[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[RumHam]

The quote from D&E that I can find is in Eustace Osgrey's list of shoulda-woulda-coulda, where he says "if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous..." But there's no mention of Harrenhal there, and as far as I'm aware no confirmation that the Lothstons held Harrenhal before the Blackfyre Rebellion, rather than getting it after, a la Littlefinger.

So might House Strong have held on longer than we think? Perhaps Larys could even have switched over to the blacks later in the Dance. Prince Daemon did have a source on the Council, and it's been suggested that Larys was playing both sides.

It's possible. There were a lot of "probablys" in that last post of mine. It's possible that the Strong hostages Daemon took were removed from or fled Harrenhal before Aemond came back to burn it, or that some of them survived by hiding underground. Even if they were all wiped out there's still Larys (who for the record I don't think was Daemons man. He almost singlehandedly kept the war going when Rhaenyra took Kings Landing.) We know Aegon II dies six months after the story ends (not sure how.) and that the blacks end up controlling the regency of the young Aegon III. It's possible someone takes revenge on Larys, or he's simply removed from his office and sent home to the now burnt Harrenhal and all his heirs are dead. He then has marry and produce an heir before he dies, or there goes house Strong. So we don't know for sure how house Strong met their end, but based on the limited information we do have The Dance seems like the best bet.

As for Lothston we don't actually know for sure that they got Harrenhal right after House Strong, there's some semi-cannon stuff from an RPG that says they did. But really It could have gone from House Strong to House Towers and then House Lothston. I'm inclined to think the RPG order is right, just cause it jives with what little information we have right now.

• House Qoherys - Killed by Harren the Red

House Towers - Possibly took the wrong side in the rebellion of the faith during Aenys' and Maegor's time

House Harroway - We know Maegor had a Harroway wife, so this fits time wise. Maybe they lost it when she displeased him.

House Strong - covered that already.

House Lothston - Probably the rebel lord who took out Maekar, and then was in turn killed by Ser Illifer's grandfather or great grandfather.

[Lord Varys]

It's very unlikely that House Strong did survive the Dance, or was allowed to keep Harrenhal after the Dance. Especially not since it's obvious that Lord Larys Strong sided very strongly with the Greens. We should also assume that Larys resurfaced from wherever he hid after Rhaenyra took KL (most likely within Varys's secret lair beneath the Red Keep), and rose to prominent position and office again during the 4 months of Aegon II's restoration to the Iron Throne (i.e. he resumed the office of Master of Whisperers and/or was even named Hand of the King - the fact that Ser Tyland also served in that capacity doesn't mean that Larys could not).

I can't see Larys surviving the war, especially not if he is in a prominent position at the very end of the war.

Since no sons of Larys are mentioned it's quite likely that he has none. That could mean that the main line of House Strong ends with Larys. And it's also quite likely that the Strong castellan and his sons, who were originally captured by Daemon, did not survive the multiple battles at/near Harrenhal.

A short word on Maester conspiracies:

I don't see much evidence for a dragon-slaying conspiracy yet, although if there was any my guess is that Citadel agents did play a huge role in the King's Landing riots. Gyldayn blames a begging brother, but the maesters could have been involved in that whole thing as well. Especially if we think about the mad charge on the Dragonpit. There are poisons in Westeros that can induce a mad rage that can numb pain, are there not?

Anyway, the two important incidents where maester foul play could be involved are:

1. The Maidenpool indicent

It could be anything. The maester may just want to make his role more important (say, by stating that he was the one who came up with the idea to tell Daemon the truth). I'm quite sure that he did not suggest that Lord Manfryd Mooton sent him to Rhaenyra to execute him as a traitor. Since we don't know what led to Rhaenyra sending the letter (meaning that Gyldayn did not give an account who that letter wrote or who it sent to Maidenpool) it's also not impossible that this whole thing was rigged (at least to a degree) by people in Rhaenyra's administration who wanted to separate her and Daemon.

2. The Borros Baratheon situation

When rereading this one realizes quickly that Lord Borros may have actually been tricked by his maester. He cannot read, that's a well-known fact. It's also well-known that House Baratheon is kin of Princess Rhaenys, and did strongly support the claims of her children (and thus also the claims of Rhaenyra's three elder sons) in the past. If Ser Otto and Alicent are not stupid - and they aren't - they would ensure that the Citadel send a Green maester (or a maester championing Andal law) to Storm's End.

