Cashless Society

Wow, for the 4th episode in a row, they've crafted a damn near perfect episode only to be marked down by some weird creative choices in writing and/or execution.

Lots of parallels and callbacks were present in this episode. Starting with the opening shot pushing in and panning overhead the Driftwood Throne and then cuts to a close-up of Rhaenys. It makes her look smaller and isolated, as if her will to live has faded significantly. Which makes sense given that she's buried both her children. Contrast this with Otto by the Iron Throne where the image is reversed. Overhead pan, to pull out shot and finally, a wide shot of him on the throne. It highlights how far he's come and how close he is to achieving his goal. The things people get up to when the proper authorities are incapacitated and can't seat their thrones.

I loved the shot of Alicent in the small council that was made to look like she was in a prison, with the acts of her chosen heir conflicting with her new found guidance in religion. Love is the death of duty, as maester Aemon says? Or is it duty is the death of duty, as Jaime implies? The shot also harkens back to a similar shot of Viserys in the small council meeting in the pilot episode. Although for him, it's trying to please everyone one, naming Rhaenyra as heir that puts him in his metaphorical prison. 

Then there's Daemon and Aemond. Him collecting the dragon eggs and followed by his giddiness has quite a few similarities to Aemond claiming Vhagar, which is appreciated. Someone complained about the duel between the two of them being unsatisfactory as there wasn't a narrative arc that preludes the event. But this is where the show can really improve upon the source being doing visual parallels and contrasts to each character. They already look alike, Deamon is a leaner while Aemond has proper posture, the aforementioned dragon claiming/egg collecting scenes, Daemon was super cocky in his tourney melee with Criston (he actually attacks to Criston head on), while Aemond was super focused on outsmarting Criston (using the momentum of the flail and attacking on Criston on the weaker side) and he cares nought about tourneys, Daemon overtly antagonising Otto during the small council meeting, Aemond antagonising his nephews through the thinnest veneer of a compliment possible. I look forward to seeing what else they can come up with in future episodes.

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Tomorrow the Hightower's land their first blow. They force you to your knees, and I must stand alone. 

So Rhaenys basically tells Rhaenyra that the marriage proposal is pointless as the Hightower's will side with Vaemond anyway, which can only happen if Rhaenyra's children are declared bastards. Rhaenyra heeds her prediction and convinces Viserys to make a now rare appearance. I get the feeling that Rhaenys sides with Rhaenyra because she sees that Rhaenyra understood her words and was able to act by foiling the Hightower's plans. A sign of improvement in Rhaenys' eyes given the lack of tact Rhaenyra displayed when she tried to school Rhaenyra on The Order of Things.

Viserys' grand entrance was the most comical thing this show has ever put to screen. But it was magnificent. The choice to have grandly bombastic yet sweetly poignant music blasting through the scene as Viserys struggles to walk across the throne room sent me through a wave of emotions. Give Paddy, Ramin and the sound mixers all the Emmy's. And Daemon helping his brother up the throne steps and putting the crown on his brother's head with Viserys look up at Daemon with such gratitude? That's the best shot of this entire franchise, i highly doubt anything is going to top it.

That shot of Rhaenys with the candles in the back, is the show suggesting that she will be the one to feed Vaemond to her dragon? I really wanted to see Rhaenyra do that. Another fight breaks out while the royal family has dinner, at least no one was injured this time. And the knights who came to put a stop to this where Targaryen household guards, not the forever useless KG. Are we sure that Meryn Trant and Boros Blount aren't members of the KG at this point in history?

While the acting during the petition scene was well done, I really loved that they opted to act like it was a stage play, why the hell did they use shallow depth of field? You've got all the actors in the same scene, you've got blocked the scene really well, you've got everybody delivering a great performance, you've got the camera positioned to capture all of this, but you use a lense where only one person at a time can be seen clearly? Instead of frequently cutting back and forth between the actors for reaction shots, just use the deep focus lense so we can see their reactions while the primary actor is speaking. Bad form Geeta, bad form on this scene.

I haven't liked how much the show has been leaning into the Long Night prophecy that just reminds of how badly GoT botched everything up, but I could have forgiven all of that if they properly executed Alicent's mix-up. If Alicent had gotten the idea to consider Aegon as the rightful heir based on the conversation she had with Viserys in episode 3, became more convinced of the idea when Rhaenyra deceives her, gets Otto fired and proclaims her bastard children as true-born sons and this mix-up sealing the deal, I would have thought it brilliant. But instead Rhaenyra and Alicent genuinely kiss and make up instead of it being just pretend for Viserys' sake, and then have her slip back into usurper mode based on the mix-up was just cheap storytelling. The writers can do better than this.

I gave it an 8/10.

43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Honestly, I thought that the "strong boys" toast was a bit underwhelming. I expected it to be a grand moment with an epic background score and everything, but it was pretty solemn. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

This is actually one of the aspects of the show that I'm enjoying. The narrators don't have that much access to the interior lives of the characters and so present events that are commonly known to be grander than what they actually were to compensate. 

