed Cat's advice to put aside their squabble and join against the Lannisters? No. Stannis puts his full faith in Mel's Shadow babies and in any other situation, would have committed strategic suicide by facing Renly's army.

Gets his army and sets off for King's Landing. Does he place competent, experienced and trustworthy Ser Davos in command of his fleet? No. He gives command to an inexperienced idiot who gets nearly the whole fleet burnt by wildfire.

In fact, the only reason that he's in the North now helping against the Boltons is so that they'll support his claim. The only reason he came to the Wall was to make Castle Black his new forward command center. He even moved into the Lord-Commander's room without so much as thanking Jon or the other Crows for protecting the realm against 20,000 wildlings and that host of White Walkers that nearly wiped out the whole order.

I'm supposed to like him? I guess he's okay and not gonna lie, he's only remaining king that I'm hopeful for until someone better comes up with a decent chance of winning the Game of Thrones and being a good/decent king. But that's not much considering the alternatives.

5) Sansa in AGOT

Before anyone starts, I know that she's 11. But when your younger sister and younger brother exhibit more common sense and intelligence then there's clearly a problem. The incident on Kingsroad should have tipped her off on how nasty Joffrey and Cercei are considering that Joffrey nearly killed her sister, had an innocent butcher boy murdered and Lady was put down to appease the Queen.

This tip clearly flew over her head.

She insists on being married to Joffrey when her father suggests terminating the match and when I believe the conversation went something like this:

Ned: When you are older, I'll find you a worthy match. Someone brave, gentle and strong-

Sansa: I don't want someone brave, gentle and strong! I want him(Joffrey)!

Arya: "Laughs at dumb sister"

She's meant to be naive and I get it. But confiding in the woman who had your wolf killed for something that wasn't your House's fault...that's not being naive, that's being downright stupid. And it helped get her father killed.

It's a good thing that she grew up after all of this and actually has a few subtle moments that shows that she's indeed a Stark...otherwise, I'd ask why she's even in the story.

4) Trial by Combat

So far, I'm convinced that it has a 2/3rds chance of condemning the innocent to die and the guilty to live because that's how it looks. Out of the 3 trials shown in the story, only one trial of this manner had a "just" conclusion. How is this a viable form of judgement? And since the guilty can defend themselves, it guarantees that that a skilled warrior will be likely to win regardless of their guilt.

Think about it. What if Jamie had demanded trial by combat in Riverrun? He'd mop the floor with any warrior that challenged him and walk away smirking with the morale of Robb's faction plummeting deeper than a Lannister Gold Mine.

Honestly, who thought that Trial by Combat was a great way to judge someone's guilt or innocence?

3) Cat's hatred of Jon Snow

Before someone starts, yes I understand the situation from Cat's point of view. Ned went to war after marrying her and comes back with a bastard son without even telling her who the mother is and insists on raising him at court. Okay, I can see why she'd be angry with Ned. In fact, without going into details, I was in her shoes to some degree and the situation angered me.

Here's the difference, I got over it and she didn't.

Why does she spend her energy hating this kid whose only crime was being born? What threat does he pose by breathing? As he's a bastard, he can't inherit unless legitimized and that's reportedly rare, so what's wrong? Why are you still angry Cat? Do he threaten to take Winterfell for himself? Does he try to make himself better than his siblings? Or are you resentful that Ned had a moment of weakness and Jon was the by-product?

There's even a point where she flat out objects to Robb's suggestion to legitimize Jon even though she had no viable alternative than for Sansa+Tyrion's child to legally inherit Winterfell. And it's all based on her own personal hatred of Jon despite Robb's poignant reasoning behind the proposal. In fact, all of Cat's fears are further disproven when Jon refuses Stannis' offer for legitimization because he doesn't want to rob Sansa of her heritage.

Apart from this, Cat is a likable and sensible character...except when she released Jamie Lannister and arrested Tyrion Lannister because Baelish basically sicked her on him to start a war across the realms.

2) Renly's Death

As I said in another thread, Renly's death...just seemed...convenient?

A plot device that would enable Renly's army to be divided between "more interesting" parties and to demonstrate the very real threat of Melisandre's magic. It's just...if Mel is capable of producing unstoppable shadow assassins then why doesn't she send one to kill Tywin, Robb and Joffrey? Supposedly, it drained too much life-force out of Stannis so he can't provide more than two and Davos refused. But what about the other 2,000 men under Stannis' command? She couldn't make one from any of them?

Instead, Mel never uses the Shadow assassins again.