We never learn the contents or the phrasing of Rhaenyra's letter to Lord Borros, but in Gyldanyn's account he starts to reject Rhaenyra quite harshly after his maester has whispered the (alleged) contents of the letter into his ear. Only then he is under the impression that Rhaenyra considers him her dog, or something like that. That's quite telling, is it not?

It could have gone like that:

1. Ser Otto/Alicent pulling the strings back at Oldtown through Lord Ormund (who most likely is Ser Otto's nephew, by the way, since he does not have any grown up sons upon his death) and ensures that a maester of their choosing is sent to Storm's End when the old maester died (this could have been a decade or so ago, it must not have been a recent move).

2. Alicent - knowing that they have a secret ally in Storm's End - sends Aemond on Vhagar to Borros as a show of force and a very tempting offer. Otto and Alicent don't think Rhaenyra will send send any envoys on dragonback to Storm's End since they think she takes the Baratheon loyalty for granted.

3. When Lucerys arrives, Lord Borros is really ashamed 'as if he was found abed with a mistress'. And he has not yet made up his mind yet. Even if they were about to agree on a marriage contract, Borros could have had the chance to seize Aemond. All he needed to do to neutralize (or at least to reduce the threat Vhagar posed) was to separate dragon and rider, and then let the dragon fly where he would.

4. When the maester gives Borros a greatly distorted version of Rhaenyra's plea for help, most likely stating that Rhaenyra was commanding him with harsh words instead of pleading or asking, he decided to go along with Aemond's demands. But even then he did not decide to take a more active role in Lucerys's demise.

[Adam Feldman]

It's very unlikely that House Strong did survive the Dance, or was allowed to keep Harrenhal after the Dance. Especially not since it's obvious that Lord Larys Strong sided very strongly with the Greens.

House Hightower survived and kept their lands, so far as we know. We know practically nothing about how Aegon II's downfall played out. There was a marriage arrangement between his daughter and Aegon III, so obviously some temporary understanding was reached between the greens and blacks, even if the Velaryons got the upper hand in the end.

Since no sons of Larys are mentioned it's quite likely that he has none.

We all know at this point how edited-down the novella is, so I don't agree here.

The reason I asked is that I was looking into the possibility that Larys Strong could be an ancestor of Varys. With their similar names, jobs, personas, Aegon-smuggling exploits, and extensive knowledge of Maegor's passages, the resemblances are obvious. And there are two (alleged) Strongs with the Golden Company in ADWD. If Varys is descended from a female line of Daemon Blackfyre, that still leaves at least one husband to be accounted for, and perhaps that was a Strong. There's no actual evidence for any of this, but I was wondering about such possibilities as the Strongs backing Daemon in the Blackfyre Rebellion and being exiled as a result, or perhaps even Daemon's wife being a Strong (I've never been quite satisfied with any of the theories about who she was). Hopefully the World of Ice and Fire will clarify the fate of the Strongs.

[sertravisredbeard]

Since the Lord Lothston is mentioned as betraying Daemon and the family still controlling Harrenhall during the Dunk and Egg tales mean that the Strongs had been gone from Harrenhall some time before the Blackfyre Rebellion?

[mb2518]

The story was still good. Biggest issue for me was not really getting to know the characters. They didn't feel like actual people because of how the Dance is written/presented to the reader.

[Jaederys Targaryen]

The story was still good. Biggest issue for me was not really getting to know the characters. They didn't feel like actual people because of how the Dance is written/presented to the reader.

I thought that, I wish it had been a bigger read so we could have got to have known the characters and the dragons a bit better.

[Dagon]

Everybody Loves Aemond.

[Lord Varys]

The differences between Houses Hightower and Strong are many:

1. Merely Ser Otto Hightower and his daughter wielded powerful positions at KL, and they are already dead and/or may die/be punished during the fall of Aegon II.

2. Lord Ormund Hightower led an army against Rhaenyra, but it was defeated/ripped to pieces before Aegon II was restored. Lord Ormund died with it, and his sons - the heirs to Oldtown - where not involved in any of that. If we assume that Prince Maelor never got to Oldtown the Hightowers would not be all that much involved in the last battles of the Dance.

