[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Baela and Rhaena stand a good chance to survive the Dance. Rhaena especially, since she's safely in the Vale. According to the MUSH 2.0, Rhaena will marry a Corbray from the Vale, but he'll die after a few years. She would be free to marry Aegon III after that. Timewise, it would work.

It would also have the advantage of keeping the Velaryon blood. Even though Rhaena and Baela are Targaryens by name, their mother was a Velaryon. A bride with Velaryon blood (who is already available in the story) would be the next best thing, if compared to a Velaryon bride.

Agreed. Any of them seem like the obvious choice for Aegon III. But, that would make Alyn Velaryon second uncle to Elaena, not cousin.

If Corlys had had a brother, who had any children left, Corlys would not have searched for heirs amongst bastards, I guess

Depends.

Dragonrider grandson (and his brother), or nephew (whom we know nothing of)?

Btw, when Corys petitioned for Addam (and Alyn) to be legitimized, only Luce had already died. Jace was supporting his claim, and Joffrey dies much later. Jace was of course Rhaenyra's heir, and Joffrey would have gotten Dragonstone until Jace had gotten himself an heir.

right. i was mistaken.

[RumHam]

I believe that not only Daemon but Viserys and Laena were involved in the war at the Stepstones, too. Laena could have been killed alongside her dragon, whereas Seasmoke apparently survived the death of Laenor. It's stated that Triarchy had faced dragons before, which means that they did not only face Caraxes in battle.

I think you meant Laenor and Leana? I have it in my head that Daemon was warring in the Stepstones sort of as a free agent. In other words that it was not a war between the Iron Throne and the Three Daughters. Just something he got involved in cause he wanted to. I can't remember a source for that idea so if anyone can provide one I'd be much obliged.

[Anath]

I think you meant Laenor and Leana? I have it in my head that Daemon was warring in the Stepstones sort of as a free agent. In other words that it was not a war between the Iron Throne and the Three Daughters. Just something he got involved in cause he wanted to. I can't remember a source for that idea so if anyone can provide one I'd be much obliged.

But when they caught the ship with Aegon and Viserys and then fought with the dragons, it is mentioned that they had fought dragons before, so they knew how to defeat them. Not a dragon and not Caraxes specifically. More than one dragon. It isn't likely that Daemon acted all by himself.

[RumHam]

But when they caught the ship with Aegon and Viserys and then fought with the dragons, it is mentioned that they had fought dragons before, so they knew how to defeat them. Not a dragon and not Caraxes specifically. More than one dragon. It isn't likely that Daemon acted all by himself.

I know, I just think it's possible that pluralizing dragons was just sort of a liberty taken by the author. Kind of like how Tormond is "husband to bears" when he only claims to have slept with the one. Also Harrenhal "was the seat of kings" but it's clear there would only have been the one. It would be weird for the author to write "the sailors of the Triarchy had faced Caraxes before" because Caraxes wasn't present for the Battle of the Gullet. Not likely, I know.

The other thing is if I'm remembering right and the conflict in the stepstones was not a war between the Iron Throne and the Three Daughters, I wouldn't expect three Targaryen dragonriders to be involved. Daemon sure you can argue he doesn't represent your family or government. Three members of the royal family with dragons would be a little much.

[Arataniello]

Re - the disappearing Velaryon bride of Aegon III.

My thinking is that Aegon III's wife, that previously was called "a Velaryon" will now be revealed to be chosen by Corlys Velaryon - that is, Aegon III's second marriage will be a political one, engineered by Corlys to try to patch up the rifts caused by the Dance (a bride from Aegon II's side of the conflict) or from amongst Rhaenyra's supporters to reward them for their support.

She would now become "the Velaryon choice" of bride for Aegon III, rather than a Velaryon by birth.

[Lord Varys]

On the Velaryon queen thing:

It's very unlikely that a Lord Velaryon - either Alyn or Corlys - will live long enough to father a daughter that is old enough to marry Aegon III to give birth to Daeron I. Thus we should assume for the time being that Aegon's second queen is no longer a Velaryon. That, or a disguised Velaryon if his second queen ends up being Rhaena (she would be half-Velaryon through Laena). That could work since it's very likely that her Corbray match - if the MUSH is correct on that - is a love or political match that evolved during the Dance.

If Alyn and Addam were Corlys/Laenor/Laena's secret children then they would be closely related to Aegon's children by Rhaena, but not exactly be first cousins. But then, this cousin thing comes as of yet solely from the Elaena description to Amok. There is no line in the books confirming that I remember. Elaena Targaryen has yet to be mentioned by name, I think (Rennifer Longwaters and Brown Ben Plumm refer to her, but not by name).

On the war in the Stepstones:

I did mean Viserys and Laena. Laena and her dragon - if she had one, as we seem to assume - are dead, and Viserys lost his dragon - if he was a dragonrider - before his death. And Laenor most certainly fought there with Daemon since he must be the dragonrider the sailors of the Triarchy successfully shot down.

My impression is that the Three Daughters must have been at war with the Iron Throne at one point. Perhaps the Stepstones campaign was sort of a lonely operation by Daemon, but this does not mean that the Iron Throne did not fight the Three Daughters at some point in the past. There is no textual evidence to confirm that Daemon was 'on his own' during that campaign; all I get from it is that he really proved himself as a warrior at the Stepstones (just as Blackfish Tully did during the War of the Ninepenny Kings). But this doesn't mean that it was not an official war. I'd be very surprised and irritated if a coalition of three Free City would not consider any attack on their forced conducted by a Targaryen prince and dragonrider not a declaration of war by the Iron Throne of Westeros. Either the king is incapable of controlling his brother, or he is a coward...

