Lord Varys Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think whoever took charge of the young king and his brother upon the end of the Dance would have betrothed Viserys as soon as possible to ensure that the Targaryen line would continue. If Jaehaera really was a lackwit, as some of suggested, there could have been a strong risk that Aegon's children by her would have the same affliction, assuming that her affliction was not caused during her birth or when she was still very young. Thus Viserys may have been Aegon's heir for most of his reign, until Aegon III took his second wife. Especially since Jaehaera's affliction (as well as the fact that her father murdered Aegon's mother while he watched) would make it very unlikely that Aegon would ever consummate his marriage to her. Whereas we can reasonably assume that Viserys was only betrothed at the end of the Dance, it's very likely that Aegon III was forced to marry Jaehaera. A betrothal could have been set aside later on, but the whole point of this political match was to end the Dance. Thus it's very likely that Aegon and Jaehaera were forced to marry one another, although no one could force them at that young age to consummate the marriage (Jaehaera would be a 7-8 year-old in 131, and Aegon III would be (nearly) sixteen when Jaehaera reached the age to conceive children. As to the title Lord Protector, that's an interesting idea! If it was invented by Aenys to honor Maegor, my guess is that he really chose him as his heir in his last will (and the chances would be pretty good that Aenys was not murdered by Maegor/Visenya but killed in battle/assassinated by rebels). Right now I don't remember whether Aegon I did already bear that title. He styled himself 'King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms' but I'm not sure about the Lord Protector thing. It does seem that it is connected to the monarch as a warrior, perhaps referring to the King in his function as the supreme commander of the lords and knights in his Realm. If that's the case, then it's clear why Rhaenyra (who did not style herself as a warrior queen), boy kings, and peaceful kings did not bear the title. I don't know where the title originated in medieval England, nor whether it was actually used by the Kings of England, but it was the style of the regents of minor kings as well as the office/style Oliver Cromwell used when he ruled in place of the kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 On Corlys Velaryon becoming Hand: The initial idea from GRRM was to have a Velaryon hand act as a regent after the Dance, marrying his daughter to Aegon III. But then, in this very same thread, Ran confirms that this aspect is "one of those things that have changed substantially between his initial, early ideas that he first formulated years ago, to what he actually produced when he got down to writing the history of the era." So I doubt that Corlys ever got to be the Hand and marry a granddaugther to Aegon III. That wouldn't be a "substancial" change. On Daemon's daughters becoming Aegon III or Viserys brides: I'm disinclined to believe that any of the twins married Aegon III. They were 15/16 when the war ended at 131, and then no one could predict that Jaehaera would prove to be infertile, or have an early death. Given that Aegon III fathers all his children in a short span of time (he had two sons and two daughters between 143 and 147), by the time that Jaehaera died and he would need to remarry, Baela and Rhaena would normaly had been married to someone else already. As for Viserys II, I'm also skeptical: Ran said some time ago that in George's initial family tree he wasn't married to a Targaryen (it may have changed by now, but at least initially there was someone else in mind). Then there's the age difference (when Aegon IV was born, Viserys II was 15 and Baela/Rhaena would be 21. Ouch) But also, the unions between Targaryens would be something promoted by themselves to consolidate their power. But ruling regents and hands would try to use the collateral Targaryens for political marriages to secure the peace or consolidate their own power. (BTW, Maia's suggestion that one of the twins may marry Alyn Velaryon makes perfect sense to me). On the title of Protector of the Realm: Joffrey was styled Lord Protector of the Realm after he ascended to the Iron Throne, but Tommen is not. During Joffrey's reign Cersei only served as Queen Regent, but when Tommen took the throne, she became Queen Regent and Protector of the Realm. It doesn't work exactly like this. Although Joffrey is announced as Protector of the Realm the day of Eddard's downfall at the throne room, Cersei is named "Queen Regent, Light of the West, and Protector of the Realm" at the very next scene in the small council. In the ACOK appendixes and during the Battle of the Blackwater she is named protector of the realm again. At a guess, initially Joffrey wanted to rule himself, but it was pointed out that law required having a regent/protector until he reached adulthood. But as you say, Lord Protector and Regent seems to be the same title when the king is minor. Robert's will said: “Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 THB, well, it's clear that Aegon's Velaryon queen is off the table now, as is the Velaryon Regent and Hand serving a long time and rebuilding the Realm. But GRRM apparently did want to keep bits and pieces of the old conception despite the changes. Rhaenyra never