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Marrying Daemon made peace with the greens even more unlikely. This guy just beheaded someone without warning. No parent would ever put their children’s fate in his hands.

And the greens made peace even more unlikely by allowing Vaemond to petition his claim in the King's court.

8 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, was it just me, or did it look like Ser Crispin Cole was sparring with Aemond as played by Crispin Glover for a second there?

I've pent the past couple of months who adult Aemond reminds me of.

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Okay, from this episode it seems like Rhaenyra believes Laenor was murdered. So she was not in on the fake death plan? This is odd. 

She's maintaining the façade that that Laenor is dead.

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What was her lie?

A lie by omission as Rhaenyra is continuing to mislead Rhaenys in believing that Laenor is dead.

7 hours ago, farerb said:

Does Rhaenys really have an authority to accept or reject marriage offers for Baela and Rhaena? Daemon is their father, shouldn't he be the one to the decide whom they marry?

That was not the aim of the scene. Rhaenyra is trying to have the Velaryons as an ally, to do this she has to curry favour with Rhaenys. Both of them know that Rhaenyra's elder sons are bastards and that Rhaenys would rather have Baela inherit Driftmark. The marriage proposal is meant to be a compromise that allows one of her actual descendants to inherit Driftmark while another inherits the Iron Throne. 

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

Otherwise someone needs to explain what is was up with his health. 

I was under the impression that his condition slowed down due to the better treatment that Orwyle was giving him as opposed to Mellos' treatment. This is what gave him the extra ~16 years. Had Mellos still been in charge, Viserys would have died sometime in the 10 year time jump.

7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It really looks like Leprosy to me.

Yeah, the actor confirmed it in one of the inside the episode features.

7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Another travesty. 
 

Alicent’s king to be is a rapist, and Alicent gaslights the victim like a thug. 
 

Meanwhile over at Dragonstone saint Rhaenyra raises three (four) pure hearted children, one who wants to learn Valyrian to be a good king even though he has many years to go. 
 

Meanwhile the Greens are practicing elder abuse just in case you couldn’t figure out they were the bad guys. 
 

Then hero Daemon comes out and kills the guy who calls his girl a whore like a true ally. Oh and in case you still don’t know Alicent is evil they put a lot of religious iconography because ya know, religious woman = bad.  
 

Oh, and that ending just nukes any case for character motivation. They couldn’t come up with a reason for Alicent to take the throne so they decide to go with a misunderstanding over their stupid prophecy BS that no one who is watching HotD for the first time will understand. 
 

Wonderful acting wasted on a garbage script.

I don't know why anyone can't react to your posts, but I just wanted to let you know that this comment is absolute comedy gold.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see the point of the scene in the beginning with Daemon stealing the eggs and giving them away to the Dragonkeepers.

Daemon wasn't stealing eggs, he was collecting them, as Rhaenyra is pregnant with their third child. I also think the scene is meant to show how Daemon acts around people who value him against those that don't (at least according to Daemon). Compare this act with him stealing the dragon egg (chosen by Rhaenyra) meant for Viserys' son.

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Let's say that we both have children who got in a fight today. My child said some things that were uncalled after doing something that wasn't necessarily wrong and that your child - angered and/or humiliated by what your child said - threw the first punch.

Over the course of this fight, my child fell off a jungle gym and became paralyzed.

Later, at the hospital, the cops show up and it is decided that there is nothing that they can do (it's a civil matter...)

Would it have been appropriate to snatch a police officer's gun out of their holster and start shooting at your child? Or to pick up a scapel or some surgical tool and charge at you?

Perhaps appropriate is not the proper word I'm looking for, maybe logical, unsurprising, or natural.

9 hours ago, EggBlue said:

opportunity was right there in ep3. Otto could mention that he worries about what others may make Rhaenyra do to her half-siblings with Alicent completely rejecting the idea. only for her to rethink it in ep5. 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

nope. in that episode Otto talks about Aegon becoming king but he doesn't express any worries about what might happen to Aegon and what lords may expect from Rhaenyra to do . it's not even remotely implied that there could be any legitimate concern for Alicent's children until ep5 which gets all hyped up in ep6. I think for this fear to work Alicent should reject it first and then goes back to thinking about it and questioning it after Rhaenyra's "betrayal of trust" . furthermore , they had laid the ground work for Alicent to think Rhaenyra might not want the throne anyways which could make her more open to the idea of king Aegon roughly from the beginning . 

Wouldn't this then make both Otto and Alicent idiots? Alicent would already be alerted to Otto seeking to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra, making his every action suspicious from Alicent's point-of-view. When he tells Viserys of Rhaenyra's activities in the brothel, Alicent wouldn't need to go speak to Rhaenyra about as she could reasonably conclude that this is Otto scheming. Alicent also comes across as unlikeable too early, as instead of warning her friend of the scheming going on she does absolutely nothing about it.

On 10/7/2022 at 5:53 AM, BlackLightning said:

It was smart thinking.

