[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[CosimaistheHottest]

I don't think people think one needs to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. I think people are looking into the series and thinking why would Martin create this character. It may be because fans have it wrong with them thinking that a person needs to be a Targaryen or of the Valyrian bloodline to ride a dragon. He puts a person in there and gives that person attributes that aren't very Valryianish to give fans a hint. He won't just come out and say that Nettles is not of the Valyrian bloodline, but there are clues that could potentially point to it.

[Mother Other]

Nettles is a Kardashian :drunk:

Yep, we know there are skinchangers and wargs who are not Starks. I think it will be the same with dragon riders who are not Targs.

[mankytoes]

You don't need to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. ;)

Robb looked like a Tully, yet we know he was a Stark. Little Rhaenys looked like Elia, but Rhaegar was her father.

Nettles could have looked more like her mothers family, even though her father (or grandfather) was a Targaryen (or someone with Valyrian blood).

I think it's possible Nettles had Targaryen blood, yes.

I get that, though I did say Targ blood, not Valyrian blood. Don't most people in Lys have strong Valyrian blood? Why not just ship over loads of them, if that's the case?

And Joffrey could have still been a Baratheon... Targ blood appears strong as well, hence rare features like purple eyes have survived.

I'm not saying it's impossible Nettles had dragonblood, I'm saying; what is the point of her character, from a narrative perspective? I think the reason she's described repeatedly as "dark" is to hint to the reader that Targ blood is NOT needed to ride a dragon.

[The hairy bear]

but for the life of me i can't figure out what this 'world book' is....im dying to consume more source material!

There's a whole subforum devoted to the world book, titled "the World of Ice and Fire". However, the biggest part of "the source material" won't be included there. If we are ever able to read it, it will be in a potential future book provisionally referred to as the GRRMarillion that would be many years down the road.

I don't think people think one needs to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. I think people are looking into the series and thinking why would Martin create this character. It may be because fans have it wrong with them thinking that a person needs to be a Targaryen or of the Valyrian bloodline to ride a dragon. He puts a person in there and gives that person attributes that aren't very Valryianish to give fans a hint. He won't just come out and say that Nettles is not of the Valyrian bloodline, but there are clues that could potentially point to it.

That interpretation would have more weight if it weren't because in the very same text, the author gives us an even stronger hint supporting that only people with Valyrian blood can ride dragons.

The text explicitly explains how there were many attempts to tame dragons by people that were not from dragonstone. It cites "a score of the queen's houshold knights" (inlcuding Ser Steffon Darklyn), along with squires, scullions, saliors, men-at-arms, mummers and two maids. They all failed. Afterwards, after Tumbleton, two knights from the Reach try to ride Silverwing and fail.

In fact, we have enough data to construct some rough statistics: we know of 70 candidates (68 in Dragonstone + 2 in the Reach), with four successes (5,7%). At least 34 of them are clearly identified as no-seeds (32 in Dragonstone, 2 in the Reach), and all of them fail (0%). Out of the four successes, three are dubtless seeds (75%). With this data, everything suggests that you need to have Valyrian blood to tame dragons. Or at very least, that there's a very strong correlation.

[Ran]

sorry about being so daft, but could you perhaps provide a little more specific info on the world book? I finally got ahold and read the story in Dangerous Women...but for the life of me i can't figure out what this 'world book' is....im dying to consume more source material!

The World of Ice and Fire is the book being referred to.

[lojzelote]

I don't think people think one needs to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. I think people are looking into the series and thinking why would Martin create this character. It may be because fans have it wrong with them thinking that a person needs to be a Targaryen or of the Valyrian bloodline to ride a dragon. He puts a person in there and gives that person attributes that aren't very Valryianish to give fans a hint. He won't just come out and say that Nettles is not of the Valyrian bloodline, but there are clues that could potentially point to it.

Perhaps some of the people with distant Targaryen ancestry (such as Brown Ben Plumm or a Sand Snake) will get to ride a dragon for some time, and Martin needs to establish that although the likelihood is not such as with the "true" Targaryens, there is still a chance that some of them won the genetic lottery and inherited the dragons-like-me gene?

Or he's had enough of people bothering him there's so few PoC characters in ASoIaF, so he decided to add some badass PoCs to his works. ;)

I get that, though I did say Targ blood, not Valyrian blood. Don't most people in Lys have strong Valyrian blood? Why not just ship over loads of them, if that's the case?

