[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah that's quite possible. Personally I think Aegon may just have been being prudent in not risking the last two dragons on earth to avenge Rhaeyns. Still the conflict that resulted in the death of Meraxes was a long time ago. We don't get any mention of Dorne in relation to this Stepstones conflict. I think we can at least assume Daemon didn't fight in Dorne or they wouldn't keep referring to his exploits as "in the Stepstones" instead of "in the south" or something.

But Vhagar and Balerion woudn't necessarily have been the last dragons. At the very least, there most likely were eggs already by then.

I find it hard to pin-point a year of death for Rhaenys, with so little information to go with, and thus it is also extremely difficult to guess whether or not there were eggs or hatchlings already.

Rhaenys birthed 3 or 4 children, but without any indication as to when Aenys was born, I don't think we'll learn any of this timing soon. Though the World book will be an option, of course.

That worldbook can't come soon enough.

You've read my mind.. :D

[RumHam]

But Vhagar and Balerion woudn't necessarily have been the last dragons. At the very least, there most likely were eggs already by then.

I find it hard to pin-point a year of death for Rhaenys, with so little information to go with, and thus it is also extremely difficult to guess whether or not there were eggs or hatchlings already.

Rhaenys birthed 3 or 4 children, but without any indication as to when Aenys was born, I don't think we'll learn any of this timing soon. Though the World book will be an option, of course.

Good point, I was assuming Rhaenys would return to Dorne pretty soon after the other kingdoms were subdued. Even if she did it's possible there were eggs or even hatchlings at the time of the conquest.

Edit: but still none of them would compare to the original three as weapons of war.

[Lord Varys]

My take on Rhaenys' death is that she died not shortly after the Conquest but at least as late as half throughout Aegon's reign. If it's the case that Aenys and his siblings were born after the Conquest, then the natural thing would be to consolidate power and family first before any thoughts on the invasion of Dorne could be made. It was Rhaenys who assured the Yellow Toad that they would be back, so guess she was the one who advocated strongly for the future conquest of Dorne, but it's not even confirmed that she was leading the armies there alone, or if the Visenya and Aegon accompanied her.

If the children were already older by then, say, 16-20 (which would put Rhaenys' death around 21-23 AC), then Aenys and his sisters may have even accompanied their parents on dragonback. Considering Aegon's love to Rhaenys it's very unlikely that she went to Dorne alone.

And we don't have to assume that Rhaenys died the first time the Targaryens tried to subdue Dorne after the Conquest. It could be that it was the second or the third time the Targaryens invaded Dorne in force. All we know is that she and Meraxes eventually died there. The fact that the Dornishmen apparently had scorpions ready that could kill a dragon if they got extremely lucky could indicate that they may have had some experience with the Targaryen dragons by this point.

It could be that Triarchy forged itself during the war of independence against Volantis, but the question is: Did they their combined efforts against the Freehold create a strong enough unity to build a common government afterwards? As far as we know Volantis was utterly defeated by their combined efforts, and thus no Free City would actually have to fear a common enemy. Thus it's not impossible that it only formed itself after the Conquest, perhaps only after Jaehaerys ascended to the Iron Throne.

[Ser Lepus]

Yeah that's quite possible. Personally I think Aegon may just have been being prudent in not risking the last two dragons on earth to avenge Rhaeyns. Still the conflict that resulted in the death of Meraxes was a long time ago. We don't get any mention of Dorne in relation to this Stepstones conflict. I think we can at least assume Daemon didn't fight in Dorne or they wouldn't keep referring to his exploits as "in the Stepstones" instead of "in the south" or something.

That worldbook can't come soon enough.

Maybe he didn't have a choice. I bet that when the rest of Westeros heard that the Dornish had not just repelled the Targayren invasion, but also killed a dragon, that inspired many people to revolt everywhere in the Realm..

[Fire Eater]

I sorta forgot about her at that point in the story, they left her in King's Landing? Seems odd I would expect them to kill her or take her along as a hostage.

I agree it would have made more sense to carry Alicent with them in chains to serve as a hostage in case Aegon II or the Hightowers turned up again.

Yes, I immediately thought about that SSM as well! And it's a nice touch that the dwarf is named Mushroom, seeing as Tyrion finds poisonous mushrooms in Pentos.