But with the way that the camera was maneuvered, and the shots were cast and edited, both Aemond and Aegon had clearly heard it from Alicent.

Why Aemond snitched on Aegon is beyond me, but Aegon DID NOT tell Aemond.

Aemond wasn't prepared for questioning so he had to think on his feet. Aemond thinks only to answer the question directly, unlike his brother who opts to go around the question. The scene shows that Aegon is not a complete idiot like some people think, when contrasted with the earlier conversation with Aemond about his betrothal to Helaena.

Aemond names his brother because Aegon is the only person he thinks won't face any repercussions for making such accustomed. If Aemond says he heard some servants gossiping, he would be asked why he would believe the words of some lesser beings who have nothing better to do than make shit up, plus they would probably be executed for treason. Despite the threats made to his cousins and nephews, I highly doubt Aemond would actually follow through on them, which also leads me to believe that he isn't comfortable with the deaths of some random people being his fault, at least not at this point in the story. Naming Criston Cole would have him sent to the wall, executed or having to fight in a trial-by-combat. I'm pretty sure Aemond wouldn't want to risk losing his very excellent trainer, who also happens to be his mother's sworn shield. Imagine what Alicent would do to Aemond if that happens? Obviously, Aegon is not going to name his mother or grandfather as it will become clear that that they plan on usurping Rhaenyra. So Aegon is the only person he can name that won't suffer consequences and is known for not caring about becoming king.

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For the record, I understand how Alicent feels. It can be extremely maddening and frustrating to deal with people like that. But snatching a dagger off of someone's person and charging at a child in public...that's beyond the pale.

Her child got maimed, her response seems reasonably appropriate. Many parents, even today, would demand the same.

On 9/26/2022 at 4:21 AM, TormundsWoman said:

Knives come out, bitches! All the knives.

Looks like you were an episode too soo.

Best episode of the season so far. This is the stuff I've been waiting for.

Seawater vs Fire. I love how they're making Vaemond out to be the outsider of the family. All that talk about Velaryons being of salt and sea is completely opposite to the rest of the family wanting to of fire and blood. Corlys's trying to get a descendant on the throne, his children and grandchildren being dragon riders, Laena wanting to die a dragon rider's death, Vaemond is completely out of touch with the going-ons of his family. It makes total sense why Daemon just burst out into laughter.

Hand turns loom, spool of green, spool of black. Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. Nice visual symbolism going on with Helaena trapping the spider foreshadowing how Larys's machinations in the coming war will ultimately be what leads to his own death.

The boost in confidence that Aemond got after mounting Vhagar was monuments, you can see it in his walk. As a matter of fact, I would have forgiven the terrible day-for-night filming if they opted to have Aemond walking around like Vince McMahon.

And the highlight of the episode, everything from the kids fighting to the showdown  inside the castle hall. I'm truly impressed with how Miguel and co were able to shoot such a convincing scuffle with child actors. There are many other shows and films were this is sloppily done with adult actors, but here, the shot selection, editing, score and sound effects help bring the script to life by not shying away from showing the tension, escalation and consequence of the event.

The contrast in childcare between the greens and the blacks. Puplicly slapping and shouting at your eldest child because he wasn't the to protect his younger sibling and no one is there trying to console Aemond one-eye. Meanwhile Rhaenyra and Rhaenys comfort their children and grandchildren respectively. Love the shouting of the kids when asked to recall what happened, as well as Alicent attempting to deflect attention to the questioning of Aemond by bringing up the whereabouts of Laenor.

I also noticed the sharp look that Aemond gives to Rhaenyra when mentions that Aemond ought to be sharply questioned, as if he's the only one who understands the implications of Rhaenyra's words. It seems as if the green's aren't as smart as they think they are, not having planned for Viserys to question the boys where they heard the rumours from. Smart thinking by Aegon to just regurgitate his mother's reasoning for concluding that their bastards instead of selling her out like Aemond did him.

Alicent losing all composure and letting her emotions guide her in getting justice for Aemond was very believable and the messiness I'm all in for. Nice touch separating the room between the eventual greens and blacks. Given his placement at this moment, and the various reaction shots between him and Cole, I've got a suspicious feeling that Harrold Westerling will take on Lord Beesbury's role of pushing Rhaenyra's claim when Viserys dies and be killed by Criston Cole who will then succeed him as Lord Commander, anyone else feeling the same way?

Forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law with the blade in the foreground and the fire in the background. A thousand opinion pieces could be written about what that imagery means to different people, but instead it's the very predictable "I miss Cersei, Dany, Margaery, Sansa" article. I hate pop culture critics.

I'm pretty surprised that most viewers got tricked into thinking that Draemyra killed Laenor as I felt it was too obvious what was going on. As for how I feel about the change, I'll reserve my judgement until later plot events occur. 

On the negative side, that day-for-night nonsense was hideous to look at, although the complaints on the Internet are rather amusing. Miguel should have gotten Guillermo Navarro to photograph those scenes, he's one of the few how can do this sort of thing properly.