Plus, it's very anticlimatic and not in a good way. True, GRRM wants readers to be afraid for their characters, but this was ridiculous. There was no tension, no build-up, and no foreshadowing (that directly references how Renly dies)...a shadow just shows up and kills him. Really GRRM? That's really the best way that you could've killed off Renly and show off Mel as a legitimate threat?

Fireball? Mind-control and force Loras/Brienne to kill Renly? Make him touch a poisonous Spindle of a spinning wheel? Owned by Stannis in combat? Stray arrow? Poisoned by sleeper agent Margery during the bedding ceremony?

Death by shadow is just...weak...even Robert got a better send-off.

1) Cercei's "so-called" cleverness

Cercei is reportedly clever, but just has no way of holding on to power once she gets it.

I'd call that generous.

Any action and plan of her's that has worked has only done so because it fits into the plans of better players in the Game of Thrones or due to sheer dumb luck (aka the plot says it worked). Keeping her relationship with Jamie and their children's parentage a secret until recently? Combo of luck, lack of common sense for everyone who should have noticed something and Littlefinger's ladder. Her plan to kill Robert? She got lucky. Outsmarting Ned Stark? Littlefinger had his own plan. Wildfire during the battle for Blackwater? Tyrion's the one who effectively utilized it. Taking Dragonstone? Loras happens to really hate Stannis.

Now how about her screw-ups? Screwing Jamie in Winterfell? That's begging for someone to notice and this is made worst by Bran's crippling. Telling Ned that his son was crippling because he witnessed her Twincest? Good job, now he's definitely going to tell Robert about the twincest. Joffrey's sadism? She clearly fails as a regent and a mother. Revival of the Faith Militant? They overthrow her. Framing Tyrion for Joffrey's death? Causes Tywin's death. Screwing Lancel and who knows who else? Jamie dumps her. Bullying her young son for not being evil? Her own house turns against her.

And she's meant to be one of the main antagonists of the whole series?

Littlefinger is an ambitious antagonist, Varys is a subtle antagonist and I suppose Cercei is meant to be a subtly ambitious antagonist. Except that she's about as subtle as Thoros' "Phoenix Down" ability and I'd say that Joffrey's title as a vicious idiot can be reworded for Cercei as an ambitious idiot. She's nothing more than a pawn for everyone else and she's in complete denial over it.

Yet, she's meant to be clever. If I had to pick between the two, I'd say that Joffrey is more intelligent than his mother. And yes, I say that in full awareness of boy's capabilities.

So despite my list, I still love the series and I'll likely preorder Winds of Winter just to see how many awesome moments can be added to the already lengthy list of things to love about the series.

So how about you guys? Anyone else have a dumb moment in the series that they'd like to share? Something that just really distracts you or just makes you shake your head?

[Sansa_Stark]

*reads all of points 3 and 5*

I'll give you a flame shield. And I'll help defend you if possible.

[I am of the Night]

I am of the night.

[Nictarion]

I am of the night.

I really don't think that line is as cringe worthy as people make it out to be. I hope Darkstar proves Doran right, and shows he is really a badass.

[Sansa_Stark]

I really don't think that line is as cringe worthy as people make it out to be. I hope Darkstar proves Doran right, and shows he is really a badass.

Personally, I believe Darkstar is working for Doran....

And Mrycella is already dead.

[Russo]

I think you're about to cop it OP.....

[Ramsay B.]

Cersei's master plan of getting rid of Robert by getting him drunk while hunting, and the fact that it actually worked.

[Minsc]

Why are you still angry Cat?

Probably, because it is still being rubbed in her face constantly thus it is hard to forget about.

Now, what I want to know is how isn't Ned's reign as Hand not on this lists seeing he is constantly screwing up with some obvious mistakes.

You also have the Good Masters of Astapor selling their entire army away for something that wasn't a sure bet, all while not having a failsafe to protect them from being attacked with their own army.

Or how Mance just decides to spare Jon.

[Ahura Mazda]

We are all dumb and stupid in our lives, emotionally dragged here and there.. only that we continuously justify our behaviour with an ex-post rationalizing mindset.

I believe these elements make those characters feel much more real than without, and I like tasting it.

And as someone said in the past: "It's easier to look at the speck in your brother's eye than notice the log in your own eye", or something like that.

[ache]

. Her plan to kill Robert? She got lucky.

I think she had more than this plan on the boil, she seemed to just grasp at every opportunity to put Robert in harms way and the boar + wine = death was the one that worked. Cersei had previously forbidden Robert to participate in the melee, knowing exactly what effect that would have, he may have been mortally wounded then if it were not for Ned talking him out of it. I really don't think she was a slouch in the 'ways to kill Robert' department.