But IIRC (don't have the book with me), Misery' death had been expected, right? So either they were poisoning him slowly, or he was really ill and they might have "helped" him along.

Viserys was known to take a cup of hippocras every day at the hour of the bat. It would have been easy to take advantage of this habit to poison him slowly over time.

But when they caught the ship with Aegon and Viserys and then fought with the dragons, it is mentioned that they had fought dragons before, so they knew how to defeat them. Not a dragon and not Caraxes specifically. More than one dragon. It isn't likely that Daemon acted all by himself.

I don't think they learned how to defeat dragons as the two dragons they killed: one was very young, a juvenile, and the other was a lucky opportunity with a grappling hook. Even Daemon said, when he came on Caraxes they ran and hid, indicating they didn't have the ability to take on adult or full-grown dragons.

If the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I were indeed more or less peace and plenty in Westeros, it would be very likely that young knights, lords, and dragonriders hungry for glory would turn their eyes to Essos for conquest. I very much doubt the Sea Snake was first and foremost a merchant lord, my guess is that the foundation of his wealth was piracy and conquest in the east...

I myself have considered that the riches he brought back from the east was through piracy as well. In the real world, Lord Richard Salisbury AKA Warwick the Kingmaker launched a successful campaign against pirates while at the same time engaging in piracy. Daemon may have been involved in some piracy as well, with merchant ships coming from the cities of the Triarchy.

Maybe he didn't have a choice. I bet that when the rest of Westeros heard that the Dornish had not just repelled the Targayren invasion, but also killed a dragon, that inspired many people to revolt everywhere in the Realm..

Yes, that possibly could have inspired the Faith's Rebellion when everyone remembered that dragons are still mortal after Meraxes's death, and the Targaryens didn't try to avenge Rhaenys as they had their hands full suppressing rebellions.

[Lord Varys]

There is no indication that Aegon I ever faced any rebellions after the Conquest. In fact, what we know about 'The Sons of the Dragon' and what GRRM said about the aftermath of Aegon's death strongly indicates that the rebellions were caused by the fact that the guy who subdued most of Westeros was dead, and that the Lords did not exactly feel honor-bound to follow his son.

And one can assume that the rebels at first did thing that Aegon's death had neutralized Balerion as a threat. That only changed after Maegor claimed him shortly after his father's funeral.

The fact that Orys Baratheon is Aenys' first Hand also indicates that Aegon did not face any war outside of Dorne. Hands tend to be among the first victims of war, either because they lead the armies in battle or because they are blamed and fired when anything goes wrong.

Thus I'd be very surprised if the failed Conquest of Dorne led to a political revolt in Westeros. Especially since one would have to assume that the Targaryens recruited their armies mostly from the Reach and the Stormlands, making use of the traditional anti-Dornish sentiments there.

And I always argued in favor of a potential Stark wife for Aenys because of the Dornish question. If the Targaryens had made a firm alliance with the Starks, the Lords would think twice before trying to rebel while the Targaryens were away warring in the South...

[CosimaistheHottest]

It wouldn't be surprising if another reason Rhaenys went back to Dorne was because of egging on from Visenya. I read somewhere that they were always competing for Aegons affection. Aegon loved Rhaenys more. Hell, he married her when succession dictated only Visenya. That has to sting for Visenya. Not only that but Visenyas child who was meant to be heir if he hadn't married Rhaenys is now second in line if second. While Visenya is able to subdue the Vale, Rhaenys doesn't. It probably eats at Rhaenys. I could see her being hasty and going back to prove herself.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It wouldn't be surprising if another reason Rhaenys went back to Dorne was because of egging on from Visenya. I read somewhere that they were always competing for Aegons affection. Aegon loved Rhaenys more. Hell, he married her when succession dictated only Visenya. That has to sting for Visenya. Not only that but Visenyas child who was meant to be heir if he hadn't married Rhaenys is now second in line if second. While Visenya is able to subdue the Vale, Rhaenys doesn't. It probably eats at Rhaenys. I could see her being hasty and going back to prove herself.

Heh!

[Kennedy the Keen]

I wish we had more info about Borros and battles the Baratheons were involved in.