Gave it a 9/10.

16 minutes ago, slant said:

Corlys is too good... there is no way that the whole "History remembers names, not blood" thing makes any sense whatsoever. 

Yeah it is an iffy subject to go into, I don't wanna get into it, but just wanna say it was not convincing at all. 

Young Griff is the Pisswater Prince confirmed. 

11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

He was in jail the whole time though. We didn't first meet his parents and then siblings and have them never mention him. 

It was still a little weird because he'd never been mentioned, but it's not the same thing. 

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was in jail for 17 years, people would defintely not act like he's been around the whole time, but if you mean they acted as if he was a part of their background, sure, which is fine, because he wasn't germane to the story and I really don't think most people would spend every day thinking about a cousin who got the book thrown at him and is doing a long stretch in jail.

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

It will be rather jarring if we hear nothing at all about him through half a season when he should exist, and then suddenly he's there next season, and with a dragon to boot. But I can understand if that's because they literally didn't know what they were doing during the S1 filming.

Is it anymore jarring than Steve Buscemi showing up 5 seasons into The Sopranos and everybody acting like he's been around the whole time?

38 minutes ago, farerb said:

It seems that Daeron is in fact cut from the show considering no one has mentioned him.

36 minutes ago, Ran said:

I suspect they are leaving themselves room to have him in, but I also think that if they are cutting Addam, they are probably cutting Daeron too. They've broken down the second season and scripts are already written, so I think casting will reveal all... or maybe there's some reference in the last three episodes.

I highly doubt that Daeron has been cut, the opening credits show that Alicent has 4 children, they wouldn't do that if they plan to cut him. I'm still with the assumption that Daeron is in Oldtown and that he will be The primary point-of-view character for the Reach portion of the war in the following seasons.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This episode had some of the best writing and acting, and some of the worst directorial and showrunning decisions. Dear lord.

Aemond rode a dragon once and immediately became an asshole LOL  

There were so many unintentionally funny moments in this episode. Aemond clinging to the handles of his saddle, Luke saying "I don't want it," the endless shots of the kids pouting, and of course, that ending. Laenor not only let his parents believe that their son was murdered and his children lose their father, he also managed to escape into anonymity--despite having a dragon. Yep, Laenor kinda forgot that he has a dragon. Imagine if D&D wrote this 

I changed my mind. Aegon is the best character on the show. He's the only one who knows how to have a good time.

Gotta agree with the contrast in quality between the writing and direction. Those day-for-night scenes were hideous to look at.

But it makes sense that Aemond would be like that, getting payback on those Velaryons for the stunt they pulled at the dragon pit. And I doubt him clinging on was unintentional comedy.

Wouldn't Leanor bringing Seasmoke along raise tonnes of suspicion?

Cheese's name has to be thrown in the hat for best character as well. The guy has avoided doing his actual job and is instead roaming around the Red Keep and feasting on the crown's dime.

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I greatly enjoyed the aftermath scene in the hall with both Rhaenyra and Alicent trying to get the upper hand. It was pretty much a prelude to the real Dance, and the shot at the end with the battle lines clearly drawn as Viserys walked away enforced that. There was some significance there with Rhaenyra staring at Aegon’s Dagger beyond just the threat of the steel, with the fire in the background, but I’m not sure exactly what.

I interpreted it as a reminder why Rhaenyra is adamant on being the heir, with her dad telling her about Aegon's prophecy and all that while also drawing attention to her compartmentalising, will the prophecy still hold of bastard children sit the throne? 

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Wait, why did Daeom pay Qarl if Daemon did the killing? Wouldn't they have just consulted Laenor first and he would have convinced Qarl?

Laenor and Qarl are going to need some funds to be living it up in Essos. 

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

If that is the case, then Corlys's line about history remembering names not blood becomes meaningless. I would think that line pretty much told us what sort of man Corlys is and what he will do with regards to his legacy and succession. 

Why does the show have to support the characters' viewpoint?

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

That seems to be the consensus and I'm probably wrong, being stoned and maybe having missed some key bit when I looked at my phone.

However as I said Daemon seemed real sinister with Quarl. As someone else pointed out if they're all in on it why go to Quarl at all? Why doesn't Rhaenyra approach her husband? Why does Rhaenyra object that she cares for Laenor? Why does he he resentfully row his own boat in the end? Why do they end on that a twist-reveal?

I think what's confusing people is "set him free" which I took as Daemon saying kill him, not being literal. 

 

Edit: the only thing that throws me is Daemon killing the guard, which I initially took as him clearing the way for Quarl to get in there. But Laenor isn't dressed in his uniform at the end or anything.

Clandestine doesn't necessarily mean sinister. If they had shown Rhaenyra speaking to Laenor, then they would have ruined the twist ending. Laenor resentment could be that he had trick both his parents into believing that he is dead, made worse by the fact that it is so soon after the funeral of his own sister. Also, he has to get out of town quickly without being seen, those waves are coming in strong and the weather looks really cold.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Granted, it's weird that Daemon wanted witnesses if Laenor was supposed to escape. He could have killed anyone in his place. What if more than one person showed up?

