[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[History of Westeros]

I wonder about the Hightower family tree:

"Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the hightower ..."

What do you think, does "his sons" in the quote refer to Ormund or Bryndon?

Too bad we're not given any clues to Otto Hightower's relation to Ormund, either. He could be a younger brother, or an uncle, really.

I think it has to be Ormund. Ser Bryndon's children seem irrelevant and they probably wouldn't live in the Hightower. Only the main branch would live there.

[Night_is_dark]

I've updated my family tree, incorporating the speculative arrangements suggested by Evrach regarding Aemon and Baelon. If anyone is interested: http://snk.to/f-cdxu0uk7

I don't think Vhagar's color is mentioned. This is the summary of the named dragons we know of, if I'm not missing anything:

• Balerion (Aegon I, Maegor): Black. Died during the Old King's reign.
• Meraxes (Rhaenys): Killed in Dorne.
• Vhagar (Visenya, Aemond): Killed in 130 by Caraxes/Daemon
• Quicksilver (Aenys)
• Dreamfyre (Rhaena, Helaena): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Verminthor (Jaehaerys, Hugh the Hammer): Bronze with tan wings. Killed by Seasmoke and Tessarion.
• Silverwing (Alysanne, Ulf the White)
• Cannibal: Black as coal.
• Sheepstealer (Netty): Mud brown.
• Grey Ghost: Pale grey-white. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Meleys, the Red Queen (Rhaenys): Red, with pink membranes. Killed by Vhagar and Sunfyre.
• Caraxes, the Blood Wyrm (Daemon): Killed by Vhagar.
• Seasmoke (Addam of Hull): Pale grey. Killed by Verminthor.
• Syrax (Rhaenyra): Yellow. Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Sunfyre (Aegon II): Gold with pale pink membranes. Killed from wounds taken from Moondancer.
• Moondancer (Baela): Pale green, with hornd, crest and wingbones of pearl. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Tessarion, the Blue Quen (Daeron): Blue, with dark cobalt wings and with claws, crest and belly bright as beaten cooper. Killed by Verminthor.
• Vermax (Jace): Killed in the Battle of the Gullet.
• Arrax (Luke): Killed by Vhagar.
• Tyraxes (Joffrey): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Stormcloud (Aegon III): Died after rescuing Aegon.
• Morghyl (Jaehaerys): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Shrykos (Jaehaera): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.

We should add to that the green female that Arstan saw at King's Landing, the two hatchlings that were born at Dragonstone and died shortly afterwards, and the one Ran says that we have not heard about.

I find it interesting that the colours of a lot of dragons are not mentioned. However, we know that Balerion and Cannibal were both black and that both of these were particularly fearsome even by dragon "standards". This ties in with Drogon being the most aggressive of Dany's dragons in ASOIAF. I would like to think that perhaps if Drogon is the reincarnation of the Black Dread, that the Cannibal was an earlier version of that spirit re-incarnate.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I wonder about the Hightower family tree:

"Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the hightower ..."

What do you think, does "his sons" in the quote refer to Ormund or Bryndon?

Too bad we're not given any clues to Otto Hightower's relation to Ormund, either. He could be a younger brother, or an uncle, really.

I think it refers to Ormunds children. IIRC the whole point was that Ormunds children were still at the Hightower, and too young to fight anyway, which was why another cousin took the lead of the Hightower army.

[The hairy bear]

I wonder about the Hightower family tree: "Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the hightower ..."

What do you think, does "his sons" in the quote refer to Ormund or Bryndon?

Too bad we're not given any clues to Otto Hightower's relation to Ormund, either. He could be a younger brother, or an uncle, really.

We don't really know, and sometimes Martin uses "cousin" very loosely, but as I see it, Otto/Alycent should be close to the main branch of Hightowers in order to become Hand/queen.

In the footnote regarding the tourney at 111, it says: In the tourney itself, the blacks had much the better of it when Ser Criston Cole, wearing Princess Rhaenyra’s favor, unhorsed all of the queen’s champions, including two of her cousins and her youngest brother, Ser Gwayne Hightower.

I like to think that those two cousins were Ormund and Bryndon. It fits the apparent ages of the characters, but it's just a wild guess.

I find it interesting that the colours of a lot of dragons are not mentioned. However, we know that Balerion and Cannibal were both black and that both of these were particularly fearsome even by dragon "standards". This ties in with Drogon being the most aggressive of Dany's dragons in ASOIAF. I would like to think that perhaps if Drogon is the reincarnation of the Black Dread, that the Cannibal was an earlier version of that spirit re-incarnate.

