[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, I think we are being told that Dany's (or Rhaenyra's) kid wasn't a mutation... but the standard for Targryen children. I'm kinda surprised there hasn't been a bigger uproar about this.

Two children out of 127 descendants I just now counted off of a family tree. And that count doesn't even add all the Baratheon descendants from Orys, since there isn't a lot of certainty about that.

That's 127 Targaryens, and their Martell descendants through Daenerys, and their Baratheon descendants through Rhaelle.

2 out of a minimum of 127... That doesn't sound like there necessarily is something amiss to me. If it was something "in the family" there would be more occasions.

I'd say google about malformations at birth, but following a medical study and actually having seen this for myself in real life, I suggest you only really google if you have a strong stomach. A lot of things can go wrong during birth. Though I admit to never having heard of scales (which IMO is impossible for a human in real life), perhaps there is something that might make the child appear to have scales, due to strange colouring of the skin. Perhaps with all the veins turning blue and the skin turning white (or even almost see-through) it could appear as a scale-pattern.

[Cas Stark]

That GRRM, what a character, LOL.

So, on the one hand, it makes no objective sense that Valaryian blood in and of itself would subdue dragons, why the civilization of shepherds would somehow intrinsically have the capacity to harness dragon power.

Yet, the Targaryen actions, dragonseed, the later generations obsessive attempts at hatching dragons and turning into dragons...supports the view that there IS something about their blood that is important.

I'm not sure we should be using objective medical criteria on evaluating weird dragon like birth defects in a single family....I'm guessing they are in there for a reason, but it could be a red herring reason, no way to tell until it's all done.

[Grievous]

Two children out of 127 descendants I just now counted off of a family tree. And that count doesn't even add all the Baratheon descendants from Orys, since there isn't a lot of certainty about that.

That's 127 Targaryens, and their Martell descendants through Daenerys, and their Baratheon descendants through Rhaelle.

2 out of a minimum of 127... That doesn't sound like there necessarily is something amiss to me. If it was something "in the family" there would be more occasions.

Ahh, I guess I should have iterated further. We have seen 2 miscarried Targaryen babes. Both of them were similarly malformed. That's not 2/127, but 2/2. I think it's a possibility that all Targaryens are like that in the womb, but shed these draconic traits as they get closer to term and are born fully human in appearance. It's just a theory, of course.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yeah, I think we are being told that Dany's (or Rhaenyra's) kid wasn't a mutation... but the standard for Targryen children. I'm kinda surprised there hasn't been a bigger uproar about this.

Oh but there has been. In one of the threads on this board, some readers argued that the wee dragon babies were proof of Targs mating with dragons. I shit you not.

[mankytoes]

Even Valyria must have had peasants. Also, it would have been much easier to search for candidates at home if you know there should be plenty since your grandfathers had been happy in the crotch and had sewn mostly around one certain location than sending ships to another continent and herding people there.

Anyhow, the hypothetical "dragon-riding" gene woudn't make the Targaryens genetically superior to all others. Not more than the inborn ability to warg makes the First Men genetically superior to the Andals.

ETA: Certainly it wouldn't give them any greater moral right to rule. It just means they would have a bigger stick to beat their rivals with, so to speak. Nothing more.

The fact that dragons are recognised as "magic" would imply the Targs are supernatural themselves, higher than other humans and blessed by Gods.

[Flig]

Yet, the Targaryen actions, dragonseed, the later generations obsessive attempts at hatching dragons and turning into dragons...supports the view that there IS something about their blood that is important.

No, all this supports is that the Targaryens believe that there is something about their blood that is important.

[Cas Stark]

They are the only ones who had dragons...and it looks like they did believe it, not just that they were putting it forth as propaganda...so, if it wasn't true, and they're the ones with the dragons, why would they believe it? I guess it's conceivable the truth was lost in the move from Valyria and they got fact and fiction wrong somehow...but there is a lot of evidence that there is something going on with Valyrian blood, despite how illogical it is in context of the dragon discovery overall.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ahh, I guess I should have iterated further. We have seen 2 miscarried Targaryen babes. Both of them were similarly malformed. That's not 2/127, but 2/2. I think it's a possibility that all Targaryens are like that in the womb, but shed these draconic traits as they get closer to term and are born fully human in appearance. It's just a theory, of course.

.

Both Dany and Rhaenyra were close to term. Rhaenyra a month too early, and with Dany, it was only a matter of days. Getting closer to human appearance would have to happen sooner than an few days before birth. Even if I consider the fact that GRRM didn't pay attention to the proces from embryo to child. A complete skin change as a normal standard would not be possible.