These aren't world-ending plotholes, but they are the kind of thing people crucified D&D for.

Everyone will go along with what a witness says. Just killing and burning a random person and claiming its Leanor will raise suspicion and result in an investigation, which invites many unforseen scenarios that may end up exposing the plot.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - can anyone explain the new opening credits to me?

The three guys in the end are Rhaenyra's elder sons, of course, but who else is in the credits and how do we know it?

Daemon, represented by his dragon-styled helmet, Laena, although I'm not quite sure what her symbol is supposed to mean, and the dragon twins, represented by dragon eggs.

On the walls, we also see what I interpret as the rivalry between Alicent and Rhaenyra's children (3 dragons and 4 watchtowers)

3 hours ago, Ran said:

When I first watched that scene, I said out loud, "Criston's a mad man" or something to that effect. He's so crazy with his hatred of Rhaenyra that he pushed and pushed and seemed almost pleased by getting the hell beat out of him.

It's true that Harwin's reaction can very easily be construed as his defending his honor from a lie. But his father is also right that the tension caused by the rumors, true or not, are going to lead people to question whether he can serve in an impartial manner. 

Now, why Harwin didn't go from there to formally challenge Criston Cole for besmirching his good name, I don't exactly know. I suppose one can argue that the Kingsguard, being in service of the king, can't be challenged in duels of honor because their honor is the king's. But does this then mean that Harwin could claim that Viserys had allowed his own man to besmirch his honor, and was then party to it? You end up in an odd situation.

And know I totally want see what Martin will make out of such a scenario, maybe in a Dunk and Egg novella. 

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

Still the guy is a gizzled no nonsense dragon expert right?  All the dragons are in westeros. Like did he get those burns in an unrelated battled as a mercenary in Volantis?

Maybe, but the clear shorthand implication is that he's been burned by dragon fire and also become an authority on dragons. To me this suggests he's been in kings landing for a while, and probably understands the language. 

Yes, but he'll mostly be interacting with dragons, instructing new recruits on how to train the dragons, and communicating with members of the royal family; who all speak Valyrian anyway. Since, he spends most of his days speaking Valyrian, and the crown is willing to provide him with a translator, why bother communicating in the common tongue?

I, for one, actually enjoy the choice the showrunners made. Instead of the character being nothing more than a plot device, they've gotten me to think about how this aspect of society actually functions, which creates a more believable world.

2 hours ago, slant said:

Now get what the mulvaleys flower signifies, it has nothing to do with Braavos at all, it is a reference to Alicent being out of place and far away from home.

The way Larys plucks it and sniffs it... not sure what that is supposed to indicate though. 

Alicent is now under the influence Larys.

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Or that the king is no God and can't change thousands of years of tradition on a whim.

But a bunch of lords totally can.

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I thought he killed Joffrey to protect his secret, not because he was being taunted.

Why can't it be both?

28 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that Alicent and Criston get more hate for being unlikable douches than Daemon gets for killing his wife in cold blood so he can be free to remarry.

Television is a visual medium, the audience will have a stronger reaction to what is shown versus what is said or implied. It's very easy to forgot offscreen deaths, but seeing someone brutally assault another person to death? The audience is never going to forget that.

Miguel Sapochnik, praise be. No offense to Clare Kilner, she did some brilliant work but Miguel is on another level.

A fantastic opening scene to reintroduce us to Rhaenyra. Sounds of breathing followed by a soft cut showing Rhaenyra giving birth, a hand-held one-take with shallow focus. An intimate affect that allows us to empathise with Rhaenyra even before the audience is made fully aware that it is Rhaenyra. D&D could certainly learn a thing or two about using one-takes effectively, not just for coolness sake. The use of a sombre variation of the leitmotif originally heard when Rhaenyra and Alicent first entered the Red Keep, when Rhaenyra and Laenor present Joffrey to Alicent to highlight the fractured relationship between the episode's titular characters.

The make-up on the frail Viserys is extremely brilious, somebody ought to put him out of his misery. But it draws a brilliant parallel to the rot that is infecting King's Landing (Larys, Criston, Aemond). I also loved the framing of Harwin during his scene with his father. Between the wall and the pillars, showing how trapped he currently is with the walls closing closing in. Just a simple way of enhancing the story with visual metaphors.

The only weak link for this week was the Laena and Daemon section. There's a lot of substance that could be mined, such as Laena's attraction to Deamon stemming from the similarity he shares with her father (ambition and a DIY drive) and how, now in Pentos, Daemon seems to be completely done with that aspect of his personality and has resigned himself to being an over glorified sellsword. It's very easy to see how such a relationship would sour, but not enough time was given to flesh it out. Perhaps this could have been included in the hypothetical missing episode.

Gave it an 8/10.

