[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[PrimeRhaegar]

It would be interesting to know who Vhagar's rider was before Aemond claimed her. It seems as if Aegon II and Daeron bonded with the dragons that hatched from their eggs, but if we assume that Aemond's egg did not hatch, or that his hatchling died before he could claim him (perhaps he was twisted like Rhaena's, or killed during one of the Cannibal's attacks on the hatcheries on Dragonstone) then his only chance was to try and claim a grown-up dragon later on in life. And I guess Aemond only dared doing that as an 15-year-old or so. He is nineteen in the beginning of the Dance and seems to be in control of Vhagar, so I guess he had some time to bond with her.

If we assume that all of Jaehaerys's children and grandchildren - at least those who became dragonriders - bonded with the dragons who hatched from their eggs - there would have been no possible Targaryen dragon rider to claim Vermithor and Silverwing upon Jaehaerys's and Viserys's death. But for that to make sense, Viserys I and Laena Velaryon must have had their own dragons, too. Which is why I believe that not only Daemon but Viserys and Laena were involved in the war at the Stepstones, too. Laena could have been killed alongside her dragon, whereas Seasmoke apparently survived the death of Laenor. It's stated that Triarchy had faced dragons before, which means that they did not only face Caraxes in battle. But it could also be that Viserys lost his dragon in his youth before he ascended to the Iron Throne, or during the early years of his reign.

I'd also not surprised if Jaehaerys and Alysanne decreed that their dragons be allowed 'to retire' on Dragonstone after their deaths to outlive their natural lifespan without being forced to serve as mounts for ambitious men. That could explain why Rhaenyra only served them back into service when she was in dire need of them...

You know this makes so much sense since i always wondered how strange it is that both daemon and rhaenyra's first spouses died so close for them to be married for a decade. Them dying in battle at the septstones makes absolute sense, especially since the sister's battle tactic against dragons is to aim for the rider.

I truly would like to know more about Vis I seems like a decent guy and all, but why didn't he try to united the factions. Hell why didn't rhaenyra even have Jace married to make more alliances a 15 year old targ prince not married seems weird at this time.

[Lord Varys]

I guess Daemon's war there was fairly recently since it's difficult to imagine that this Triarchy alliance thing did go on for a very long time. In the present, Myr, Tyrosh, and Lys are not exactly the best of friends.

If I had to guess I could imagine that Aegon's Conquest of Westeros and the subsequent rise of new dragonrider dynasty made people in the Free Cities uncomfortable. It could be that the Triarchy formed itself to be able to counter any Targaryen attempt to conquer territories in Essos. It does not seem as if Jaehaerys I was trying to invade Essos, but we don't have a clue about Maegor's foreign policies, or the ambitions of Jaehaerys' children, or Viserys I. Warriors grew restless in long peace periods, so it's entirely likely that the sons and grandsons of Jaehaerys I - as well as young lordlings and knights - tried to win fame and glory by conquering lands in Essos.

And the Dorne's ability to withstand Targaryen conquest throughout the 150 years they had dragons would be really exceptional if they really thwarted all invasion attempts entirely on their own. I very much doubt that they could have pulled that off. People still wonder why the Aegon I did not avenge the deaths of Meraxes/Rhaenys in Dorne. One possibility is that he was there with Balerion, but could not save her, and eventually only retreat home after his armies were defeated. Another possibility is that Dorne formed an alliance with some of the Free Cities who came to Sunspear's aid and launched an invasion of Westeros in retaliation of the Targaryen invasion of Dorne.

As to Jacaerys' bride: I think he was betrothed to Baela Targaryen. Luke was supposed to marry Rhaena, but Daemon's twins were still thirteen in 129 AC. Which means that it would not yet be proper for them to marry if there was no political need. And neither Rhaenyra nor Daemon would have seen any reason to rush things, I guess. In fact, that theory could explain why Baela stayed on Dragonstone when Rhaenyra took the capital. This happened shortly after Jace's death, and Baela may have still been in mourning.

And yes, the fact that the Triarchy sailors know that a dragon ceases to be a threat when it's rider is killed strongly suggests that they knew first hand that this worked. Thus, I think, we can deduce that Laenor was shot down while riding Seasmoke. In Laena's case they may have shot down her as well as her dragon. I believe those deaths are closely linked. Perhaps Laena's dragon was injured during the attacks, spiraling down towards the sea/onto a ship, and Laenor followed his sister on Seasmoke trying to rescue her and was shot...