On the other hand we have Larys strong singlehandedly saving the crown for Aegon II. If he resurfaces and is raised high during Aegon's last months this may explain why the Strongs are eradicated. We have no yet heard anything about the Lothstons, but the way Aemond and Daemon treated Harrenhal it's not unlikely that no one claimed the castle after the Dance. It may be that the Lothstons only get it a decade or so later, when they have amassed wealth enough to accept a costly seat like Harrenhal. Whoever takes it after Larys has not only maintain it but also rebuild it.

You are right that we don't yet know what happens to Aegon II, but I have the feeling that Young Aegon is not going to be all that forgiving or merciful. He may have to marry Jaehaera to reunite the Targaryen lines, but this does not mean that he cannot execute or command his uncle's assassination. It's either that, I think, or Aegon II eventually succumbs to his wounds. He can't die in battle in the sense that he is actively participating in it. If Aegon III remains a prisoner for the remainder of the war (which we don't know, either) the first order he may give after he is freed is to execute his uncle. There has to be an answer to Rhaenyra's execution.

[Hank Scorpio]

Something interesting I found out about House Wylde

Member of House Wylde after the Dance

• Criston Wylde -> Christon Cole
  
• Jon Wylde -> Jon Roxton
  
• Ormund Wylde -> Ormund Hightower
  

(with Stannis at Winterfell)

• Rickard Wylde -> Rickard Thorne
  
• Casper Wylde -> Jasper Wylde
  

​ (the actual Lord)

• Tyana Wylde -> Tyland Lannister
  

And Tyanas oldest son is Aegon Frey -> he is the second Aegon after Jinglebell in the Frey family.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Everybody Loves Aemond.

I just got that. LOL

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Something interesting I found out about House Wylde

Member of House Wylde after the Dance

• Criston Wylde -> Christon Cole

• Jon Wylde -> Jon Roxton

Ormund Wylde -> Ormund Hightower

(with Stannis at Winterfell)

• Rickard Wylde -> Rickard Thorne

• Casper Wylde -> Jasper Wylde

​ (the actual Lord)

• Tyana Wylde -> Tyland Lannister

And Tyanas oldest son is Aegon Frey -> he is the second Aegon after Jinglebell in the Frey family.

Is there a point you're trying to make? Because I can't see it :)

[The hairy bear]

I have the feeling that Young Aegon is not going to be all that forgiving or merciful. He may have to marry Jaehaera to reunite the Targaryen lines, but this does not mean that he cannot execute or command his uncle's assassination. It's either that, I think, or Aegon II eventually succumbs to his wounds. He can't die in battle in the sense that he is actively participating in it. If Aegon III remains a prisoner for the remainder of the war (which we don't know, either) the first order he may give after he is freed is to execute his uncle. There has to be an answer to Rhaenyra's execution.

I don't share your view of Aegon III as a vindictive king. We've got three clues pointing in the opposite direction: lord Manfryd will become his regent, he'll wear a golden chain that's basically the symbol of Aegon II, and most of all, he'll never reinstate his mother in the official list of kings. Those are three things that I don't see him doing if he was a die hard black.

House Strong was big at the time. We are told that they are wealthy, and even if Larys had no offspring, we know there's a Simon Strong who has grandsons. I could buy Aegon III offing Larys, but not wiping out an entire family. If he wanted revenge, there'd be much more obvious candidates: House Baratheon (responsible for Lucerys' murder) or the lords that had sworn fealty to Rhaenyra and broke there oaths.

As per the manner of Aegon II's death, I agree that he can't die in battle. Your suggestion that he dies from his wounds is quite likely. Another option that I'd put forward is that he comitted suicide after some black victory. If he had seen a black army advancing towards KL, he may have preferred to end his live in his own terms. Perhaps, before killing himself, he could have married his daughter to Aegon III to ensure that her live would be respected.

Something interesting I found out about House Wylde

I can't see what's interesting, either. Many nobles from multiple houses share their first name, if that's what you mean.

[RumHam]

House Strong was big at the time. We are told that they are wealthy, and even if Larys had no offspring, we know there's a Simon Strong who has grandsons. I could buy Aegon III offing Larys, but not wiping out an entire family. If he wanted revenge, there'd be much more obvious candidates: House Baratheon (responsible for Lucerys' murder) or the lords that had sworn fealty to Rhaenyra and broke there oaths.