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

I like the grizzled burnt dragonkeeper guy but really dude you only speak Valyrian? I feel like that's like meeting someone today who only speaks Latin. 

I don't understand Alicent saying she was shocked the strong boy's eggs hatched. Like you realize you're not a Valyrian either? It seems to me all the kids have basically the same amount of Targaryen blood. With the time jump and casting change she already seems far less sympathetic. 

I really don't know what to make of Aegon pounding off at what I think might be the window Tommen jumped from. The actor is nailing it though. 

I just don't understand what they were going for there. Exhibitionism? A sexual attraction to architecture? And that his mom didn't even address it

Perhaps he's originally from one of the free cities like Volantis where Valyrian is a default language?

But her children aren't barstards like those strong Velaryon boys.

It's pretty similar to the scene of Roman Roy in season 1 of Succession. A metaphorical "Fuck The World, I'm royalty and I can do anything I want with absolutely zero repercussions"

3 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Actually felt bad for Aemond. Was weird seeing Aegon pulling a prank with Lucerys and Jace. The kids could have all been friends

I'm just loving how their showing that kids are, for the most part, willing to be friendly with each other and it's mainly adult influences that develop and mold their opinions and biases. 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Do people really think of it like that though? For me it's "the blacks' cause is just, greens are usurping against the previous king's expressed wishes." and then individual characters get judged on being good or evil, and hopefully are some mix of both. 

Another factor is how many narrative elements that Martin utilises in the telling the story heavily paints the  Blacks as the underdogs. And most readers associate underdogs as protagonists and the protagonists as the heroes. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

(1) I don't see ASOIAF going in that direction for a few reasons. (2) SH and JB don't have a set timeline and are permitted reinvention from time to time. (3) Some characters in westeros can have their backstory further clarified, but all the material for their lifespan is mostly settled and must exist in that framework. Which is part of the reason why these future projects with exception of Snow try to branch out away from the main series. 

(3) Holmes can solve a thousand different cases with no conception of time or aging, just as Bond might save the world three hundred times whilst starting back at point A with every film/book. 

(4) Characters like Harley Quinn are first developed based on the cast we know and follow and become part of the psychological drama starting with Batman and going off from there. The characters have a web of rivalries that build up and do themselves have a certain style that is reminiscent of Batman and his rogue's gallery with recognizable outfits and personality disorders.  

(5) With ASOIAF we have to take characters unrelated (outside of ancestry) to the main cast who lack any specific color or identity apart from being true to a gritty realistic medieval world. What connects them is Martin's writing style, and Martin isn't going to be around to write all these stories in an ever expanding universe.  

(6) There is history, but a lot of the world is just references to our world with a more stereotypical lens. Exploring Essos and further east is just the same as taking from our own history and then crafting a gritty story with vague magic. Any of which can be great or enthralling depending on the writer, but could work just the same without the subheading "GOT." 

(6) Old Valyria is an exception, but how much more people want to watch of dragon lords with an ethnic supremacy before it grows old is a big question. GOT had dragons, but they were a small piece to a bigger tapestry.

(7) Because either the characters have to be iconic with a brand identity or the setting. In ASOIAF the characters have brand power, the setting (in my opinion) does not given how generic it is conceptually. 

(7) ASOIAF has more or less told complete character arcs for its main series and now must rely on the world to be the basis of its connective tissue, and I don't see how that will work. 

(8) I don't think anything about the world or its philosophy are enough. The sigils and family names are too vague and superficial while the gritty cynicism is far too common to stand out as an identifiable trait. 

(9) Star Wars for example has the Jedi and Sith code with both organizations having identifiable trade marks and styles. The red lightsaber and outfits automatically entail a certain mood and psychology whereas seeing a Stag on someone's sigil might as well fall into a number of fake medieval houses.

(6) We'll see. Personally I don't see how it can have much longevity if it just subsists off of a bunch of showrunners who want to write their own medieval fantasy. But that is just my opinion. I didn't see HotD being as popular as it was, and I guess I would reason it has to do with the proximity to GOT which only just came to end three years ago. 

But again, who knows, I could be wrong. 

(1) So there isn't anything stopping HBO with continuing the stories for surviving characters from the original show.

(2) Why can't  ASoIaF characters be permitted reinvention from time to time?

(3) And where exactly does their lifespan end? Because when characters become part of a franchise, that lifespan happens to not just be where the story ends, but also the characters death (and even then, retconning and remakes happen). So taking the Stark children again, a bunch of writers can tell a million different stories of Arya's travels west of Westeros; Sana's suitors, conflict resolutions with the Northern Lords, whatever she wants to do with the Wall; Bran's reign, succession crises etc. These stories can theoretically go on until they're 100 years old.

(4) Characters like Corly Velaryon are first developed based on the cast we know and follow and become part of the psychological drama starting with season 1 of HotD and going off from there. The characters have a web of rivalries that build up and do themselves have a certain style that is reminiscent of GoT and its morally complex characters with recognizable outfits and character motivations.