[PrimeRhaegar]

I so concur with the Dornish having help i don't see how they can resist dragon fire so long and they aren't hidden like bravos. That is an interesting point you bring up since we know that rhaenys ruled with visenya for years, it is strange that she and aegon never razed dorne to the ground, because of her death. Still who is to say they didn't, but i do wonder what they did after her death in dorne. Since they did went and got her Dragon's remains and her body to burn right?

Oh right i did forget that luke was betroth to Rhaena so it does make sense that jace would be the same to her sister. Still kinda of a waste if you ask me i think Jace should have married into another great house, unless they were saving those for aegon III and Visearys when they came of age.

So many Dragons died jesus i wonder who was laena's and Vis I dragons?

[Colonel Green]

It might have something to do with timing. When Jaehaerys died, Alicents children and grandchildren hadn't been born yet. And letting small children try to conquer am extremely large dragon... Seems extremely dangerous to me.

That's where Aemond be an exception. He doesn't seem to fear very much, which might explain how he got to try and win control over huge Vhagar.

It's not just Aemond. Helaena rode Dreamfyre, previously the mount of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sister Rhaena, and you would thus think a pretty big creature as well.

[Grievous]

Hmm, I wonder if the World of Ice and Fire will have details on the conflict in the Stepstones and/or the as of yet unknown dragons. It bugs me that the story in tPaQ was so... abridged.

[Ran]

Yes and yes.

[Lord Varys]

Ran, care to provide any hint on whether Viserys I was even a dragonrider? We would then know that his dragon must have died some time before the Dance...

[Grievous]

Yes and yes.

Wonderful.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes and yes.

:D wonderful news!!

Any idea when pre-ordering will roughly become available? How many months before the publication date, I mean?

[History of Westeros]

You can pre-order now, I certainly have.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Not sure if i should ask in the small questions thread..

I´m sure this has already been talked about here..

How can Eleana be cousin with Alyn Velaryon?

The only way that could be the case would be if Corlys remarried and had a daughter (that would later be the unnamed Aegon´s III Velaryon queen).. And Alyn Velaryon was Laenor Velaryon´s bastard.

That would make Elaena and Alyn cousins.. But wasn´t Laenor gay?

[John Hulboy]

Just finished the patq for 3rd time what a terrible cost to both sides can't wait for the world book.

[Colonel Green]

Not sure if i should ask in the small questions thread..

I´m sure this has already been talked about here..

How can Eleana be cousin with Alyn Velaryon?

The only way that could be the case would be if Corlys remarried and had a daughter (that would later be the unnamed Aegon´s III Velaryon queen).. And Alyn Velaryon was Laenor Velaryon´s bastard.

That would make Elaena and Alyn cousins.. But wasn´t Laenor gay?

There are many degrees of cousin; it was never stated that they were first cousins or anything like that.

Aegon III's Velaryon queen is conspicuously absent in this story, though.

[Arataniello]

Aegon III's Velaryon queen is conspicuously absent in this story, though.

Considering that Aegon III is only a child during the story, this is hardly surprising.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

There are many degrees of cousin; it was never stated that they were first cousins or anything like that.

Aegon III's Velaryon queen is conspicuously absent in this story, though.

yes sure, but being a cousin means sharing a common ancestor two or more generations away

Elaena can´t be a descendant of Alyn and still call him a cousin.

If the Velaryon queen is missing, it could be because she doesn´t exist yet. If Corlys Velaryon remarries, and lives long enough to have a daughter, then that would make sense.

She could be the Velaryon queen, after Haelaena dies, which gives Corlys daughter time to be old enough.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Not sure if i should ask in the small questions thread..

I´m sure this has already been talked about here..

How can Eleana be cousin with Alyn Velaryon?

The only way that could be the case would be if Corlys remarried and had a daughter (that would later be the unnamed Aegon´s III Velaryon queen).. And Alyn Velaryon was Laenor Velaryon´s bastard.

That would make Elaena and Alyn cousins.. But wasn´t Laenor gay?

The first thing you have to realize is that we don't know whose bastards Addam and Alyn were. It is Corlys Velaryon who wants them legitimized, but it is never stated that he is the father.

