karaddin

I'd made peace with the 6 episodes until I read that and saw it cost us Anna and Prax and now I'm annoyed lol

It's also running alongside Wheel of Time for the next 3 weeks which I imagine makes them want to space it out further. I guess the last season of a show also has less need to hook viewers than earlier in it's run. 

Hardly definitive but a Google search for "Expanse season 6" shows this Friday for ep 1 and the 17th for ep 2.

So the Goths were really just another Holden

12 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

I think Okoye stated at one point that this was a definite concern? The only thing that seemed to save humanity was that humans, and the rules of our universe, are as strange and incomprehensible to the goths as they are to us, so they had no idea what would or wouldn't work to kill us. So all they could do was randomly tweak things and see if that stopped the gate activity. They couldn't see humans directly or even really know what it actually was they were doing to our universe.

You could say they were simply seeing buttons and pressing them to see what happened?

8 minutes ago, TheRevanchist said:

Thanks for the recap. To be fair, I understood this from the book. Just that my hope was that we might see something more than this.

Guess it just comes down to difference in expectation then, because even just that first part of them living on an ice planet was probably more than I expected, so it felt like a feast to me lol.

For what it's worth I really liked the other universe explanation for how the tech was generating power and breaking the rules of physics because it simultaneously 1) has a very easy to understand analogy to map onto with water pressure on a deep sea bubble, 2) a second easy to understand analogy with "siphoning energy from another universe" = windmills to link up with the Holden = Don Quixote thing, and 3) gets it further away from most real life attempts at theoretical frameworks for this stuff which tend to be anchored in the rules of our own universe and needing to abide by them. It gives some protection against "but that's not how it works" 

I think you might have missed some of this last book then Revanchist, because I felt we got a much better picture of the Romans in this book than I expected we would.

They started their evolution as sea slugs on an ice coated planet drawing energy from volcanic vents and had an extremely slow metabolism and perception. They formed a symbiotic relationship with another species which lived even closer to the vents and learned communication from that species, and proceeded to improve themselves through acquiring additional traits through other species. Over time they become more akin to jellyfish, and learnt to communicate with each other via light and eventually formed a superorganism with the light speed communication between individuals allowing them to function as neurons in a larger brain.

At some point they broke the ice crust, took to the stars and continued their expansion. They figure out that they can open a bubble within the lining of another universe and use this bubble as 1) a source of an effectively limitless supply of energy being siphoned from the other universe and 2) to break the rules of physics in our universe by doing things in the bubble where our physics don't apply due to not being in our universe. With the gate network established they started throwing out globs of protomolecule across the Galaxy with new nodes extending both their biological functions with new traits where desirable (this is the only part I'm inferring rather than it being explicitly stated), along with expanding their brain with ever more processing power.

Eventually the occupants of the other universe, the Goths - them being from another universe is definitely explicit - objected to all the energy being siphoned from their universe either due to direct damage being caused or something like accelerating entropy, so they figured out how to reach into ring space and through the gates and eventually killed the Romans. As the Romans were a single organism they never even went through a gate into a system the Goths killed so verification it had worked was very simple, which led to the Goths being ignorant when they actually managed to kill a system of humans by changing salt ionisation rates - humanity was saved by it's individualism at that point.

On the magnetar weapon - the reason I think it won't work without the gates isn't the energy to open the micro wormhole, it's that the energy is generated by the "water pressure" of an entire universe on the "bubble" of ring space. My impression is that magnetar wouldn't have sufficient energy to open another pocket in the lining of the Goth universe and inflate it in order to then generate the power. It generates a micro wormhole to the existing gate space and then utilizes the energy already being generated there.

The creation of gate space must have taken a phenomenal effort, it just pays itself off very quickly.

I'd argue that shows have found ways to do similar even in spots where the books didn't. Show Ashford was acting heroically, looking to sacrifice themselves to save the Sol system. He just happens to be wrong, his plan would have failed and it was unnecessary.

Which I guess is true for Duarte as well. The Goths were a problem that humanity had no solution to, but by trying to solve that problem he instigated the fight a lot faster than it would have come up otherwise and put them with their backs against the wall about to be wiped out if they didn't have the Roman "weapon" to use. And his solution to save humanity would end humanity, although it's hard to say how much of him still survived at that point and how much he'd been coopted as the proto-photo-ice-jellyfish resurrection plan.

I would say his vision of Emperor seemed less... Aware of it's own power hungry nature than we see from Trejo and Tanaka.

