[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Istakhr]

How sure are we that Alicent Hightower was really after putting her bloodline on the throne?

We already know that Hightowers are perhaps the closest noble family to Maesters of the Citadel. Could her machinations have been specifically to fuel a Targaryan civil war and kill as many dragons and Targaryans as possible as part of the overarching measter's conspiracy?

[RumHam]

How sure are we that Alicent Hightower was really after putting her bloodline on the throne?

We already know that Hightowers are perhaps the closest noble family to Maesters of the Citadel. Could her machinations have been specifically to fuel a Targaryan civil war and kill as many dragons and Targaryans as possible as part of the overarching measter's conspiracy?

I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. I think the Citadel probably decided during / right after The Dance that the dragons had to go.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How sure are we that Alicent Hightower was really after putting her bloodline on the throne?

We already know that Hightowers are perhaps the closest noble family to Maesters of the Citadel. Could her machinations have been specifically to fuel a Targaryan civil war and kill as many dragons and Targaryans as possible as part of the overarching measter's conspiracy?

I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. I think the Citadel probably decided during / right after The Dance that the dragons had to go.

And even if the Citadel was involved (though I believe RumHam is more correct here, and the Citadel only decided to take action after the Dance had occured), than they most likely would have convinced Alicent to wage a war against Rhaenyra by convincing her to try and keep her blood on the throne.

But in all honesty, Alicent (married to Viserys in 106 AC) was reported to not have a good relationship with Rhaenyra (born in 97AC) already in 111 AC. Alicent most likely was only a few years older than Rhaenyra, which makes their fights even worse, since there's no one to act the adult here. Taking into account that Rhaenyra's mother was "replaced" by another woman when she was only 9 years old... That's not something a child gets past quick. Perhaps if Viserys had acted, but the truth is that Alicent and Rhaenyra could not get along, and their fued only got worse. It got even more worse when a child of Rhaenyra's caused a child of Alicent's to get severely injured. For Alicent to accept Rhaenyra as a queen, it would mean she would have to swear fealthy to this woman who she already hates, and who she is used to be above. Obviously, Alicent didn't want this. And thus, wanted to put her own child on the throne.

Had she simply cared for getting her blood on the throne, she would have argued that Helaena marry Jacaerys (even though there's an age difference of 5 years) or that Jarhaera was married to Jacaerys (with an age difference of 9 years). Instead she chose war, because she must have known from the start that there was no way that Rhaenyra (backed by Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys and their (grand)children) would stand meekly aside and give away the crown she had been raised to receive.

[Anath]

How sure are we that Alicent Hightower was really after putting her bloodline on the throne?

We already know that Hightowers are perhaps the closest noble family to Maesters of the Citadel. Could her machinations have been specifically to fuel a Targaryan civil war and kill as many dragons and Targaryans as possible as part of the overarching measter's conspiracy?

What else could she have been after? I find it hardly to believe that she was after killing as many dragons and Targaryens as possible when her own children were among those Targaryens.

Plus, if the Small Council is something to go by, the Grand Maester is not part of Alicent's scheme - he's all for upholding Rhaenyra's claim. Unless it was the Citadel against the Grand Maester, I can't see how such a conspiracy with Alicent's participation would be possible.

[Grievous]

And even if the Citadel was involved (though I believe RumHam is more correct here, and the Citadel only decided to take action after the Dance had occured), than they most likely would have convinced Alicent to wage a war against Rhaenyra by convincing her to try and keep her blood on the throne.

But in all honesty, Alicent (married to Viserys in 106 AC) was reported to not have a good relationship with Rhaenyra (born in 97AC) already in 111 AC. Alicent most likely was only a few years older than Rhaenyra, which makes their fights even worse, since there's no one to act the adult here. Taking into account that Rhaenyra's mother was "replaced" by another woman when she was only 9 years old... That's not something a child gets past quick. Perhaps if Viserys had acted, but the truth is that Alicent and Rhaenyra could not get along, and their fued only got worse. It got even more worse when a child of Rhaenyra's caused a child of Alicent's to get severely injured. For Alicent to accept Rhaenyra as a queen, it would mean she would have to swear fealthy to this woman who she already hates, and who she is used to be above. Obviously, Alicent didn't want this. And thus, wanted to put her own child on the throne.