[Red Raven]

I don't think people think one needs to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. I think people are looking into the series and thinking why would Martin create this character. It may be because fans have it wrong with them thinking that a person needs to be a Targaryen or of the Valyrian bloodline to ride a dragon. He puts a person in there and gives that person attributes that aren't very Valryianish to give fans a hint. He won't just come out and say that Nettles is not of the Valyrian bloodline, but there are clues that could potentially point to it.

It doesn't mean she doesn't have Targaryen/Valyrian blood. Brown Ben Plumm also has Targ blood but doesn't look stereotypically Targ at all. Same with Sarella Sand; she also has Targaryen blood yet looks much like her Summer Islander mother.

Meanwhile the Daynes have platinum hair and purple eyes and they're not Targ/Valyrian at all. They're descended from the First Men.

I think if Nettles is a lesson for anything, it's to not be too quick to make assumptions based on appearances.

[The hairy bear]

A lot of things can go wrong during birth. Though I admit to never having heard of scales (which IMO is impossible for a human in real life), perhaps there is something that might make the child appear to have scales, due to strange colouring of the skin. Perhaps with all the veins turning blue and the skin turning white (or even almost see-through) it could appear as a scale-pattern.

Ichthyosis is a real genetic disease that causes the skin to have an scale-like appearance. It fits quite well with the facts, since according to this interesting article it is related to inbreeding, and in the past it was fatal within a few days after birth.

Today, some get to reach adulthood. Here's a video about an eight year boy Chineese with the disease, called "the fish boy" in his town. Had he been born in Westeros, surely he'd be known as the dragon boy.

[lojzelote]

The fact that dragons are recognised as "magic" would imply the Targs are supernatural themselves, higher than other humans and blessed by Gods.

And what of it? Skinchanging is "magic" too, the same goes for being a greenseer, no? The Stark kids, blessed by the old gods, six direwolves for the six of them to watch over them and protect them from people who want to hurt them. Does it make them so "special" from the rest of humanity? Supernatural, even?

About deformed children; I think that Martin put it there for a reason. He could have just made Visenya a stillborn cute baby girl, Rhaenyra would still rage and grieve all the same. Plus, it seems awfully... symbolic? that the two Targaryen matriarchs who claimed Queenship both had such defected baby. One near the twilight of dragons (most of them died during the Dance, and the rest might have been killed because of what had happened then) and the second shortly before they returned back to the world. Not saying that Visenya's deformities caused the dragons to go extinct, just that I think there's something going on, although I cannot put a finger on it.

Of course it's also possible that what Cas Stark says is true and it may be a red herring. :dunno:

[Lost Melnibonean]

It doesn't mean she doesn't have Targaryen/Valyrian blood. Brown Ben Plumm also has Targ blood but doesn't look stereotypically Targ at all. Same with Sarella Sand; she also has Targaryen blood yet looks much like her Summer Islander mother.

Meanwhile the Daynes have platinum hair and purple eyes and they're not Targ/Valyrian at all. They're descended from the First Men.

I think if Nettles is a lesson for anything, it's to not be too quick to make assumptions based on appearances.

And there's the consummate Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear...

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.

Its said he favors his mother, the boy reminded him. She was a Dornish princess.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It doesn't mean she doesn't have Targaryen/Valyrian blood. Brown Ben Plumm also has Targ blood but doesn't look stereotypically Targ at all. Same with Sarella Sand; she also has Targaryen blood yet looks much like her Summer Islander mother.

Meanwhile the Daynes have platinum hair and purple eyes and they're not Targ/Valyrian at all. They're descended from the First Men.

I think if Nettles is a lesson for anything, it's to not be too quick to make assumptions based on appearances.

And there's the consummate Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear...

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.

Its said he favors his mother, the boy reminded him. She was a Dornish princess.

According to Brown Ben Plumm, he has Targaryen blood. I don't recall any other person ever mentioning a marriage between a Targaryen and a Plumm.

Daeron the Drunken favored his grandmother, with his plain hair. And Baelor Breakspear's children looked slightly more Valyrian than their father, yet Myriahs looks were present in them as well.

And little Rhaenys looked like Elia, and not like Rhaegar, to make the Targaryen list complete :)

[lojzelote]

According to Brown Ben Plumm, he has Targaryen blood. I don't recall any other person ever mentioning a marriage between a Targaryen and a Plumm.

Tyrion seems to be familiar with it, too. Unless he only knows what rumours Ben is sprouting and humours him.