During tPatQ it becomes obvious that the Targaryens and their people believe that only those with Targaryen blood can ride a dragon. The fact that Addam succeeds in riding a dragon, and nobody seems to think strangely about it, suggests that Addam (and thus also Alyn) have Targaryen blood.

Corlys on the other hand, isn't stated to have Targaryen.blood. He is a Velaryon. But his son by Princess Rhaenys, Laenor, was both a Velaryon and had Targaryen blood. If Corlys believed the two boys were Laenors, they would go down in history as such. Being sons of Laenor would make Alyn a very distant cousin to Elaena, but a cousin nonetheless.

Another hint about Addam and Alyn being Laenors is the dragon Addam manages to ride: Seasmoke, Laenors old dragon.

The quote: "even the boys... We all know what Laenor was" seems to have convinced some readers that Laenor was gay. I tend to look at the quote another way. Laenor, at the moment of the quote, has been dead for about 10 years minimally. Will you fear a dead guy? No.

"even the boys" most likely, IMHO, refers to Laenors three sons, Jace, Luce and Joffrey.

Criston Cole, who is saying the words, is discussing how Rhaenyra and Daemon sleep around. It would make sense that he would next speak about the three eldest sons, who would soon be of an age (or already are) to be sexually active. It would make less sense to say that all the boys at court would be in danger because Laenor, ten years dead, would have been a gay pedophile.

The quote suggests to me that Laenor had been equally sexually active as Rhaenyra and Daemon. So his three sons, his by blood, and raised for the majority of their lives by Daemon, could be even worse than Daemon and Rhaenyra, if you look at their sexual activity.

Edit: as to Aegons Velaryon queen. That was the situation in the first draft or the family tree. GRRM has said who the Queen was (a Velaryon) at one point, but he has also admitted that until the info appears in the book, it is subject to change.

There have been hints provided that Aegon III might not have a Velaryon bride anymore in the current version of the tale. That would make sense, since Corlys, with no descendants left, resorted to legitimizing bastards in order to keep the Driftmark into the hands of his family. Corlys' health has suffered greatly during his captivity, and it's unknown if he even survives the Dance. Him providing a daughter for Aegon III to marry could happen no later than 132, since Corlys is still a captive in late 130, and thus first needs to be freed and remarry. A child of his could be born in 132 at the earliest, making sais child 10 years old at the time Aegon III remarries at the latest, which is 142, since Daeron I was born in 143. At 10 years old, the girl would not be married off to a king who desperately needs heirs.

So another bride for Aegon III after Jaehaera dies seems most likely.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The first thing you have to realize is that we don't know whose bastards Addam and Alyn were. It is Corlys Velaryon who wants them legitimized, but it is never stated that he is the father.

During tPatQ it becomes obvious that the Targaryens and their people believe that only those with Targaryen blood can ride a dragon. The fact that Addam succeeds in riding a dragon, and nobody seems to think strangely about it, suggests that Addam (and thus also Alyn) have Targaryen blood.

Corlys on the other hand, isn't stated to have Targaryen.blood. He is a Velaryon. But his son by Princess Rhaenys, Laenor, was both a Velaryon and had Targaryen blood. If Corlys believed the two boys were Laenors, they would go down in history as such. Being sons of Laenor would make Alyn a very distant cousin to Elaena, but a cousin nonetheless.

Not distant in terms of degrees..Just that their parents were half brother and sister. Laenor was son of Corlys and Rhaenys, and this Velaryon queen could be daughter of Corlys and some new lady velaryon. therefore Alyn and Elaena could be cousins.

Another hint about Addam and Alyn being Laenors is the dragon Addam manages to ride: Seasmoke, Laenors old dragon.

yes, that was my first hint. Also the fact that Corlys asks for the legitimization after the two heirs of Laenor were dead. The last one is of course heir of Rhaenyra.

There have been hints provided that Aegon III might not have a Velaryon bride anymore in the current version of the tale. That would make sense, since Corlys, with no descendants left, resorted to legitimizing bastards in order to keep the Driftmark into the hands of his family. Corlys' health has suffered greatly during his captivity, and it's unknown if he even survives the Dance. Him providing a daughter for Aegon III to marry could happen no later than 132, since Corlys is still a captive in late 130, and thus first needs to be freed and remarry. A child of his could be born in 132 at the earliest, making sais child 10 years old at the time Aegon III remarries at the latest, which is 142, since Daeron I was born in 143. At 10 years old, the girl would not be married off to a king who desperately needs heirs.