It seems very likely that the Cannibal is Balerion's son. And probably Drogon also descends from him, so there may be some dragon genetics involved here. :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We don't really know, and sometimes Martin uses "cousin" very loosely, but as I see it, Otto/Alycent should be close to the main branch of Hightowers in order to become Hand/queen.

In the footnote regarding the tourney at 111, it says: In the tourney itself, the blacks had much the better of it when Ser Criston Cole, wearing Princess Rhaenyra’s favor, unhorsed all of the queen’s champions, including two of her cousins and her youngest brother, Ser Gwayne Hightower.

I like to think that those two cousins were Ormund and Bryndon. It fits the apparent ages of the characters, but it's just a wild guess.

It seems very likely that the Cannibal is Balerion's son. And probably Drogon also descends from him, so there may be some dragon genetics involved here. :)

Drogon came from an ancient fossilized egg from Asshai that was 'eons old' according to Illyrio. He is unrelated to any of the other dragons we have met, incl all from PATQ. Which made his birth that much more miraculous.

[Veltigar]

Drogon came from an ancient fossilized egg from Asshai that was 'eons old' according to Illyrio. He is unrelated to any of the other dragons we have met, incl all from PATQ. Which made his birth that much more miraculous.

...Illyrio wouldn't exactly tell the truth if he came by them from the secret Targaryen stash now would he?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

...Illyrio wouldn't exactly tell the truth if he came by them from the secret Targaryen stash now would he?

its possible he was lying, but the eggs were fossilized rocks when Dany got them. Not healthy live eggs.

[RumHam]

its possible he was lying, but the eggs were fossilized rocks when Dany got them. Not healthy live eggs.

There's some debate about this on here. We know from The Mystery Knight that dragon eggs are always really heavy and rock like. It's possible Illyrio just assumed "the ages have turned them to stone."

[Lost Melnibonean]

There's some debate about this on here. We know from The Mystery Knight that dragon eggs are always really heavy and rock like. It's possible Illyrio just assumed "the ages have turned them to stone."

Illyrio is a trader in dragonbone inter alia. So it's quite conceivable that he acquired those eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai ... where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. But The George wrote those early chapters before he fleshed out all the details of the entire tale so he might have changed his mind.

[Lord Varys]

On the Hightower family tree:

My guess is that Ser Otto is the younger brother of Lord Ormund's late father. Otto has already grown-up grandchildren, whereas Lord Ormund apparently has only young sons.

Thus Otto and Alicent are not that far removed from the main Hightower branch.

[Myk Lonmouth]

Who found Dark Sister and where did they put it??! lol

[Ran]

Dark Sister ends up in the hands of Aemon the Dragonknight and then Brynden Rivers, so it must be found before that time.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Dark Sister ends up in the hands of Aemon the Dragonknight and then Brynden Rivers, so it must be found before that time.

Wait, the Dragonknight wielded Dark Sister? It's shaping up to be my favourite sword from the series.

[RumHam]

Wait, the Dragonknight wielded Dark Sister? It's shaping up to be my favourite sword from the series.

Yeah, it's mentioned in passing in The Sword Sword.

[King of Winters]

I don't think Vhagar's color is mentioned. This is the summary of the named dragons we know of, if I'm not missing anything:

• Balerion (Aegon I, Maegor): Black. Died during the Old King's reign.
• Meraxes (Rhaenys): Killed in Dorne.
• Vhagar (Visenya, Aemond): Killed in 130 by Caraxes/Daemon
• Quicksilver (Aenys)
• Dreamfyre (Rhaena, Helaena): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Verminthor (Jaehaerys, Hugh the Hammer): Bronze with tan wings. Killed by Seasmoke and Tessarion.
• Silverwing (Alysanne, Ulf the White)

• Cannibal: Black as coal.

• Sheepstealer (Netty): Mud brown.
• Grey Ghost: Pale grey-white. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Meleys, the Red Queen (Rhaenys): Red, with pink membranes. Killed by Vhagar and Sunfyre.
• Caraxes, the Blood Wyrm (Daemon): Killed by Vhagar.
• Seasmoke (Addam of Hull): Pale grey. Killed by Verminthor.
• Syrax (Rhaenyra): Yellow. Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Sunfyre (Aegon II): Gold with pale pink membranes. Killed from wounds taken from Moondancer.
• Moondancer (Baela): Pale green, with hornd, crest and wingbones of pearl. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Tessarion, the Blue Quen (Daeron): Blue, with dark cobalt wings and with claws, crest and belly bright as beaten cooper. Killed by Verminthor.
• Vermax (Jace): Killed in the Battle of the Gullet.
• Arrax (Luke): Killed by Vhagar.
• Tyraxes (Joffrey): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Stormcloud (Aegon III): Died after rescuing Aegon.
• Morghyl (Jaehaerys): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Shrykos (Jaehaera): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.