was married to a Lord Lyonel Strong, yet her three elder sons may be Strongs all the same. That's the very reason why I don't think it's unlikely that Corlys is the first Lord Regent and Hand of Aegon III who ended the war and married Aegon to Jaehaera - only to die weeks or days later, to plunge the Realm into another time of trouble and grief. But I could be mistaken there. Perhaps the only thing that's left from the Velaryon Hand is Corlys having the original idea to marry Aegon to Jaehaera. As to Alyn's wife: She may be Baela, if Viserys is not her husband. Rhaena would make a good match for Aegon III only because she is going to become a widow in the 130s just as Aegon is. And we have still no clue when Jaehaera dies. If Rhaena becomes one of the last Targaryen dragonriders - and I think her taking the eggs to the Vale may foreshadow that, especially since Ran confirmed that there is still a secret dragon out there - she may have become a very powerful political player at court during the Regency era. I'd not be surprised if her dragon was killed during that time, not during the Dance.But we don't yet know if there are other Velaryon women from a cadet branch. Alyn may marry a granddaughter of one of Corlys's brothers or sisters. The fact that Addam and Alyn were legitimized does not indicate that there were no other Velaryons (especially since both Joffrey Velaryon and Daemon's daughters by Laena had still strong claims to Driftmark). On the titles: My guess is also that Lord Protector always goes with the Regency - if there is a Regency. But Rhaenyra and Daeron II confirm that you don't have to bear that title yourself as adult king/queen if you don't want. I do think that Lord Leowyn Corbray was Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm but it's not impossible that there was a time during Aegon's Regency where the power struggle led to some sort of a triumvirate, with the Lord Protector, the Lord Regent, and the King's Hand being three different men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Oh but there has been. In one of the threads on this board, some readers argued that the wee dragon babies were proof of Targs mating with dragons. I shit you not. http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/053/a/0/Dragon_Layer_by_Mravac.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/053/a/0/Dragon_Layer_by_Mravac.jpgHar! Note the color of the hair and that eye looks like a haunting shade of violet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 As to the title Lord Protector, that's an interesting idea! If it was invented by Aenys to honor Maegor, my guess is that he really chose him as his heir in his last will (and the chances would be pretty good that Aenys was not murdered by Maegor/Visenya but killed in battle/assassinated by rebels). Right now I don't remember whether Aegon I did already bear that title. He styled himself 'King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms' but I'm not sure about the Lord Protector thing. This is an excellent discussion as usual! At this point I have only one small thing to add: I think the murder of Aenys is still a very likely scenario because the "Sons of the Dragon" reading: "In gratitude and a show of family solidarity, Aenys named Maegor his Hand (the previous one having been killed during the revolts)...but, GRRM noted, this amity was to be short-lived." So I like the theory about how the title got created, but I think we should still be leaning towards foul play as the quote indicates very strongly that Aenys/Maegor, for the most part, didn't get along. Aenys gave Blackfyre to Maegor before the trouble started, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marakesh Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Wow, 80+ pages, I am very late to the party! It was okay, but not as much fun as a story would have been. Would love to get more Dunk and Egg stories, I've begun to prefer them to the main series in many ways. GRRM does make it read like a real history with many things going on at once. At the forefront of our attention is the fact that a women is being denied the right to rule on account of her gender, but its not that simple. At first I was reminded of the English claim to the French throne on the basis of female descent. On the one hand, its just self serving, and I don't think anyone sees it as a desire on the part of Anglo-Normans to respect the rights of women. On the other hand, it does reflect a genuine difference in culture that allows that legal dispute to exist. Here, the Targs are becoming more “Westerosized,” adopting their subjects ways. A bigger parallel than this is the Jezebel story in the Bible. There's genuine misogyny thrown her way and you can't dismiss the Israelite culture's disdain for a female in power as a factor here. However, there's also the fact that she represents a strong foreign culture moving south that is considerably more authoritarian. Its not just that Rhaenys is a woman that is a problem, its that she is more associated with early Targaryen rule that is more totalitarian - because they have dragons which are like nuclear weapons being held over the heads of their subject peoples. After the DWD the Targs have to use diplomacy and deal with people, they can’t just burn whole armies to the ground, they need to gain their subjects loyalty. Rhaenys has horrible people skills. When it all begins, she’s on Dragonstone and has virtually no friends