“I know you as well, my lord,” said Tyrion. “You’re less purple and more brown than the Plumms

at home, but unless your name’s a lie, you’re a westerman, by blood if not by birth. House Plumm is

sworn to Casterly Rock, and as it happens I know a bit of its history. Your branch sprouted from a stone

spit across the narrow sea, no doubt. A younger son of Viserys Plumm, I’d wager. The queen’s dragons

were fond of you, were they not?”

That seemed to amuse the sellsword. “Who told you that?”

“No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons,

dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling

with sphinxes … nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that

the queen’s dragons took to you, but I know why.”

“My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood.”

“Two drops. That, or a cock six feet long. You know that tale? I do. Now, you’re a clever Plumm,

so you know this head of mine is worth a lordship … back in Westeros, half a world away. By the time

you get it there, only bone and maggots will remain. My sweet sister will deny the head is mine and

cheat you of the promised reward. You know how it is with queens. Fickle cunts, the lot of them, and

Cersei is the worst.”

Cersei does mention Ossifer Plumm's... big equipment as well, but she says nothing of who his widow was.

It is also possible that Brown Ben or his (grand)father claimed a surname that doesn't truly belong to him, but it is equally possible that his ancestor came from an impoverished branch which left Westeros to make better living as a sellsword in Essos. :dunno:

Also, "Viserys" Plumm suggests that there was a Targ in the family at some point, although OTOH there are also Baelor Breakwind Hightower, Rhaegar and Aegon Frey, Daemon Sand, who are not related to the Targs.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tyrion seems to be familiar with it, too. Unless he only knows what rumours Ben is sprouting and humours him.

I know you as well, my lord, said Tyrion. Youre less purple and more brown than the Plumms

at home, but unless your names a lie, youre a westerman, by blood if not by birth. House Plumm is

sworn to Casterly Rock, and as it happens I know a bit of its history. Your branch sprouted from a stone

spit across the narrow sea, no doubt. A younger son of Viserys Plumm, Id wager. The queens dragons

were fond of you, were they not?

That seemed to amuse the sellsword. Who told you that?

No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons,

dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling

with sphinxes nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that

the queens dragons took to you, but I know why.

My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood.

Two drops. That, or a cock six feet long. You know that tale? I do. Now, youre a clever Plumm,

so you know this head of mine is worth a lordship back in Westeros, half a world away. By the time

you get it there, only bone and maggots will remain. My sweet sister will deny the head is mine and

cheat you of the promised reward. You know how it is with queens. Fickle cunts, the lot of them, and

Cersei is the worst.

Cersei does mention Ossifer Plumm's... big equipment as well, but she says nothing of who his widow was.

It is also possible that Brown Ben or his (grand)father claimed a surname that doesn't truly belong to him, but it is equally possible that his ancestor came from an impoverished branch which left Westeros to make better living as a sellsword in Essos. :dunno:

Also, "Viserys" Plumm suggests that there was a Targ in the family at some point, although OTOH there are also Baelor Breakwind Hightower, Rhaegar and Aegon Frey, Daemon Sand, who are not related to the Targs.

Allright then. In that case my memory failed me on this :) thank you for providing the info :D

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Oh but there has been. In one of the threads on this board, some readers argued that the wee dragon babies were proof of Targs mating with dragons. I shit you not.

This was one of the best threads I ever read. I wish I had it bookmarked. Do you remember what it is called? That theory is my #1 crackpot.

[AegonTheSeventh]

after a bit of reading, I've come up with a few theories:

My theories on the history behind the series

The Stark family tree reads like this:

Brandon the Daughterless-->unnamed daughter-->Jonnel Stark/Snow-->Cregan-->-->several generations-->Ned&co

facts: It’s said that Alysanne visited the wall because she was bored, and there’s another theory floating out there that they came with dragons to get the Starks to stop backing Rhaenys.

What if there’s another reason, and that’s wildlings are causing trouble and it’s more of a deal than a threat. The crown helps to deal with the wildlings and helps out the Night’s Watch but in return, they withdraw their support from Rhaenys. Even more, what if they offered to legitimize his grandson?

There's a Brandon Stark in the crypts not too far from Cregan.

There's also a Jonnel Stark in that area in the crypts. Ygritte said Jon Snow is an evil name. If he is the grandson, then he's a great candidate for the kinslayer Jon Snow.

Jonnel had one eye. The bastard grandson fought in at least one war and died fighting. Plenty of opportunities to lose an eye.

Lord Cregan was 10 during the Dance of Dragons and he stayed in Winterfell the entire time. He only sent the Manderlys to help out with the war. This is because he’s finishing up stuff with wildlings, who have teamed up with house Bolton and killed his father. Someone else mentioned in this thread that it's possible that he's the Stark in Winterfell, which points to him being the last of the family.