[Sansa_Stark]

I think she had more than this plan on the boil, she seemed to just grasp at every opportunity to put Robert in harms way and the boar + wine = death was the one that worked. Cersei had previously forbidden Robert to participate in the melee, knowing exactly what effect that would have, he may have been mortally wounded then if it were not for Ned talking him out of it. I really don't think she was a slouch in the 'ways to kill Robert' department.

There is also the possibility that she had contingency plans to kill Robert according to Varys.

Not sure if I believe it though. She has that much people on payroll to kill Robert?

I can't see Cerse ibeing that trustful.

[Arya kiddin']

Here's the difference, I got over it and she didn't.

What the actual fishcake?

1. Tell me how terribly insulting it was for you to live in the same house with a nagging reminder of your husband's infidelity. What does it even matter if you got over it, you're just a distant observer?

Her trying to stop Robb from legitimizing Jon was because she has studied her history, she said that it did not end well for Aegon IV to legitimize his bastards, the Blackfyre Rebellions plagued the Targaryens for generations. How does this suggestion not make sense?

[Eira Seren]

Aerys Oakheart's maudlin suicide by combat. Also the part where he keeps beating himself up for breaking his vows with Arianne (again). It makes me sad that he can't just be honest with himself. He liked it, and he's gonna do it again, and he would rather do that than keep his vow of chastity. No need to throw one's life away over it.

[Sansa_Stark]

What the actual fishcake?

1. Tell me how terribly insulting it was for you to live in the same house with a nagging reminder of your husband's infidelity. What does it even matter if you got over it, you're just a distant observer?

Her trying to stop Robb from legitimizing Jon was because she has studied her history, she said that it did not end well for Aegon IV to legitimize his bastards, the Blackfyre Rebellions plagued the Targaryens for generations. How does this suggestion not make sense?

1. Either get over it or blame the husband. Picking on the innocent party that had no choice in this matter just shows how low IQ Cat is.

2. No. Aegon IV legitimized all of his bastards while having children. Robb was at risk of dying any battle and the kingdom ends if he does. Legitimizing Jon ends up continuing the Stark line. Robb was desperate, Aegon already had an an heir.

[Minsc]

1. Either get over it or blame the husband. Picking on the innocent party that had no choice in this matter just shows how low IQ Cat is.

2. No. Aegon IV legitimized all of his bastards while having children. Robb was at risk of dying any battle and the kingdom ends if he does. Legitimizing Jon ends up continuing the Stark line. Robb was desperate, Aegon already had an an heir.

1. No, it doesn't show that it she has a low IQ it shows that she is human.

2. And picking someone who cannot inherit anyways means Robb decision was stupid anyways. Moreover, Robb was clearly planning on having children before he died.

[mindchap]

Since this hasn't been locked yet, Dunk, as much as I love the guy, not realizing who Plumm was just blew my mind. Or at the very least he could have thought, "wait he shouldn't know about that". :)

[Arya kiddin']

1. Either get over it or blame the husband. Picking on the innocent party that had no choice in this matter just shows how low IQ Cat is.

2. No. Aegon IV legitimized all of his bastards while having children. Robb was at risk of dying any battle and the kingdom ends if he does. Legitimizing Jon ends up continuing the Stark line. Robb was desperate, Aegon already had an an heir.

1. You do realize the "picking" part has been discussed to death, SSM's have been quoted, textual evidence provided, and if you still think it makes sense, then by all means, continue on.

Robb's decision had its merits for that time because he trusted Jon, Cat didn't. As simple as that. She doesn't have the liberty to read Jons POV as we do, you see. Also, while politically correct, the way it was being done would've dishonored the Starks forever. (Still may happen unless Rickon arrives). Robb wanted to "bribe" the NW if I recall correctly by giving them more men so that Jon can inherit. Does this breaking of vows sounds very honorable? I don't think so.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Since this hasn't been locked yet, Dunk, as much as I love the guy, not realizing who Plumm was just blew my mind. Or at the very least he could have thought, "wait he shouldn't know about that". :)

He was Dunk, drunk as a skunk. Haha

I'm sure he couldn't even comprehend that he it threatened shortly after that. In which he responded by puking all over his shoes.

[Annara Snow]

This is not a bash thread or at least it's not intended to be. ASoIaF is a great (dark) fantasy series and is up there with some of the best in the overall genre.

But like any good story, it has some stupid moments in it. That doesn't that the series sucks, but these moments just kind of come and you sit down thinking, "what?" They show up, slap you and then leave...but you're so confused by what just happened that it doesn't register that you just got slapped until a few hours pass. Nonsensical character quirks, irrational decisions, narrative oddities, and other stuff that doesn't ruin the fun for you, but it does make you snicker when ever you come across it.