So another bride for Aegon III after Jaehaera dies seems most likely.

good point, the timeline is too tight.

But then, the way i see it, Targaryens favor incestuous marriages, to keep the blood "pure". if no targaryen bride is available, they turn to the Velaryons. If no Velaryons are available, then they send Steffon Baratheon across the narrow sea to look for nobles of Valyrian blood. That sounds like the standard modus operandi. Of course, there are examples of Targaryens whom married for love, or for political reasons.

At the end of the Dance of Dragons, we can assume prince Maelor was dead, otherwise Aegon III would have never been heir to Aegon II.

Jaehaera dies withouht providing heirs. We are left only with Baela (wounded at the end of tPatQ) and Rhaena. If Rhaena died, then it makes sense that Aegon III would look for a Velaryon bride, even if she is way too young.

otherwise i don´t see another way for Alyn and Elaena to be cousins, unless we invent some other Velaryon. For instance, brother to Corlys, who has a daugher to be the Velaryon queen.

[The hairy bear]

Didn't Ran told us that the "Velaryon queen" he had initially envisioned had been discarded? If so, it's likely that Alyn and Elaena were supposed to be first cousins, but now this notion has been downgraded to a very distant kind of "cousin" (as in, all Velaryons and Targaryens are some kind of cousins).

yes, that was my first hint. Also the fact that Corlys asks for the legitimization after the two heirs of Laenor were dead. The last one is of course heir of Rhaenyra.

Corlys asks for the legitimization of Addam and Alyn while Jacerys is still alive (in fact, Jace is said to be the one who convinced his mother). So Corlys (and Jace) were, in fact, taking the Driftmark away from Joffrey.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Not distant in terms of degrees..Just that their parents were half brother and sister. Laenor was son of Corlys and Rhaenys, and this Velaryon queen could be daughter of Corlys and some new lady velaryon. therefore Alyn and Elaena could be cousins.

yes, that was my first hint. Also the fact that Corlys asks for the legitimization after the two heirs of Laenor were dead. The last one is of course heir of Rhaenyra.

good point, the timeline is too tight.

But then, the way i see it, Targaryens favor incestuous marriages, to keep the blood "pure". if no targaryen bride is available, they turn to the Velaryons. If no Velaryons are available, then they send Steffon Baratheon across the narrow sea to look for nobles of Valyrian blood. That sounds like the standard modus operandi. Of course, there are examples of Targaryens whom married for love, or for political reasons.

At the end of the Dance of Dragons, we can assume prince Maelor was dead, otherwise Aegon III would have never been heir to Aegon II.

Jaehaera dies withouht providing heirs. We are left only with Baela (wounded at the end of tPatQ) and Rhaena. If Rhaena died, then it makes sense that Aegon III would look for a Velaryon bride, even if she is way too young.

otherwise i don´t see another way for Alyn and Elaena to be cousins, unless we invent some other Velaryon. For instance, brother to Corlys, who has a daugher to be the Velaryon queen.

Baela and Rhaena stand a good chance to survive the Dance. Rhaena especially, since she's safely in the Vale. According to the MUSH 2.0, Rhaena will marry a Corbray from the Vale, but he'll die after a few years. She would be free to marry Aegon III after that. Timewise, it would work.

It would also have the advantage of keeping the Velaryon blood. Even though Rhaena and Baela are Targaryens by name, their mother was a Velaryon. A bride with Velaryon blood (who is already available in the story) would be the next best thing, if compared to a Velaryon bride.

If Corlys had had a brother, who had any children left, Corlys would not have searched for heirs amongst bastards, I guess.

Btw, when Corys petitioned for Addam (and Alyn) to be legitimized, only Luce had already died. Jace was supporting his claim, and Joffrey dies much later. Jace was of course Rhaenyra's heir, and Joffrey would have gotten Dragonstone until Jace had gotten himself an heir.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Didn't Ran told us that the "Velaryon queen" he had initially envisioned had been discarded? If so, the notion that Alyn and Elaena were cousins may have been lost too. Or it could refer to a very disant kind of "cousin" (as in, all Velaryons and Targaryens are some kind of cousins)..

that's the hint I was referring to. It wasn't outright stated, but more hinted at by Ran. IIRC, Elaena and Alyn have been called cousins in the books as well, making it a fact. They could still be distant cousins, through their shared common ancestors Jaehaerys and Alysanne.