Also, what ever happened to Dalton Greyjoy, which side did he take and how did he die? It seemed both the blacks and the greens sent ravens to have his allegiance but he doesn't appear in the rest of the story.

[Kennedy the Keen]

Also what happened to Balerion the Dread, how did he die do we find out? And where did house velaryon even come from, I'm guessing they are descendent from the Andals cause it's not a Firstmen name. They aren't brought up through out the main novels to my recollection. Did something happen to diminish there power. They seem to be as big and noble a house as the baratheons but they seem to have vanished by the time Roberts is king. Was it just the dance of dragons that caused their downfall?

[Colonel Green]

Also what happened to Balerion the Dread, how did he die do we find out? And where did house velaryon even come from, I'm guessing they are descendent from the Andals cause it's not a Firstmen name. They aren't brought up through out the main novels to my recollection. Did something happen to diminish there power. They seem to be as big and noble a house as the baratheons but they seem to have vanished by the time Roberts is king. Was it just the dance of dragons that caused their downfall?

He died during the reign of Jaehaerys I, of old age, apparently.

The Velaryons are a Valyrian house, like the Targaryens. They came over with them before the Doom, and became lords of Driftmark. They're in the novels, in a very minor capacity (they're with Stannis at the Blackwater, and the lord and most of his men get wiped out). They're definitely not anywhere near as powerful as they were during the first two centuries of Targaryen rule, for whatever reason.

[Fire Eater]

Vermithor and Silverwing, the mounts of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, mated like their riders did, so could this have been the case for Balerion and Meraxes with much of the next generations of dragons being the offspring of Meraxes like Syrax and Caraxes?

It wouldn't be surprising if another reason Rhaenys went back to Dorne was because of egging on from Visenya. I read somewhere that they were always competing for Aegons affection. Aegon loved Rhaenys more. Hell, he married her when succession dictated only Visenya. That has to sting for Visenya. Not only that but Visenyas child who was meant to be heir if he hadn't married Rhaenys is now second in line if second. While Visenya is able to subdue the Vale, Rhaenys doesn't. It probably eats at Rhaenys. I could see her being hasty and going back to prove herself.

I felt it was a matter of pride as well for Rhaenys. Even at the beginning of Aegon's Conquest there was strife in House Targaryen, between Rhaenys and Visenya and their progeny for influence.

Also, what ever happened to Dalton Greyjoy, which side did he take and how did he die? It seemed both the blacks and the greens sent ravens to have his allegiance but he doesn't appear in the rest of the story.

Dalton Greyjoy became a cooler at the Double Deuce.

ETA:

Rhaena's egg hatched a broken thing that had died within hours of emerging from the egg.

Did the maesters start poisoning dragon hatchlings this early or earlier?

[Arataniello]

I wish we had more info about Borros and battles the Baratheons were involved in.

Also, what ever happened to Dalton Greyjoy, which side did he take and how did he die? It seemed both the blacks and the greens sent ravens to have his allegiance but he doesn't appear in the rest of the story.

The end of tPatQ leaves the conflict essentially unresolved. Aegon II has the throne, but he doesn't hold it for very long. It's certainly possible that the Great Houses we did not see in the published text are involved in the further stages of the Dance of Dragons.

The text talks about "fresh armies" (ISTR) appearing to continue the conflict.

There should be more information in the World book....?

[Constantinople]

The Velaryons are a Valyrian house, like the Targaryens. They came over with them before the Doom, and became lords of Driftmark. They're in the novels, in a very minor capacity (they're with Stannis at the Blackwater, and the lord and most of his men get wiped out). They're definitely not anywhere near as powerful as they were during the first two centuries of Targaryen rule, for whatever reason.

I think I've read somewhere that the best guess is that Velaryon power was crippled by the destruction of Driftmark's two large and prosperous ports at Spicetown and High Tide. With them went much of the immovable wealth of the House, and much of its prestige.

[Lord Varys]

It's not confirmed that Silverwing and Vermithor ever mated. It's very likely, but not confirmed. They are apparently cousins, which leads me to believe that Silverwing may be a descendant or sibling of Quicksilver, eventually going back to a mating between Balerion and Meraxes. Vermithor may be one of the descendants of Balerion and Vhagar.