(5) Didn't Wonder Woman start off like this? Guardians of the Galaxy? The Mandalorian?

(6) So, basically like every other franchise in existence?

(7) The culture and politics of the setting of ASoIaF constrain the motivations and actions of the characters, this what give them their nuance. So long as the writing is guided by that, then the franchise can keep creating iconic characters.

(8) Other franchises don't even dip their feet in the pool compared to the lake ASoIaF is swimming in but apparently this isn't enough for audiences? How are the names and sigils vague and superficial? And how common is this so call "gritty cynicism" exactly?

(9) And what of the direwolves? Weirwood trees? White Walkers? Iconic castles such as the Eyrie, Red Keep, Winterfell? People's unease when a wedding occurs? The iconic catchphrases?

Come on, there's really no argument that can be made that would preclude ASoIaF being as successful as any other franchise. 

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

(1) My point isn't to argue the merit of Martin's story, but the longevity of the world as a cinematic universe. Say ASOIAF had the best story ever and the best characters ever. It wouldn't change the fact that those characters have had their entire narrative written and the specific story structure of the books has already been adapted. 

(2) For HBO to continue, they can't just fall back onto the same people so they have to invent or adapt new stories unrelated to the main one. And the actual world is not something with the same iconic classification as it is more just a generic medieval backdrop with some oriental elements.  

(3) With Star Wars for example even without Luke or Anakin, you have a specific moral philosophy behind the jedi, the sith, the republic, etc. that can be built upon into an interconnective web of media. 

(4) With comic books the characters reinvent themselves. You can writer a hundred origin stories to Spiderman, a hundred deaths, and have a similar number of canonical universes. In ASOIAF you only have one so once Jaime's story is told there is nothing else to do with him. 

(5) All they have is writing new stories with new characters which really amounts to the same as writing new medieval fantasy. There would be hints and easter eggs as to the main series with banners, sigils, and familiar surnames, but in the end that is all superficial, and the only thing keeping hardcore fans connected is Martin's writing, and a cinematic universe would have to exist beyond his lifespan. 

Take the Gates of Xi animated film. The location is just handwaving about ancient china. So you have a medieval story about ancient china with maybe some fantastical elements. How does it feed into a collective universe or at least into an identifiable world that can fit the brand "Game of Thrones"? Game of Thrones does not have a tone or message that is very specific to its show. It is dark and gritty but many write dark and gritty shows. Its claim to fame is killing off main characters but that is running off the memory of the red wedding with nothing to compare of since.  

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, I wrote this in another reply but I'll give it again. All those property have either iconic characterization, styles, morals, or aesthetics that draw people to the brand and form an interconnective structure regardless of what rendition the media is produced in. 

(3 + 4) Comic books have the same characters reinvent themselves time and time again. There is a sort language to their mannerisms that is identifiable regardless of actor or animator (like James Bond) that allows them to exist in a hundred canonical settings. Spiderman can have a hundred origin stories and a hundred deaths, the character is the brand not a specific narrative. 

(5) In ASOIAF, take a fan favorite character (say Jaime Lannister). When Jaime Lannister dies his story is over. He can only be adapted once and isn't the basis for new content or more adventures. The media produced thereafter aren't going to be about the characters we loved or hated in the main series, it is going to be about random people in a generic world. 

(3) Which brings us to the philosophical basis for the universe. Star Wars even without Anakin or Luke has a specific moral code given to the Jedi, the Sith, and the republic which alongside their specific fashion allows for a breadth of stories within the expansive galaxy to be told in a breadth of time periods. If you read about the old republic, or play games set in that era, it is distinct but it is still star wars with the same organizations like the Jedi Order, the Bounty Hunters, the Sith, and the Republic fighting with more or less the same motivations that can be exploited by the narrative in similar ways. 

(3) ASOIAF doesn't have lightsabers, it has swords. It's moral façade is heavily plot driven, with the shocking deaths driven less by a coherent sort of nihilism but by a will to surprise. The generic European style of Westeros has nothing that is not the standard for all of Tolkienesque fantasy besides its grimness, and grimness is everywhere in television today. 

(6) The question is, if you subtract Martin from the writing (which if it were a cinematic universe is a prerequisite) what about his world outside of the story being told in ASOIAF merits the cultivation of singular identity across multiple productions? You can have the brand "Game of Thrones" but that will only play up to nostalgia for so long especially as the characters and stories will have nothing to do with Game of Thrones outside of a few name drops and familiar sigils. 

It has dragons I guess. But are dragons enough to sustain a global brand that can produce hundreds of stories with little to no underlining basis for connecting them outside of the heading or subheading "GOT"? I don't know, but I find it very hard to believe.  

(1) The original stories for Sherlock Holmes and James Bond had their stories written and adapted. That didn't stop new writers from crafting their own original stories for those characters. HBO already has a Jon Snow sequel in production. What's to stop them from doing the same for the Stark children? Daario Naharis? Even Drogon can get an animated sequel.