Had she simply cared for getting her blood on the throne, she would have argued that Helaena marry Jacaerys (even though there's an age difference of 5 years) or that Jarhaera was married to Jacaerys (with an age difference of 9 years). Instead she chose war, because she must have known from the start that there was no way that Rhaenyra (backed by Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys and their (grand)children) would stand meekly aside and give away the crown she had been raised to receive.

I think that's a very insightful (and probable) take on the situation. I was kind of expecting to see more about the reasons for the war in the text itself, but that was just one thing that seems to be missing in in-depth.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think that's a very insightful (and probable) take on the situation. I was kind of expecting to see more about the reasons for the war in the text itself, but that was just one thing that seems to be missing in in-depth.

Yeah, I guess it was one of those things that got cut.

But there's also the possibility that it was never in there to begin with. This was an account written by a maester about 100 years after the events happened. He couldn't possibly exactly know what everyone was thinking, and there wouldn't be many sources left alive (if any).

[Marakesh]

Even House Targaryen itself became divided...

This is the part that made me groan, right at the beginning. Really, its called Dance of the Dragons, but we need to be told EVEN the Targaryens fought each other?

[Slayer of Lies]

My take of TPATQ was similar to the readers that were let down – primarily – by writing style and flow.

I will spoiler tag it, since it is somewhat long, and since several might disagree. Perhaps it’s also worth noting that I have no intention of taking away others’ enjoyment where I inadvertently found less, and merely wanted a place to voice my grievances alongside others who have done the same.

While it’s great to have more world-building ASOIAF content, and while I really appreciate the fan-historians of the community compiling all of the info into Wikis, tables, timelines and more, the novella itself felt almost completely lackluster in its tone.

Unfortunately, I have referred to reading TPATQ as a “project” amongst friends, and found myself “tuning out” way too many times due to the largely ad nauseum lists of characters and locations which are virtually un-supplemented by grittily narrated tales of adventure and intrigue on the scale that the DOTD “should” have been described.

Instead, very few scenes contained that glorious Martin-esque prose that works to transports readers into his world, and most of the work comes off – to me – as the partially-edited bones of an unfinished screenplay.

None of this goes to say that I hated it, or regret my purchase or the time spent reading it. But TPATQ is also not a work that elevates itself to the levels of genius that most of GRRM’s other works soar, as parts of it simply feel copy-and-pasted from an email exchange between GRRM and the WOIAF sidebar development team.

So, lacking the authorship qualities that drive me to indulgent rereads, the search for Easter eggs and possible “history repeats itself” foreshadowing often provides its own entertainment value, even though it would primarily be guesswork at this phase to predict anything that will happen in TWOW or ADOS referencing TPATQ as an historic “precedent.”

For example, in ASOIAF:

· Will the Lannisters be eliminated / forced from KL soon (see Lord Lefford, and the Battle by the Lakeshore)?

· Will Tommen by murdered (see Blood and Cheese)?

· Will the northmen be betrayed by, say, Mance (see Treasons of Tumbleton) after taking WF (see again the Battle by the Lakeshore)?

· Will Aegon take KL somewhat defenseless (see Conquest of the Capital)?

· Will Brown Ben ride a dragon (see Nettles) or instead be deemed unsuccessful (see Silver Denys)?

· Will Justin Massey side with Dany instead of remaining loyal to Stannis (see Gormon Massey, who sided with the princess instead of the queen)?

· Will Sansa win the Vale (see Sharra Arryn)?

Again, it’s all guesswork to suggest any of the above, so I’m not throwing out crackpot theories so much as wildly speculating on the few possible connections we might have, post-reveal. Because surely GRRM has put some of the events of TPATQ in place in order to execute the exact opposite later in ASOIAF, while others are simply dead ends with no interplay.

Therefore, to me, the biggest potential for “chemistry” that might exist between and ASOIAF and TPATQ – as I’ve mentioned before – is the possible survival of a dragon like Sheepstealer or Cannibal, which may later act as an aerial nemesis to Dany’s dragons (since I envision a dragon burning a field of wights to be on par with a sniper aiming a flamethrower at a pile of kindling). If there are truly no more dragons beyond Dany’s, though, that’s a missed opportunity in my book for the author having documented that a handful of dragons survived the DOTD, and having fan correspondences which indicate dragon sightings “discounted” by the maesters… but then possibly never tying that into the ASOIAF timeline.