On the strife within House Targaryen:

I doubt that Rhaenys had to prove herself to Aegon and/or was very receptive to Visenya's (alleged) mocking of her abilities as a warrior/conqueror. Rhaenys Targaryen was Aegon's true love and queen, he supposedly spent ten nights with Rhaenys for one night with Visenya. As a wife Visenya clearly never was a real rival to Rhaenys. And then it's also confirmed that Rhaenys may have entertained lovers and paramours (which could cast some doubt of the heritage of some of her children, although most likely not Aenys), which in turn suggests that Rhaenys must have been very sure of her hold over her brother. You don't risk losing the affection of your husband in a polygamy...

On crippled dragons:

It has to be confirmed whether crippled dragons like Rhaena's original hatchling were malformed due to outside intervention (i.e. poison). TPatQ strongly implies that all the Targaryen dragons hatched from eggs that were in the care of Targaryen children. A female dragon (Syrax) produced a clutch of eggs, and those eggs were than given to young Targaryens (or not so young Targaryens in Rhaena's case). We know of no natural dragon procreation on Dragonstone. The three wild dragons apparently were all Targaryen dragon hatchlings who were never claimed by a rider (perhaps because the children who were meant to claim them eventually died early, or never dared/were not allowed to become dragonriders - due to some madness, perhaps). Eventually the eggs in the care of these children hatched, and it seems that this process stopped some time after the Dance. Aegon III handed down dragon eggs to his successors who continued to give those eggs to their young children. But they never hatched. This could indicate that the Dance may have destroyed or severely harmed 'the magical connection' the Targaryens had to their dragons and/or their dragon eggs.

I'm not sure if or how the Citadel could have targeted that connection, but I'd not be surprised if they started to take care of the dragons who survived the Dance during the Regency of Aegon III.

On the Velaryons:

The destruction of Spicetown and High Tide certainly was a blow for House Velaryon, but it's star did not exactly set immediately after the Dance. Alyn Velaryon became a very influential figure and an important war hero of his era. His rise must at least have halted the decline of House Velaryon, it may have even reversed it. The Velaryons after the Sea Snake may not have been a great house in their own right, but they were still powerful and closely connected ally of House Targaryen. We don't know anything about the Velaryons during Egg's time, but it may be that they were only cut down to their current size because they decided to back a Blackfyre pretender once...

[Veltigar]

On the Velaryons:

The destruction of Spicetown and High Tide certainly was a blow for House Velaryon, but it's star did not exactly set immediately after the Dance. Alyn Velaryon became a very influential figure and an important war hero of his era. His rise must at least have halted the decline of House Velaryon, it may have even reversed it. The Velaryons after the Sea Snake may not have been a great house in their own right, but they were still powerful and closely connected ally of House Targaryen. We don't know anything about the Velaryons during Egg's time, but it may be that they were only cut down to their current size because they decided to back a Blackfyre pretender once...

I agree Alyn restored the House to great prominence as far as we know. They probably made the mistake of backing a Blackfyre pretender. It makes sense that some Houses with a powerfull Navy like Sunderland and Velaryon backed Daemon and Bittersteel after the fact (his forces needed to set foot on Westerosi shore somehow).

There is also the possibility (though nothing confirmed), that Daemon's wife was the bastard child of Elaene Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon. The timeline just works out (but only just). The Velaryons might have decided to support Daemon's shenaningans in order to put a child with Velaryon blood on the IT.

[Fire Eater]

Does Aegon II have the Triarchy bring Viserys back to KL to be held as a hostage, but dies before Viserys reaches there or do the blacks get Viserys back after Aegon II dies and the war is over?

It's not confirmed that Silverwing and Vermithor ever mated. It's very likely, but not confirmed. They are apparently cousins, which leads me to believe that Silverwing may be a descendant or sibling of Quicksilver, eventually going back to a mating between Balerion and Meraxes. Vermithor may be one of the descendants of Balerion and Vhagar.