One penny that finally dropped for me in this book was the seeding of "acceptance of fascism" in the Martian population. Because Mars was largely offscreen for the early books and we don't see them with the hand as thoroughly in the cookie jar as we do with the powerful Earthers, I'd managed to skate through most of the series with a largely unexamined, somewhat positive view of Mars. This was probably amplified due to the Martians we do see (Alex and Bobbie) being good, and we don't see much of Bobbie's pre awakening attitude in the books. While the show did add on more of her indoctrinated period, that was offset by the addition of the crew of the Donny also giving a positive impression.

It was only while reading LF that it finally sunk in that the big flaw of Mars was acceptance of the military hierarchy pulling evil shit with utilitarian arguments. That flaw let Duarte cherry pick a population of the most obedient Martians along with a small subset that would be on the officers/leaders track and results in the Laconic we see. 

I think it was Tanaka's point of view that hammered it home, and it's because it's well past mere obedience to the point of being enraged that there are people who resist being conquered, that Laconia won therefore it's now legitimate end of story. It's a very different mindset to mine which is probably why it took so long to sink in and needed to be shoved in my face. I can understand not fighting it because you're weak and scared, it's specifically it being a moral imperative to follow those in charge that I miss. And it's kinda ironic that it's Tanaka that gets it through to me given she's actually somewhat hypocritical on this front, but it's very much what she expects from others.

2 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

She's the military subordinate to Singh, the one he fires for his own incompetence...

Yeah that's about where I thought it might have been, thanks!

24 minutes ago, unJon said:

I thought it was a fitting final volume. Hit the right notes. 
 

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Maybe they were turning humanity into them through Duarte. Dunno. 

 

Yeah that was my interpretation as well.

16 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

Tanaka was in Persepolis Rising

I did think she felt like I was supposed to remember her, but I couldn't actually remember her.

On 12/2/2021 at 10:04 AM, Kalsandra said:

@Maltaran - 

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IIRC there's a mention that the reason the Goths went after the Magnetar when it fired its cannon and obliterated the station was that it uses gate tech to take energy from that alternate universe into this one; the antimatter primes the system, but it isn't sufficient by itself to do that power.

And that's why the goths tried to kill it. 

Similarly, we know on Ilus that prototech was used to do something that the goths didn't like in that one room in particular. No idea what, but that tech is also still around. 

So unless the magnetar's ability interacts with the gates in some way and derives power from the station at the center - something that's plausible! - I don't see how destroying the ringspace shuts the goths out completely. 

 

I'm pretty sure that it does

Overall I thought it was an ending worthy of the series, with hindsight it felt like everything fell into the only places they could possibly have felt so it was all well set up and foreshadowed. And when it feels satisfying like that it doesn't need a twist.

3 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I suppose filler episodes are still episodes. 
 

Damn fox pirates. 

The Fox pirates aren't even filler lol, the davvy back fight is in the manga. Warship Island (after Loguetown and before Reverse Mountain) and the G-8 marine base (after Skypeia and immediately before Foxy) are the only outright filler arcs I can recall, and the latter is actually excellent.

Most of the one piece filler is baked into the canon episodes with poor pacing, excessive reaction shots, excessive recaps and clashes which make no sense from a physics point of view as two blows push back and forth against each other before the victors then continues like it's momentum wasn't lost lol. Which makes it difficult to skip. There's an odd filler episode here and there though.

And yeah it's challenging to adapt, they'll have to find a tone that works for it and it can't just be the same as the manga or anime because that won't work in live action. The actors cast so far have the essence of the characters though which is the most important starting point.

I think it's a testament to Lee Pace's acting that I keep wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt about coming to a better mind set and then he does something like what he did to Azura (or to Demerzal in the previous episode).

I think Hari was really cemented as by far the most likely culprit for the bombing of the Star Bridge now. His in depth knowledge of the history of Anacreon and Thespis qualifies him as having the necessary knowledge to frame them for the bombing (based on the questions Empire was asking back in ep1/2) and the cut from Hari talking about the need to attack Empire to the scar on Trantor also implies a connection. On the flip side I think what we've seen from Demerzal in the last couple of episodes makes it less likely to have been her actions, although killing Dawn in that fashion does make it pretty clear she's capable of it if get calculations determine its necessary to protect the genetic dynasty. I just think they made it less likely to be the course of action she chooses.

The early comments I saw from a One Piece YouTuber who works in the film industry said it was a mixed bag, with the characters mostly being done justice but the decision to do more than 1 season results in them having to add new content that didn't always work.