And Joffrey could have still been a Baratheon... Targ blood appears strong as well, hence rare features like purple eyes have survived.

I'm not saying it's impossible Nettles had dragonblood, I'm saying; what is the point of her character, from a narrative perspective? I think the reason she's described repeatedly as "dark" is to hint to the reader that Targ blood is NOT needed to ride a dragon.

The Martells have a Targaryan ancestor (the first Daenerys), but they still look like "salty" Dornishmen.

Lyseni whores likely aren't descended from dragonlord families.

[Maia]

I don't think people think one needs to look Valyrian to have Valyrian blood. I think people are looking into the series and thinking why would Martin create this character.

To maintain uncertainty about the fate of Dany's dragons? After all, if he had confirmed that only people with Targaryen blood could ride dragons, we'd know that aspirations of various would-be dragonriders were/are silly and futile.

Also, to avoid dragons being the absolute proof of parentage, maybe.

Just as the "betrayers of Tumbleton" were introduced to prevent dragons from being seen as an unquestionable mandate to rule, IMHO, and to contradict the hoary fantasy trope that commoners suddenly given great power are going to use it so much better than corrupt, spoiled nobles;).

[Cas Stark]

Does it even make sense logically that "blood" would have an effect on dragons? Why would it? They randomly found the dragons when they were mining, and then, I thought, mostly due to magic, they were able to train them. Dany is probably somewhat different here since she is there "mother" and she nursed the 3 that we have now, but in general, it seems doubtful due to the way dragons were uncovered in the first place.

[RumHam]

Does it even make sense logically that "blood" would have an effect on dragons? Why would it? They randomly found the dragons when they were mining, and then, I thought, mostly due to magic, they were able to train them. Dany is probably somewhat different here since she is there "mother" and she nursed the 3 that we have now, but in general, it seems doubtful due to the way dragons were uncovered in the first place.

This is just a theory, but might explain why the blood of a family is important.

At one point Dany claims that Valyrians controlled their dragons with "spells and sorcerous horns." We also have Dragonbinder, the horn that Euron sent Victarian to use in his stead, that Moqorro says must be "bound with blood." What if the horns are used to bind dragons, or a family line of dragons, to a family of humans. Someone in your family blows the horn, and dies. From that point on the dragon becomes magically bound to that family, and will accept only someone from that family as a rider. Now as time goes on the blood ties to the sacrifice who blew the horn diminish with each generation. The blood bond becomes less strong and the dragon and his descendants become increasingly free to bond with whomever they choos, or no one at all. For example the son of the man who blew the horn might be able to walk right up to the dragon and form a bond, while his great great great great grandson would have a better shot at taming an adult dragon of that line than a random person, but still be taking his life in his hands to try. Much safer to bond with a freshly hatched dragon that basically thinks of you as "mama."

So at the time of the story, all known dragons would have descended from Balerion, and his ancestor who once heard a Targaryen blow a dragon binding horn back in Valyria. Having Targaryen blood would greatly improve your odds of taming one, but not be a guarantee or a strict requirement.

[Cas Stark]

That seems like plain old blood magic then, so it isn't Valyrian blood or Targaryen blood but whatever blood is bonded to the dragon.

[RumHam]

That seems like plain old blood magic then, so it isn't Valyrian blood or Targaryen blood but whatever blood is bonded to the dragon.

Well yeah, but since there were no known horns around for hundreds of years until Euron found his it was Targayen or nothing for a while. Again this is just a theory of mine to explain the horn and why Euron would give it to his brother.

[Veltigar]

snip

I like it.

[History of Westeros]

Interesting idea but then why would Euron tell Vic that blowing it will kill him? We already know Victarion has no intention of sounding it himself.

The theory could still fit but Euron can't truly know how the horn works.

[lojzelote]

Does it even make sense logically that "blood" would have an effect on dragons? Why would it? They randomly found the dragons when they were mining, and then, I thought, mostly due to magic, they were able to train them. Dany is probably somewhat different here since she is there "mother" and she nursed the 3 that we have now, but in general, it seems doubtful due to the way dragons were uncovered in the first place.

Eh, they drank some potion with dragon blood in it and mutated from it or something? Honestly, I have no idea. But Rhaenyra's daughter's appearance makes me think there's something weird going on with the dragonlords.

[Robyn El Telram]

This is just a theory, but might explain why the blood of a family is important.