Silverwing and Vermithor oft coiled about one another in the fields south of Tumbleton

I think that is the implication

On the strife within House Targaryen:

I doubt that Rhaenys had to prove herself to Aegon and/or was very receptive to Visenya's (alleged) mocking of her abilities as a warrior/conqueror. Rhaenys Targaryen was Aegon's true love and queen, he supposedly spent ten nights with Rhaenys for one night with Visenya. As a wife Visenya clearly never was a real rival to Rhaenys. And then it's also confirmed that Rhaenys may have entertained lovers and paramours (which could cast some doubt of the heritage of some of her children, although most likely not Aenys), which in turn suggests that Rhaenys must have been very sure of her hold over her brother. You don't risk losing the affection of your husband in a polygamy...ed to back a Blackfyre pretender once...

But Visenya was still trying to gain influence against Rhaenysn and she carried considerable weight as she managed to secure the Vale without engaging the Vale host at the Bloody Gates, and win the lords of Crackclaw Point without a fight. It is revealed that Visenya worked to secure the IT for her son Maegor after Rhaenys's son, Aenys, died.

If Rhaenys had the most influence, then Visenya would be working to undermine this influence, given their rivalry.

[Lord Varys]

We don't yet know how Viserys II returned to King's Landing. But my guess is that he did never reach the Triarchy. If that was the case, the powers there would have tried to sell him either to the Greens or the Blacks. And Rhaenyra and her court believe him dead shortly before they flee KL.

That indicates that the ship Viserys was on did sink and he was unaccounted for ever since then. However, it may be that a whole section on Viserys' alleged death was cut out from TPatQ. It may be that a dragonrider saw the ship he was supposed to be in sink, or it may be that that ship was recaptured by the Velaryon fleet and sank afterwards.

My guess is that Viserys may turn up as a sort of Arya-/Bran-version of the Dance, acting as a figurehead for the Blacks in the last period of the war. He may prove his identity with his dragon (egg).

That would be a much better story than him spending time in captivity in Essos.

We don't know how Maegor succeeded Aenys. It could be a coup, it could a partial coup, it could be the execution of Aenys' will.

[History of Westeros]

Oakenfist certainly helped restore House Velaryon, but it's pretty doubtful the acclaim and spoils he claimed from Dorne were enough to replace what was lost... It was a massive loss.

An entire port city was destroyed and they lost centuries if not *thousands* of years of accumulated wealth and perhaps largest of all: their fleet. Oldtown has no large fleet, nor does the Crown. That says a lot about how expensive and valuable such a thing is.

On top of that, Targaryen-Velaryon marriages seemed to have ceased. Sure, they may have lost more power later via backing the wrong side in a Blackfyre rebellion or the like, but I don't see the need to assume such. The events during TPaTQ explain things quite well, in my opinion. They lost a ton of power/wealth and thus their influence waned.

I also agree with the possibility that Visenya and Rhaenys had a bit of a rivalry. There are plenty of reasons for V to hate R. V was the bigger badass yet R got all the attention. What better thing for her to hold over R? If R was at all smug about the fact that Aegon spent more time with her (or that she was prettier/younger, lots of possibilities), then what better thing for V to return fire with? Even better if Meraxes was larger than Vhagar. Yet another thing for Visenya to be jealous over. So why not lord it over R that she failed to conquer Dorne despite her bigger dragon and (maybe) greater support from their mutual husband.

Of course, this is speculation but it's not remotely a stretch since jealousy is a very common human emotion. I don't understand the point regarding Rhaenys risking Aegon's love. If he as smitten as it sounds like he was, she's not risking much at all. Claiming that Aegon might fall out of love with Rhaenys because of sibling rivalry is a big stretch. That's quite simply not how being in love works the vast majority of the time.

Varys, I particularly like some of your thoughts on Dorne being allied with the Triarchy, and the likelihood that the Sea Snake was very hated by them as well. The chance that he and Daemon went to war together is quite high, I think. Laenor was almost certainly involved as well, Laena too.

As to Aenys, I believe a coup (possibly bloodless, as no one was probably in a position to stop Maegor from doing what he wanted) is quite likely, with or without Aenys being assassinated. I doubt Aenys had a will or any special succession plans. He had a son and was relatively young, after all.

[DanaKz]

. According to the MUSH 2.0, Rhaena will marry a Corbray from the Vale, but he'll die after a few years. She would be free to marry Aegon III after that. Timewise, it would work.

Sorry, new girl is confused.

Where do I can to read these MUSH files everybody talking about and what of them are absolutely canon?