So here's some of mine, 6 of my top 12 dumbest moments in ASoIaF:

I thought this was going to be about moments that are dumb - i.e. that don't make sense, but from your list it looks like you just named some moments when characters are acting dumb? I don't see how any of these are "dumb" from the storytelling perspective. Cersei is not supposed to be clever, what gave you that idea? Stannis is just Stannis and not a political/military genius. Trial by combat is an tradition in Westeros - is it stupid, yes, but so are so many more of their traditions. It's stupid in-story, it's not stupid from GRRM as a storyteller. Cat's dislike of Jon is an emotional reaction, not a rational one, and it's one that makes her a more complex, flawed character. Sansa was acting like an infatuated 11-year old whose father just took away her favorite toy and told her she couldn't do something she wanted to do, without explanation, what's so odd about that? There have been many more moments that you could call "dumb" on characters' parts. Like a lot of King Robert's behavior, Ned's decisions, Cat's trust in Littlefinger, Tyrion's illusions about Shae, etc. etc. But none of that makes it stupid writing. It just makes these characters flawed and three-dimensional.

If I were to list things that I found stupid and unconvincing, I'd go with:

- the scene when Bran overhears Jaime and Cersei in AGOT: this is one of the few things that the show did better, because it happens in a moment. But in the book, he listens to them talking for some 10 minutes and even gets closer to see who they are, even though it's crystal clear from what they're saying that they can only be the queen and her brother. This makes Bran look really stupid, which wouldn't be a problem if he was meant to be stupid; but he's supposed to be a smart kid, quite mature for his age, from everything else we see of him.

- the big fuss they made about Robert's bastards and their black hair and how they are supposedly dangerous to Joffrey's claim because they would be a proof that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were not his but Jaime's. Leaving aside the fact that it doesn't make sense from real world genetics perspective, and assuming that the genetics in that universe work differently, how was that going to prove anything? A lot of people were going to believe the rumours and would say "yes, look at them! They look nothing like Robert!" but others would just shrug and think that it's a silly rumour started by Stannis in order to steal the throne - and would point out that there's nothing strange or uncommon in children looking like their mother and her side of the family, rather than the father. It's not like anyone is going to think that Ned wasn't the real father of Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon just because they looked like the Tullys, or that they're going to suspect Catelyn of sleeping with Edmure or Hoster. To be fair, Catelyn does make the same point in ACOK in her internal narration, so at least the series is acknowledging that it's a flawed concept.

- the lie Jon Snow gives Mance as the supposed reason for leaving Night Watch and joining the wildlings. Mance is a smart guy, and this was supposed to be a good lie, but it's really unconvincing and stupid. What does Jon's treatment as a bastard in Winterfell have to do with NW? In NW, a bastard can rise high and become even the Lord Commander - it's why he joined them in the first place. Again, this is a rare instance where the show did it better - the reason Jon gives Mance in the show for being disappointed in the NW is much stronger and makes a lot more sense, it's something you could perhaps even believe as a reader if you didn't already know Jon was going undercover under orders from Quorin.

[Sansa_Stark]

1. No, it doesn't show that it she has a low IQ it shows that she is human.

2. And picking someone who cannot inherit anyways means Robb decision was stupid anyways. Moreover, Robb was clearly planning on having children before he died.

1. Human, and incredibly stupid and petty.

2. "I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child....we tried often enough, but I'm not certain." And "If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me."

I am pretty sure we have been over this. And Robb being stupid doesn't take away from Cat being stupid when were only comeback is "BUT BUT I DONT WANT JON TO INHERIT"

1. You do realize the "picking" part has been discussed to death, SSM's have been quoted, textual evidence provided, and if you still think it makes sense, then by all means, continue on.

Robb's decision had its merits for that time because he trusted Jon, Cat didn't. As simple as that. She doesn't have the liberty to read Jons POV as we do, you see. Also, while politically correct, the way it was being done would've dishonored the Starks forever. (Still may happen unless Rickon arrives). Robb wanted to "bribe" the NW if I recall correctly by giving them more men so that Jon can inherit. Does this breaking of vows sounds very honorable? I don't think so.

1. You know what I meant. She held the grudge against the wrong person cold looks may not count as abuse I know. I am well aware moments like "It should have been you" was a one time special thing, but Cat undeniably did hold a grudge and aimed it at the wrong direction. That's why I accuse her of having a low IQ and no sense.

2. Cat didn't trust Jon because she's a moron. She has seen him for 14 years at WF and knows he's the most loving of the Stark "siblings".