At one point Dany claims that Valyrians controlled their dragons with "spells and sorcerous horns." We also have Dragonbinder, the horn that Euron sent Victarian to use in his stead, that Moqorro says must be "bound with blood." What if the horns are used to bind dragons, or a family line of dragons, to a family of humans. Someone in your family blows the horn, and dies. From that point on the dragon becomes magically bound to that family, and will accept only someone from that family as a rider. Now as time goes on the blood ties to the sacrifice who blew the horn diminish with each generation. The blood bond becomes less strong and the dragon and his descendants become increasingly free to bond with whomever they choos, or no one at all. For example the son of the man who blew the horn might be able to walk right up to the dragon and form a bond, while his great great great great grandson would have a better shot at taming an adult dragon of that line than a random person, but still be taking his life in his hands to try. Much safer to bond with a freshly hatched dragon that basically thinks of you as "mama."

So at the time of the story, all known dragons would have descended from Balerion, and his ancestor who once heard a Targaryen blow a dragon binding horn back in Valyria. Having Targaryen blood would greatly improve your odds of taming one, but not be a guarantee or a strict requirement.

If that's correct, then listen to this crackpot: Tyrion blows the horn in a desperate measure to bind a dragon to him, but dies while doing so. Dany goes to Westeros with the dragons, Jaime becomes the rider since he has the lannister blood. Surely that would make up for losing his sword hand, right?

Unless Cersei gets her hand on a dragon instead...

[RumHam]

Interesting idea but then why would Euron tell Vic that blowing it will kill him? We already know Victarion has no intention of sounding it himself.

The theory could still fit but Euron can't truly know how the horn works.

Yeah there are a few problems with the theory. (How did the Valyrian dragonlords prevent their dragons from hearing the horns of their enemies?) Moqorro says Victarian must "claim the horn with blood." However he does that I suspect that the process will bind the horn to his family, not just him personally.

[Veltigar]

Yeah there are a few problems with the theory. (How did the Valyrian dragonlords prevent their dragons from hearing the horns of their enemies?) Moqorro says Victarian must "claim the horn with blood." However he does that I suspect that the process will bind the horn to his family, not just him personally.

A possible explanation is that Euron wants to lul Victarion in feeling secure. So that when the time comes that the Dusky Woman kills him he doesn't see it coming.

I think the important thing for the actual bonding is the blood. The life can be provided by someone randomly blowing the horn, but the blood needs to be off the family.

[mankytoes]

The Martells have a Targaryan ancestor (the first Daenerys), but they still look like "salty" Dornishmen.

Lyseni whores likely aren't descended from dragonlord families.

They aren't? They have the look, don't they? Considering there were loads of these dragonlords, and they were probably mainly shagging like mad wherever they went, I don't see why not.

Personally, I'd like it if Targs weren't "genetically superior" at all, like the real kings of history, it's all smoke and mirrors. They have bonded with dragons because they've had the chance to, and have the belief they are special. Danerys' storyline makes this unlikely (as does Jon's), though the fact that they were originally shephards makes it more likely. If they are "special" it kind of justifies the whole stinking feudal system.

[lojzelote]

They aren't? They have the look, don't they? Considering there were loads of these dragonlords, and they were probably mainly shagging like mad wherever they went, I don't see why not.

Personally, I'd like it if Targs weren't "genetically superior" at all, like the real kings of history, it's all smoke and mirrors. They have bonded with dragons because they've had the chance to, and have the belief they are special. Danerys' storyline makes this unlikely (as does Jon's), though the fact that they were originally shephards makes it more likely. If they are "special" it kind of justifies the whole stinking feudal system.

Even Valyria must have had peasants. Also, it would have been much easier to search for candidates at home if you know there should be plenty since your grandfathers had been happy in the crotch and had sewn mostly around one certain location than sending ships to another continent and herding people there.

Anyhow, the hypothetical "dragon-riding" gene woudn't make the Targaryens genetically superior to all others. Not more than the inborn ability to warg makes the First Men genetically superior to the Andals.

ETA: Certainly it wouldn't give them any greater moral right to rule. It just means they would have a bigger stick to beat their rivals with, so to speak. Nothing more.

[Grievous]

Eh, they drank some potion with dragon blood in it and mutated from it or something? Honestly, I have no idea. But Rhaenyra's daughter's appearance makes me think there's something weird going on with the dragonlords.

Yeah, I think we are being told that Dany's (or Rhaenyra's) kid wasn't a mutation... but the standard for Targryen children. I'm kinda surprised there hasn't been a bigger uproar about this.