(2) That's literally how every franchise works. Harley Quinn was a character introduced in Batman: TAS and now she's a character in her own right that can headline a franchise. How different is this to the Sea Snake prequel that's currently in development? Wonder Woman is a character that was created separately from Batman & Superman, how different is that from the Nymeria prequel that is also in development?

(3) Within Essos & Westeros you have a multitude of cultural beliefs and moral compasses that can be built upon into an interconnective web of media. If HBO does a Valyria prequel, it potential sequels will have Valyria's culture play a key role, e.g. Braavos'  hatred of Slavery, Volantis' romanticism for Old Valyria, Ghiscari reclaimation. Even in Westeros, prequels can track the cultural and institutional shifts from the conquest (how did the Reach Lords react to some servent house becoming liege Lords?) right up to Tywin undoing the reforms implemented by Aegon V.

(4) And what is wrong with reversing the roles? Instead of having the same character in a gundred different settings, why not have the same setting with a hundred different characters?

(5) So, basically like every other franchise in existence?

(6) Is the same not true for every other cinematic universe? Star Wars without Lucas? James Bond without Broccoli? Toy Story without Lasseter/Doctor? MCU without Feige?

21 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Like seriously chill out. I said I don’t understand why HotD is doing so well and explained why I think it’s only a bubble and why I don’t see it having longevity. 
 

Im not telling people what to believe, I’m just giving my opinion. Lay off other people once in a while and stop assuming the worse.

The compartmentalising required to believe that ASoIaF cannot be a successful franchise despite having the attributes of all other successful franchises is mind-boggling.

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean the longevity. Game of Thrones worked at the time because it was coming off of fantasy like Harry Potter and LotR as an adult version with a gripping story. 
 

Now it’s assets are a world without much to differentiate itself, the standard dark self serious tone, and stories separate from the main series 

Is this any different from any other mega franchise like Star Wars, Marvel, DC, Toy Story, The Disney Princesses, Barbie, James Bond etc?

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

A lot of you probably won’t like this article, but it touches on some things that have been discussed here in the past, such as whether grimdark is still appealing, and how there can’t be any progress in terms of injustice because this story is a prequel.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/tv/hbo/house-of-the-dragon-women-game-of-thrones-fantasy-tv/

The only thing I got out of this article was " Why become a pop culture writer if you can't accept the underlying mechanics of pop culture?"

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m in a weird position where I think this show is both good and overrated. It’s weird that so few people are willing to criticize it. 

That's a sign that most people are enjoying it. It's only when people get disappointed and start disliking a few too many aspects do they start putting on their critic goggles. 

It's a 6/10, which is a shame because it could've easily been a 9/10 if it wasn't for those 2 ridiculous moments that bookend the episode.

I really liked seeing Drfitmark, using St Michael's Mount was a smart choice. I particularly love the guided layout as well as how Corlys' trophies decorate the interior, it's rather inviting whilst also letting you know that he is an ambitious man. Nice contrast to the deliberately intimidating Red Keep.

I'm not too miffed on the green dress making its appearance a little earlier than expected. After all, it's not like the show has setup the party of the Princess and the Queen's party. Instead they've solely focused on the deteriorating relationship between the two people involved. Also, it's not like most people pay attention to costume design anyway. 

Which brings up another disappointing aspect. It's mentioned that the Velaryon kids and Rhaenyra grew up together, which comes as a surprise to show-onlies as this is the first time they've ever interacted on screen together (not to mention the two sets of actors/actresses they've gotten to play their younger and teenage selves whilst Rhaenyra has looked the same throughout all this time). I hate having to explain unnecessary story beats to show-onlies.

13 hours ago, dbunting said:

So why did Cole attack him? I mean I know he approached Cole and told him he knows about what he did with the Princess but to attack him in front of everyone? I guess they are trying to show us how unbalanced he is?

My interpretation is that Cole is currently at his most insecure state. He's humiliated that his lover will only treat as a mistress.

The queen dismisses him after making his confession and he now he has a million ideas of what she might do. Will she have him also confess to the king? Will it be public, in front all the noblemen of the realm? Will she keep his secret and use blackmail him for whatever schemes she planning? Will she use him for sexual favours?

And then some Velaryon knight tells him he knows his secret as well. Unfortunately, Joffrey does not know that Criston and Rhaenyra have ended things, so instead of taking what he says for it is (an offering of an alliance given that they're supposedly on the same boat), Criston interprets it as a an outright threat. Which puts him even more on edge. 

So now Criston has no agency on how things are going to pan out, he gets desperate and, given he doesn't know any other way to handle the situation, he just wants to lash out at anyone. Joffrey, being the least valued member of the celebrations (at least in Criston's eyes), is the best person he can take out all his emotions on in that moment.

Hey @Zorral, why do you consider Daemon to be one of the smarter characters?

Daemon personally killing the Lady Rhea? And I thought Euron personally killing Baelon could not be topped.

I really wish Bobby B was running things,"Stop this madness in the name of your king" and a murder would not have taken place during a guest reception ceremony.