The theory is that Simon and his grandsons were killed by Aemond and Vhagar.

The Kinslayer then returned unexpectedly to Harrenhal, where he burned every wooden structure in the castle. Six knights and two score men-at-arms perished trying to slay his dragon.

I'm assuming those were Strong knights, and since the castle is abandoned but for a few squatters when Daemon arrives it's likely that the Strongs were killed or else why abandon their castle instead of rebuilding?

[Lord Varys]

Well, Aegon III may not turn out to be vindictive. But if Viserys, and not Aegon, turns out to be the Black figurehead, he may be less forgiving. And essentially it does not matter what the young princes want, it will be important what the grown-ups round them want or consider necessary. The fact that Lord Manfryd serves as Regent at one point is no confirmation that the Greens have any say in the administration of Aegon III. My guess is that the Mootons switch back the Black cause after Rhaenyra's death. They had a problem with her, not with her children, and I think the manner of Rhaenyra's demise may cause the Mootons to reconsider their loyalties.

Aegon II committing suicide does seem to be stretch to me. I only can see him doing this if the KL and the Red Keep are taken by a Black army.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't share your view of Aegon III as a vindictive king. We've got three clues pointing in the opposite direction: lord Manfryd will become his regent, he'll wear a golden chain that's basically the symbol of Aegon II, and most of all, he'll never reinstate his mother in the official list of kings. Those are three things that I don't see him doing if he was a die hard black.

Perhaps he didn't reinstate Rhaenyra because he blamed her for the deaths of 4 of his siblings? (although obviously, Visenya's death wasn't Rhaenyra's fault, but it wouldn't be the first time someone blames an innocent person for anotherones death when childbirth is involved, like Tywin blaming Tyrion for Joanna's death).

[The Prince of Magpies]

Apologies is this has already been discussed, but I think I can be forgiven for not trawling through 85 pages for it. I was just looking on the wiki and it lists Daemon as a son of Jaehaerys I on the family tree, but under Jaehaerys' entry, it says that Daemon may have only possibly been his son. To me, it seems to make more sense age-wise for Daemon to be a son of Aemon or Baelon ie cousin or brother to Viserys I. I've only read the story twice; is there something I've missed that implies Daemon is Jaehaerys' son?

EDIT: Just realised that he can't be Aemon's son, or he would have probably been king. But I still got the impression that it made more sense for him to be Baelon's son that Jaehaerys'.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Apologies is this has already been discussed, but I think I can be forgiven for not trawling through 85 pages for it. I was just looking on the wiki and it lists Daemon as a son of Jaehaerys I on the family tree, but under Jaehaerys' entry, it says that Daemon may have only possibly been his son. To me, it seems to make more sense age-wise for Daemon to be a son of Aemon or Baelon ie cousin or brother to Viserys I. I've only read the story twice; is there something I've missed that implies Daemon is Jaehaerys' son?

EDIT: Just realised that he can't be Aemon's son, or he would have probably been king. But I still got the impression that it made more sense for him to be Baelon's son that Jaehaerys'.

Daemon was Viserys' brother :)

This family tree might give you a better idea (I don't know which one you saw) http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Viserys_I_Targaryen

Keep in mind that Baelon being Viserys' and Daemons father hasn't been confirmed yet.

[Lord Varys]

Daemon is definitely the younger brother of Viserys I. Princess Rhaenys is most likely not their sibling, and thus Viserys and Daemon aren't Aemon's children. Whether Baelon is Aemon's younger brother (and thus a younger son of Jaehaerys I who may also be the father of Viserys and Daemon), a younger brother of Rhaenys, a younger brother of Aemon who is not the father of Viserys and Daemon, or another grandson of Jaehaerys through an as of yet unknown son/daughter we don't know yet.

[The Prince of Magpies]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys. I await that Targaryen family tree in TWOIAF with baited breath.

[Grievous]

I wonder about the Hightower family tree:

"Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the hightower ..."

What do you think, does "his sons" in the quote refer to Ormund or Bryndon?

Too bad we're not given any clues to Otto Hightower's relation to Ormund, either. He could be a younger brother, or an uncle, really.