It’s said that all of the current Starks are descended from Brandon’s grandson, who only lived to be thirty. That means that he left at least one child behind but his kid(s) are likely to be very young. Dance of Dragons Cregan fits the description. As for wearing his skin and the Boltons giving up the practice of flaying 1000 years ago, I believe this Lord Bolton didn’t literally flay the Stark guy as much as took over Winterfell briefly before Cregan took it back.

Theory 2: Alyn Oakenfist's lover

And also, if I remember correctly, it wasn’t expressed stated which Targaryen princess was in love with Alyn Oakenfist, so I think the mother of Jon and Jeyne Waters was not Elaena but rather, either Rhaena or Baela. Rennifer only said a Targaryen princess. They’re the same age as him and it’s very much possible that one of these twins went on to marry three times. Since Alyn inherited the Velaryon seat and Corlys seemed to love his wife, I believe he was a bastard of a deceased older brother or nephew of Corlys rather than Corlys himself, hence the word cousin. He was literally a cousin. It could also be that they're bastards of a younger brother and Alyn married the older twin to legitimize his claim but fell in love with the other sister. If this is all true, then it’s also possible that Aegon III’s wife is Alyn or Addam’s daughter.

[childofsummer]

Apologies if someone has brought this up before - I can't fit in 80 pages of posts tonight, but I did do a text search and didn't pull it up. :)

Why do you think the Iron Throne cut Rhaenyra? Is it a sort of madness detector? I think the books specifically mention that Joffrey and Aerys the Mad had issues with the throne, and they were both psycho. Rhaenyra was also rather unbalanced (paranoid) when she claimed it. I don't remember anything about sane, confident sitters having issues - even people who weren't supposed to be there, like Jaime Lannister, so I'm questioning the whole rightful-monarch-detector-ness of the seat.

[kaspar]

Why do you think the Iron Throne cut Rhaenyra?

If I remember the whole thing correctly she had armor on when she first sat on the throne. If that's so I think just our maester pov is trying to show us she's not the rightful queen and in fact nothing like that happened.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

after a bit of reading, I've come up with a few theories:

My theories on the history behind the series

The Stark family tree reads like this:

Brandon the Daughterless-->unnamed daughter-->Jonnel Stark/Snow-->Cregan-->-->several generations-->Ned&co

facts: Its said that Alysanne visited the wall because she was bored, and theres another theory floating out there that they came with dragons to get the Starks to stop backing Rhaenys.

What if theres another reason, and thats wildlings are causing trouble and its more of a deal than a threat. The crown helps to deal with the wildlings and helps out the Nights Watch but in return, they withdraw their support from Rhaenys. Even more, what if they offered to legitimize his grandson?

There's a Brandon Stark in the crypts not too far from Cregan.

There's also a Jonnel Stark in that area in the crypts. Ygritte said Jon Snow is an evil name. If he is the grandson, then he's a great candidate for the kinslayer Jon Snow.

Jonnel had one eye. The bastard grandson fought in at least one war and died fighting. Plenty of opportunities to lose an eye.

Lord Cregan was 10 during the Dance of Dragons and he stayed in Winterfell the entire time. He only sent the Manderlys to help out with the war. This is because hes finishing up stuff with wildlings, who have teamed up with house Bolton and killed his father. Someone else mentioned in this thread that it's possible that he's the Stark in Winterfell, which points to him being the last of the family.

Its said that all of the current Starks are descended from Brandons grandson, who only lived to be thirty. That means that he left at least one child behind but his kid(s) are likely to be very young. Dance of Dragons Cregan fits the description. As for wearing his skin and the Boltons giving up the practice of flaying 1000 years ago, I believe this Lord Bolton didnt literally flay the Stark guy as much as took over Winterfell briefly before Cregan took it back.

Theory 2: Alyn Oakenfist's lover

And also, if I remember correctly, it wasnt expressed stated which Targaryen princess was in love with Alyn Oakenfist, so I think the mother of Jon and Jeyne Waters was not Elaena but rather, either Rhaena or Baela. Rennifer only said a Targaryen princess. Theyre the same age as him and its very much possible that one of these twins went on to marry three times. Since Alyn inherited the Velaryon seat and Corlys seemed to love his wife, I believe he was a bastard of a deceased older brother or nephew of Corlys rather than Corlys himself, hence the word cousin. He was literally a cousin. It could also be that they're bastards of a younger brother and Alyn married the older twin to legitimize his claim but fell in love with the other sister. If this is all true, then its also possible that Aegon IIIs wife is Alyn or Addams daughter.

Elaena has been specifically mentioned by GRRM to have been Alyns lover.