I'd really like to know what happened to Sheepstealer and The Cannibal. Wonder what happened to Nettles and Sheepstealer and where they went.

[Lost Melnibonean]

@KingoftheStarks: Maybe she flew with Daemon's natural daughter in her belly to Essos. Maybe her daughter wed the second son (get it?) of the Plumm that was born of the six-foot member (still just a wee thing next to Tormund's mighty member)?

[Grievous]

In the footnote regarding the tourney at 111, it says: In the tourney itself, the blacks had much the better of it when Ser Criston Cole, wearing Princess Rhaenyra’s favor, unhorsed all of the queen’s champions, including two of her cousins and her youngest brother, Ser Gwayne Hightower.

I like to think that those two cousins were Ormund and Bryndon. It fits the apparent ages of the characters, but it's just a wild guess.

I think it's safe to say it isn't Hobert, who is the only other cousin known by name.

Interestingly, Hobert is stated to be around 60 when he died, so while there certainly can be quite wide age difference between cousins, I think that suggests Ormund and Brynden are somewhere around that age. Indeed, Ormund would likely be older, being the eldest son of the eldest line. That would make them around/over 42 during the tournament, which is quite old for the lists (not impossible though).

On the Hightower family tree:

My guess is that Ser Otto is the younger brother of Lord Ormund's late father. Otto has already grown-up grandchildren, whereas Lord Ormund apparently has only young sons.

Thus Otto and Alicent are not that far removed from the main Hightower branch.

That's how I always pictured it, but I started questioning it which is why I brought all this up. Otto would be quite old, but he must be to have served as hand for three kings, so I guess it does work.

My line of thinking about Otto's age goes like this:

Jaeharys died in 103, so Otto must have been Hand before that. That means in 129 he had served at the very least 26 years and he was probably no less than 20 when he became Hand (likely to be much older) so he would be at least 46 years old (ie. born 83 or earlier).

However, King Viserys married Alicent in 106, meaning she was anything from 14-20 at that time, thus she'd be born somewhere from 86 to 92. If Otto was born born 83, he'd gotten Alicent at 9 years old, which is clearly not possible so he will have to be at least 7 years older. That would make him born in 76 at the latest (thus at least 53 at the start of the Dance).

If Ormund really is over 60, Otto would likely have be to that much older again. How old would be too old for what he did in Dance, without his age being mentioned in the story?

Interestingly, Rhaenyra was 14 at the tourney and Alicent would be 19-25 according to the above logic. That actually somehow makes the name "The Princess and the Queen" fit the story very well, but it does also give the whole conflict a nice teen drama vibe.

[History of Westeros]

If Ormund really is over 60, Otto would likely have be to that much older again. How old would be too old for what he did in Dance, without his age being mentioned in the story?

70+ would probably bear mention. There were a number of generals/emperors/kings who went to the battlefield past the age of 80, but you're right that once they get that old, people tend to take note.

But since tPatQ was edited so heavily, his age actually may have been mentioned.

[Myk Lonmouth]

Dark Sister ends up in the hands of Aemon the Dragonknight and then Brynden Rivers, so it must be found before that time.

Yeah, it's mentioned in passing in The Sword Sword.

Ah. I'm ashamed to say I have yet to read the Sworn Sword. But its day is coming. I'm getting those books after I finish the supplementary stories in Dangerous Women.

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

So, I've read a fair portion of this thread, and I've seen a lot of question about Daemon's relationship with Nettles. Now, personally, up until I read this, I didn't even realize there might be a question of whether they were romantically linked. I saw something about maybe he was her father, but I'm not quite sure where that theory came from based on the story. I also think the Old Gods connection was pretty tenuous, but maybe I just missed the really compelling arguments... Having said that, I have a very love/hate relationship with Daemon, because he is such a BAMF, but he made me so angry when he got the letter from Rhaenyra and said something like "a queen's words, a whore's work." I thought, man, that's a really dick thing to say when you're out there screwing around on her, you giant hypocrite. If he wasn't banging Nettles, I suppose I won't be so mad at him for it. So I guess my question is, what do the majority of people think, that he was or wasn't romantically involved with her? And if people think he was her father, where did they get that idea from? I'm sorry, I ramble...