Similarly, most find Visenya’s birth a direct parallel to Rhaego’s birth, which seems like fairly obvious low-hanging fruit to me, but I also personally noted a similarity with Oberyn’s story of Tyrion’s alleged birth, and the fact that he too supposedly had a tail…

In the end, though, outside of a couple of somewhat exciting potential finds, TPATQ is likely not a story I will reread for enjoyment, but instead one that I will merely take at face value, as the “fake history” intended for the WOIAF sidebars that it was originally intended to be... And, if we're lucky, maybe also the possible foreshadowing and interplay between DOTD and the upcoming events of ASOIAF.

But I certainly wanted the story to be better than I found it to be, as I typically find GRRM's words and worlds among the best out there.

[dotheknifefight]

Haelaena's decision of which child to kill reminded me of Sophie's Choice with a cruel twist.

One thing we don't know when figuring out Viserys' wife is when he came back from Essos.

Rhaena and Corbray seems almost a sure thing at this point.

I think Corlys as Hand and/or Regent immediately after the Dance makes a lot of sense. If he is in this position, he would be just the person to marry Baela to Alyn. But I can't imagine Viserys having children with anyone other than a Targaryen/Velaryon, and there's only two of them left at the end of the Dance. It just seems a bit obvious that there are two Targaryen girls (not counting Jaehaera, who we know never has a child) and two Targaryen boys.

[dotheknifefight]

My take of TPATQ was similar to the readers that were let down – primarily – by writing style and flow.

I blame Gardner for this - editing down an 80,000 word story to 30,000, what would you expect?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Even House Targaryen itself became divided...

This is the part that made me groan, right at the beginning. Really, its called Dance of the Dragons, but we need to be told EVEN the Targaryens fought each other?

The maester who wrote it just wanted to make it sound more exciting and dramatic. :p and then this is what happens, I guess..

[dotheknifefight]

If Rhaena and Baela wed Aegon III and Viserys II respectively, all Targaryen descendants after the Dance of Dragons are direct descendants of Daemon on both sides.

[Slayer of Lies]

I blame Gardner for this - editing down an 80,000 word story to 30,000, what would you expect?

I kind of knew what I was in for when I read the sample before buying the book, and nothing was going to stop me from buying it, but still.

I was hoping for something on par with THK as the story developed, and didn't quite get what I wanted.

But again, if you think of the novella as the sidebar material it was intended to be, it's not that bad as a 'slightly more thorough appendix,' and I still look forward to the WOIAF book for the addition of pictures alongside copy of this caliber.

[dotheknifefight]

Davos said Velaryon's thrice provided princesses for Targaryen princes.

Daemon and Laena is one.

Aegon the Conqueror's mother is two? His father would not be a prince.

That leaves possibilities for Aenys, Maegor, and Baelon, if we agree Aegon III did not marry a Velaryon princess.

Right?

(And if Aenys married a Stark that narrows it down further!)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Davos said Velaryon's thrice provided princesses for Targaryen princes.

Daemon and Laena is one.

Aegon the Conqueror's mother is two?

That leaves possibilities for Aenys, Maegor, and Baelon, if we agree Aegon III did not marry a Velaryon princess.

Right?

Aegon the Conqueror's father wasn't a Prince. Aerion Targaryen was a Lord of Dragonstone. But he did marry a Velaryon bride.

However, Aerion doesn't count, if Davos' words can be taken literally. Daemon would definitly count, since Laena was a Velaryon by birth.

Aegon III most likely did not marry a Velaryon Princess anymore (but a Targaryen Princess with a Velaryon mother is still a possibility).

The possibilities (and their likelihood according to me) are:

Aenys: possible. Aenys was married outside of the family for political reasons. Aegon, however already had a Velaryon on his Small Council. The Velaryons had also fought with Aegon during the Conquest, but Daemon Velaryon, Aegon's own master of ships, had died during the fighting (SSM). It's possible Aenys married one of them to make up for that.