in King’s Landing. Her first strategy seems to be “I have more dragons,” but to be fair she does try some diplomacy. Except the other side knows to offer the Stormlord something for his support. This becomes a theme as many betrayals against her are because people want more than she gave them. Often their demands are in fact unreasonable, but she apparently isn’t aware enough either to know not to trust them or to provide them with something to keep them loyal. Then she pushes away her closest allies, Daemon and Corlys, while the peasants are revolting and killing dragons. The story reads just like ASOIAF. A claimant to the throne is outraged others don’t recognize what is rightfully theirs and so starts a conflict killing lots of smallfolk and generally making a mess of things because they can’t understand anyone else’s point of view. If GRRM were to write it under a pseudonym, change all the names, and call it a new fantasy series we would accuse the author of ripping off Game of Thrones because it would have so much in common with the War of Five Kings. Even the cautionary tale of leaving your home undefended comes up twice here. It is hard to see Rhaenys in a good light, you would have to dismiss so much of the text as propaganda that it would make the writing of it to be pointless. The threat of violence is there at the start with Aemond’s missing eye and the argument of self defense being given to Aegon II. Again, that a queen doesn’t have a right to rule is not addressed directly. If this is a green version of events to make him look good, it is interesting that female inheritance is not seen as the important part. However, at the very end we get this one line - “the rivalry that began at a court ball when a princess dressed in black and a queen in green has come to its red end.“ Is there more info on this somewhere, it is a mysterious sentence on its own. It seems to suggest a sexual competition between a stepmother and a daughter as the fuel igniting the conflict. Maybe Rhaenys and Daenerys deformed dragon babies mean they are giving up on motherhood and instead seeking power for themselves? Rhaenys does have 3 sons, but she is acting in her own self interest as opposed to Alicent who gives up her crown to her daughter. Or maybe I am trying to find the feminist theme I was expecting to see in this tale somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Wow, 80+ pages, I am very late to the party! It was okay, but not as much fun as a story would have been. Would love to get more Dunk and Egg stories, I've begun to prefer them to the main series in many ways. However, at the very end we get this one line - “the rivalry that began at a court ball when a princess dressed in black and a queen in green has come to its red end.“ Is there more info on this somewhere, it is a mysterious sentence on its own. It seems to suggest a sexual competition between a stepmother and a daughter as the fuel igniting the conflict. Maybe Rhaenys and Daenerys deformed dragon babies mean they are giving up on motherhood and instead seeking power for themselves? Rhaenys does have 3 sons, but she is acting in her own self interest as opposed to Alicent who gives up her crown to her daughter. Or maybe I am trying to find the feminist theme I was expecting to see in this tale somewhere. Well, Alicent would have to give up her crown anyway. Her crown came from Viserys, and Viserys had died. Alicent wanted her own blood on the throne, Rhaenyra (not Rhaenys) wanted the throne, since she had been raised for it and Aegon becoming king would mean the birth right of Rhaenyra's own children would be taken away from them (since Jace would have gotten the throne after Rhaenyra, as her heir). I agree that you'd expect more about Rhaenyra and especially Alicent, seeing as the title of the book is Dangerous Women, and the title of the story is The Princess and the Queen. These two women are the origins of the war, yes indeed, but Alicent becomes rather inactive for a while, and Rhaenyra takes a while to become active (though reasonably understandable since she had to recover from a birth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Eighty-three pages on this story? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 83 pages - as much to do with what is NOT said in the story as about what IS disclosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Eighty-three pages on this story? Wow. This is nothing. Look at how big the Heresy threads are, and on the singular topic of R+L = J. Besides that when a thread is this big, things get repeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I guess I am just surprised that a story that I found to be thin gruel got this much discussion. R+L=J and the heresies have five or so big whacking tomes to draw on, so I can expect more speculation and scholarship. Heck, The Meereenese Blot is based on minute form criticism, and we are richer for it. http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/ But the Princess and the Queen? It just seems pretty weak sauce for such a long thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I guess I am just surprised that a story that I found to be thin gruel got this much discussion. R+L=J and the heresies have five or so big whacking tomes to draw on, so I can expect more speculation and scholarship. Heck, The Meereenese Blot is based on minute form criticism, and we are richer for it. http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/ But the Princess and the Queen? It just seems pretty weak sauce for such a long thread. All the books and theories draw on all the books and theories. Incorporating what we learned about tPaTQ into our existing knowledge base is not a simple thing. Many existing theories changed based on new info. There are lots of parallels, and lots to be guessed at due to the heavy editing. In any case I'm sure we're all very grateful that you took the time to put down something we're having fun with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Eighty-three pages on this story? Wow. We were starved for new material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkSister Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Okay, I started on this and I HAVE TO COMPLAIN TO SOMEBODY OR I WILL CLAW MY EYES OUT! This is so badly written. Intentionally badly written. I am still on the first page and I hate the 'writer' almost from the first sentence. Pompous ass. Cruelty to common comma. Misuse of the 'rule of three': The Dance split the Seven Kingdoms in two, as lords, knights, and smallfolk declared for one side or the other and took up arms against each other. Even House Targaryen itself became divided, when the kith, kin, and children of each of the claimants became embroiled in the fighting. Over the two years of struggle, a terrible toll was taken of the great lords of Westeros, together with their bannermen, knights, and smallfolk. Whilst the dynasty survived, the end of the fighting saw Targaryen power much diminished, and the world's last dragons vastly reduced in number. The Dance was a war unlike any other ever fought in the long history of the Seven Kingdoms. Though armies marched and met in savage battle, much of the slaughter took place on water, and… especially… in the air, as dragon fought dragon with tooth and claw and flame. It was a war marked by stealth, murder, and betrayal as well, a war fought in shadows and stairwells, council chambers and castle yards, with knives and lies and poison. Gnhg! (x_x) It was a war that had murder in it! And stealth! And betrayal! Like no other war ever! etc. How in the world did you manage to finish this? Edit: I'd like to suggest that there is no mystery needed for this book to be 'lost' in the Westeros-present. Just look at that writing style. There is no printing press, to spread it people would actually have had to transcribe this word for word. They just couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Raven Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm not going to fault the guy for liking to use the Oxford comma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkSister Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm not going to fault the guy for liking to use the Oxford comma. I said common comma. Oxfort comma is well placed, however the words it is used to separate are utterly superfluous.IMO GRRM purposely wrote a good historical narrative and then ruined it, look:The Dance split the Seven Kingdoms in two, as lords, knights, and smallfolk declared for one side or the other and took up arms against each other. Even House Targaryen itself became divided, when the kith, kin, and children of each of the claimants became embroiled in the fighting. Over the two years of struggle, a terrible toll was taken of the great lords of Westeros, together with their bannermen, knights, and smallfolk. Whilst the dynasty survived, the end of the fighting saw Targaryen power much diminished, and the world's last dragons vastly reduced in number.The Dance was a war unlike any other ever fought in the long history of the Seven Kingdoms. Though armies marched and met in savage battle, much of the slaughter took place on water, and… especially… in the air, as dragon fought dragon with tooth and claw and flame. It was a war marked by stealth, murder, and betrayal as well, a war fought in shadows and stairwells, council chambers and castle yards, with knives and lies and poison.I am trying to imagine how his conversation with his editor went...You have brought up a thing I never mentioned, congratulations. Well misread, well misread indeed.In any case, I don't think I will be reading this, so I will remove myself from the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 In any case, I don't think I will be reading this, so I will remove myself from the thread. Maybe you could download the audiobook and avoid the commas altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 All the books and theories draw on all the books and theories. Incorporating what we learned about tPaTQ into our existing knowledge base is not a simple thing. Many existing theories changed based on new info. There are lots of parallels, and lots to be guessed at due to the heavy editing. In any case I'm sure we're all very grateful that you took the time to put down something we're having fun with. I am not putting it down, and I understand the eagerness of the readers to integrate it into the rest of the world of Westeros. Didn't mean to offend, I am just surprised at the volume of comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I am not putting it down, and I understand the eagerness of the readers to integrate it into the rest of the world of Westeros. Didn't mean to offend, I am just surprised at the volume of comments. No problem. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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