I'd assumed they were just doing one and done and I'm confused why they'd pad it out and risk the reception when this is clearly their pitch to sell tv series live action adaptations of anime, and contrast that against the failures of adapting as movies. They're throwing serious money at One Piece and I feel like a success or failure of Cowboy Bebop has the potential to sway a lot of people on giving that a chance.

Speaking of One Piece, episode 1000 is coming up this weekend. The content isn't going to be as special as chapter 1000 was, but it's still a hell of a thing and worthy of celebration. The current story arc has been amazing for over a year solid in the manga and the anime is just entering that run now and I expect it to continue its higher than normal standard as a result. Had a couple of stand out episodes in the last few months with more experimental animation in one, and the other is by a young director Megumi Ishitani. She's only had two episodes of OP so far and they've both been phenomenal with much more dynamic lighting and movement - it's not just good for OP animation standards, it's excellent full stop. I expect we'll be seeing good things from her in the future, based on the two episodes she's had so far she'll probably/hopefully have the episode covering chapter 1000.

On the discussion from last year I love ATLA, but find Korra even more special and it's entirely down to the character of Korra and how much more intensely personal her struggles are. The premise of ATLA - that Aang is the survivor of a genocide which happened 100 years ago who has no one left - is the most tragic thing in both series, but due to his age and nature it's not something he dwells in. Rage slips out at times, but for the most part he's pretty happy. By contrast each of Korra's antagonists dismantle part of her psyche and confidence, and this arrogant brat is forced to undergo tremendous character growth and earn the audiences affection.

I've seen their circumstances contrasted in line with what Rip said as: Aang was absent from a world that needed him to save it, his conflict is about beating the threat that grew in his absence. Korra is present in a world that no longer needs THE Avatar in the way it needed Aang, it no longer has a place for someone above governments/nations. She's not remotely reluctant in the way Aang was, but she's constantly challenged with the question of who she is and what she would be if she couldn't be the avatar. Aang would have been a free spirited monk, that question would never have bothered him.

Yeah I agree that interpretation of his motives seems right. And she knew it. It kinda feels like if he hadn't already lost her support he has now and she will be looking for any loopholes her programming allows

On 11/7/2021 at 6:55 AM, Ran said:

Yeah, 170km without food -- okay. But water? Nope, nope, nope. 

Me when the spiral was mentioned in the previous episode: Cleon is in great shape, probably enhanced, if random pilgrims make it then he should be fine

Me after they gave us this information: Lolno, Demerzal is the only one that could even make it halfway. Even most long distance professional athletes are going to be in trouble after doing 40km if they're not hydrating soon, assuming they even manage that far. Cyclists ride 200km in a day and they drink a ton even in relatively cool weather. Barefoot, nearly naked while getting sunburnt to a crisp in an environment as hostile as the worst desserts on Earth? It's not happening lol.

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

No idea WTF was going on with Gaal. Is her cryopod just going to be a way for her to take part (however tangentially) in each story's timeframe and she doesn't actually do anything. Very weird. And having VR Seldon going off to found the Second Foundation, but the ship blew up, so the Second Foundation doesn't now exist...or what?

Yeah not really loving that, given Gaal is the character I most want to see more of. I'm not sure if the ship actually blew up or if that was just the engines or something, it was confusing.

Well that one didn't feel slow to me. Only substantial complaint I'd have was that the fight at the Anacreon ships felt very gamey in multiple ways - the distances were absurdly close with the guards not noticing them while they're 30 meters away in clear sight, like mobs in a MMO, the sniper player character taking out a whole bunch of guards while none of them snipe back, and the cut scene that resolves the situation tragically for the player character.

Also Brother Lee Pace got played like a fiddle, but that's not a criticism of the show lol, just of Brother Day failing after talking a big talk to Brother Dusk before he left.

I actually thought the hunting trip was a nice little foreshadow of the colour blindness just before explicitly revealing it. Not sure what role that's going to play long term, but it seems certain to be relevant at least indirectly (ie he's been modified, perhaps by Demerzal?) if not directly. It also recontextualises his destruction of the mural - it wasn't about what he said in that scene, it's that it would have given away his colour blindness.

We possibly have the details of the Anacreon plan now, but I still don't think it's the whole picture - just one part, and I still think it's a stitch up as well as what we're seeing.

I think the approach suggested here could just as easily trigger that feeling even more so. If you're trying to cleverly show the oncoming collapse it's very hard to make it simultaneously actually clever but also sufficiently obvious to the majority of the audience. And if you fail at making it clever then you manage to look condescending as well as unintelligent.

And I think that half the people who would look to be making the same complaints as you would find it even worse.