Maegor: possible. Out of Maegor's 6 (or 9, depending on the version of the tales) wife, we know only of three: Aenys' eldest sister, Aenys' eldest daughter, and Jenny Westerling. Another possibility is Alys Harroway, but this cannot be said with certainty by only looking at the preview. Tyanna of Pentos has been raised as another possibility, which would leave only 1 more spot open. Personally, I don't believe in Tyanna of Pentos as Maegor's wife.

Baelon: since we don't know anything about Baelon, I can't really say anything here :)

Baelor Breakspear: imo most likely. Baelor had the Dornish looks of his mother, yet his sons had Valyrian streaks running through their brown coloured hair.

Rhaegel: unknown. Could be a possibility.

Maekar: Could be possible, but unknown.

Daeron: Unknown

Aerion: Unknown

Aegon: Most likely not. Aegon married for love, and the way Davos tells it, it sounds political.

Jaehaerys: Most likely not. Jaehaerys married for love, and the way Davos tells it, it sounds political.

Unknown 3rd son of Aegon V: Most likely not. Aegon's third son married for love, and the way Davos tells it, it sounds political.

About Rhaegel, Maekar, Daeron and Aerion, nothing can be said, really. Unfortunately.

Edit: just now saw your own edit :) But no, Aerion Targaryen wouldn't count.

[Adam Feldman]

Hi everyone. A question for History of Westeros, Lord Varys, or any other genealogy experts in this thread. Do we know when House Strong lost Harrenhal? In particular, I was wondering if they might have managed to hold on to Harrenhal until the Blackfyre Rebellion. Could the Strongs have been Blackfyre supporters, leading to the Lothstons being awarded Harrenhal as a reward for Manfred Lothston's treachery against Daemon Blackfyre? Or is there any known evidence that contradicts this possibility? Thanks in advance.

[RumHam]

Hi everyone. A question for History of Westeros, Lord Varys, or any other genealogy experts in this thread. Do we know when House Strong lost Harrenhal? In particular, I was wondering if they might have managed to hold on to Harrenhal until the Blackfyre Rebellion. Could the Strongs have been Blackfyre supporters, leading to the Lothstons being awarded Harrenhal as a reward for Manfred Lothston's treachery against Daemon Blackfyre? Or is there any known evidence that contradicts this possibility? Thanks in advance.

It's mentioned that a lord Lothston sided with Daemon Blackfyre, but then betrayed him. I'm guessing most of House Strong was killed when Aemond returned to Harrenhal and burnt it with Vhagar. Larys probably didn't survive the dance, and house Lothston was probably granted it at the end of the war. That means they held if for something like 100 years before they probably rebelled against Maekar for some reason.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

No the Lothston's of Harrenhal betrayed the Blackfyre cause in the first rebellion according to Ser Eustace in TSS. It's not clear when House Strong was extinguished/attained.

eta: RumHam the :ninja:

[Adam Feldman]

It's mentioned that a lord Lothston sided with Daemon Blackfyre, but then betrayed him. I'm guessing most of House Strong was killed when Aemond returned to Harrenhal and burnt it with Vhagar. Larys probably didn't survive the dance, and house Lothston was probably granted it at the end of the war. That means they held if for something like 100 years before they probably rebelled against Maekar for some reason.

No the Lothston's of Harrenhal betrayed the Blackfyre cause in the first rebellion according to Ser Eustace in TSS. It's not clear when House Strong was extinguished/attained.

eta: RumHam the :ninja:

The quote from D&E that I can find is in Eustace Osgrey's list of shoulda-woulda-coulda, where he says "if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous..." But there's no mention of Harrenhal there, and as far as I'm aware no confirmation that the Lothstons held Harrenhal before the Blackfyre Rebellion, rather than getting it after, a la Littlefinger.

So might House Strong have held on longer than we think? Perhaps Larys could even have switched over to the blacks later in the Dance. Prince Daemon did have a source on the Council, and it's been suggested that Larys was playing both sides.

[dotheknifefight]

Larys is Lord of Harrenhal in The Princess and the Queen, so unless someone stripped him of the title, Harrenhal would be his until his death.

I think he was Daemon's man from the beginning, but not on the side of the Blacks nor Greens. I think both Larys and Daemon were working toward a goal beyond the power struggle at hand.