Sorry if I'm sounding overly critical, I'm just getting really tired of fandoms acting like nearly the entire industry is incompetent. Obviously there are some incompetent people out there, some are even bad enough to get people to notice (D&D). But the amount of projects that have people tearing them apart is surely a sign of just how difficult it is to pull off what we want. Sometimes things just don't quite pull off what they're going for. And sometimes the guy/guys at the top are indeed hacks, but everyone underneath them are great and doing their best.

I'm not sure how they could explore the fictional mathematics capable of predicting the future in a way that makes it not be a magical deus ex machina, when it is a magical D.E.M, in a tv show that's clearly expensive enough to need to find a large audience when the source material was unable to do it. You're asking the impossible there. Slow pace is already one of the chief complaints and that would have slammed the brakes on even harder in the first episode so we didn't even see the primary conflict start.

I also think the idea of rejecting characters is antithetical to getting an audience sufficiently large to justify the investment. And it's not like it's been a deep dive character study.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

My guess at where this is ultimately going: Anacreon ultimately teams up with the radical Luminist Proxima, jump a bunch of planet-killing nukes to Trantor, and blow it the hell up.

Which pays off and explains the earlier shot that I found quite weird. It establishes both that the religion is a major power and that it has planet killing nukes. Seems a pretty good guess based on what we've got so far.

And yeah, I was very much thinking of the guild from Dune as well but there are equivalents in other properties as well. I think navigation through the void is one of the big challenges of travel in 40k as well? For a tonally very different property I know nothing about.

9 hours ago, Ran said:

Oh, that's right, they said they wanted a navigation unit. Hmm.. but then they said they wanted to commandeer one. I don't know. Is the idea that the Anacreons don't have the tech to get to Trantor, so they need the unit to be able to guide their ships? That could make sense (sort of). 

Yeah I think this is getting closer. Maybe something along the lines of having the capability to make jump ships but no way to navigate them yet, that's not an uncommon difficulty in sci fi after all. I'm ok with something relatively derivative when it's just serving the motivations of presumably lesser antagonists - they don't even have to be right. They might get the navigation module and find it does nothing, it's those genetically engineered (this is a guess, I'm not sure) spacers from ep1 that stay awake during jumps which are the key.

Hell I don't even object if they've simply been denied star charts since their planet was bombed and they don't even know where Trantor is anymore. That would make the jump unit the top priority, but the slow ship navigation unit a genuine secondary priority.

I also don't have an answer for how they plan to ensure the Empire doesn't simply talk to the Foundation and have them confirm it was Anacreons who shot down the ship, but I'm feeling pretty solid on the framing being a central part of what's going on.

Oh and Ran - to continue the discussion from last week on needing more than just more set up this week: this was enough to keep me invested for now. I guess it's not pay off per se, but it's rising action and feels like I'm now seeing the story that was only being set up in earlier eps.

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

Apple is still in a building phase and has picked up a lot of new subs from Ted Lasso, but it was starting from a very low base, so it's still not huge. The viewership needed for renewal is thus far lower than it would be for a show on Netflix or Amazon.

As for the budget, I've seen several reports that it's only $4.5 million per episode ($45 million for the season), which is at the upper end of a normal network show budget (it seems to be around what Superman & Lois on the CW has for a budget) and way below The Witcher ($7 million per episode in the first season) or Wheel of Time (~$12 million per episode). That's pretty much chicken feed these days.

What was the budget for S1 GoT? It wasn't that much higher than this right? Shows how quickly the baseline can be shifted given that was one of the most expensive shows even even at that starting point.

And fair enough on your counters to my ideas, in particular you're probably spot on with the Raych ship bit. I'm mostly just theorising so I at least feel like I'm following lol.

My attempt to follow what's going on from this episode is that

1) Hari's plan was substantially more detailed than he let on and included his own martyrdom. That was probably an event that was going to happen regardless and earlier on his own terms results in less damage when it happens, so it's the reason Raych did it and why they apparently had this automated ship following along to pick her up. I guess Gaal is his contingency plan, someone who can update his modeling with additional data as the fall starts to happen, but needed to be off the board as events start in motion.

2) The Anacreons plan was clearly to lure an imperial ship and shoot it down, which they've now achieved. It's sufficiently obvious that there's got to be a second layer to the plan and the best I've got at the moment is that they're framing the Foundation for shooting the ship down. The Cleon's immediately assumed the comm relay going dark was done by them after all, and it seems like a fitting first step of revenge for a people who think that's what happened to them - that Hari's followers were behind the attack and set them up to take the blame.