The fact that Daemon was an adventurer does not mean that he conducted unofficial wars. He most likely traveled the world a lot, had friends in Pentos, and perhaps even farther in the east.

[RumHam]

On the war in the Stepstones:

I did mean Viserys and Laena. Laena and her dragon - if she had one, as we seem to assume - are dead, and Viserys lost his dragon - if he was a dragonrider - before his death. And Laenor most certainly fought there with Daemon since he must be the dragonrider the sailors of the Triarchy successfully shot down.

My impression is that the Three Daughters must have been at war with the Iron Throne at one point. Perhaps the Stepstones campaign was sort of a lonely operation by Daemon, but this does not mean that the Iron Throne did not fight the Three Daughters at some point in the past. There is no textual evidence to confirm that Daemon was 'on his own' during that campaign; all I get from it is that he really proved himself as a warrior at the Stepstones (just as Blackfish Tully did during the War of the Ninepenny Kings). But this doesn't mean that it was not an official war. I'd be very surprised and irritated if a coalition of three Free City would not consider any attack on their forced conducted by a Targaryen prince and dragonrider not a declaration of war by the Iron Throne of Westeros. Either the king is incapable of controlling his brother, or he is a coward...

The fact that Daemon was an adventurer does not mean that he conducted unofficial wars. He most likely traveled the world a lot, had friends in Pentos, and perhaps even farther in the east.

You're probably right, I'm not sure why I thought it was a case of Deamon getting involved in a foreign war or two.

[The hairy bear]

The prince [Daemon] had made more foes than friends during the course of his adventures. Ser Otto Hightower, who had been amongst the first of those foes, was reaching across the Narrow Sea to another of the prince's enemies, the Kingdom of the Three Daughters.

I think that's the quote that can suggest that the war against the Thriarchy was a personal matter of Daemon. It's far from definitive, but it would be a little weird calling "adventures" an official war. Also, if Daemon was only commanding the troops of the Iron Throne, perhaps the matter wouldn't be as personal as the previous quote suggests.

[Kennedy the Keen]

I LOVED THIS!

I though it was an epic story. I am gonna start a re read tomorrow, I know I missed a bunch of stuff. Although they mention a lot of the foreshadowing at the end.

I always wondered what happened to the last of the dragons. I thought this was an awesome way to explain the story. I know I have a very biased opinion because I think anything aSoFaI is godly, ha! Can't wait to read it again!

I wish George would but out more stuff like this, I love the lore and history of anything Westeros. I'm super excited for the "she-wolves" novella!

I am new to these forums, and I can't stop scouring aSoFaI threads for theories and concepts and predictions and ideas. I didn't realize how deep the history and backstory really is. Now I can't get enough of it.

[Kennedy the Keen]

There's a lot more about the various battles between the westermen and the riverlords in the source material, and in the world book, then what was left in TPatQ since the story was so generally focused down.

Hey, I'm new to the forums and stuff like this in general, I had a question you should be able to answer for me. I just finished tPatQ and I really enjoyed it. I would love to read up on it some more, or even any history involving aSoFaI's world. In the quote above you state "source material", can I access source material and read it? If so, how?

Thanks :)

[RumHam]

Hey, I'm new to the forums and stuff like this in general, I had a question you should be able to answer for me. I just finished tPatQ and I really enjoyed it. I would love to read up on it some more, or even any history involving aSoFaI's world. In the quote above you state "source material", can I access source material and read it? If so, how?

Thanks :)

The source material Ran refers tp won't be released until after the series is done. Basically Martin wrote a lot of history/worldbuilding material that is the source for The Princess and The Queen and the upcoming book The World of Ice and Fire. The World of Ice and Fire will hopefully come out this year, but Martin and Ran have made it clear that we won't see the source material (aka the Grrmarillion) until after he's done with the main series and probably the Dunk and Egg tales.

Edit: I should add that Martin has done readings from this material. There's an interesting account of Aegon's Conquest here, and a report of a reading about Aegon's sons Aenys and Maegor here.

[jobmartell]

92 pages and counting on a novella! This site will explode when the 'winds' hit!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Agreed. Any of them seem like the obvious choice for Aegon III. But, that would make Alyn Velaryon second uncle to Elaena, not cousin.

Depends.

Dragonrider grandson (and his brother), or nephew (whom we know nothing of)?

right. i was mistaken.

It would make Alyn Elaena's cousin in the same sort of way that Bloodraven is Egg's cousin. :)

Should Corlys have had to choose between Addam/Alyn and the trueborn son of his brother (or between Addam/Alyn and his brother), Corlys would have had to go with his trueborn brother./nephew. Addam/Alyn's claim would not have been secure otherwise.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I can imagine that Three Sisters may have grown to hate Daemon if he had the supreme command over the Westerosi troops defeating them. It could be that there was an official war not between the Iron Throne and the Three Sisters, but between Pentos and the Triarchy, and Pentos won because it was aided by Daemon and dragon(s)...

Laena could have died during one of those adventures, but would Laenor have accompanied Daemon in that case? I don't know. And we still don't know yet when and how the dragon of Viserys I died. It would be very strange if he never was a dragonrider. Surely the dragon thing would have become important during the Great Council in 101 AC - a claimant without a dragon would surely have secured less support than a dragonrider claimant. Viserys could only have lost his dragon if he had a claimed one and it died afterwards. If his hatchling died before he could claim it, he could have claimed another dragon (either another hatchling or one of the riderless dragons). We don't yet know when Queen Alysanne died, nor do we know how long Vhagar and Dreamfyre have been without riders before Aemond and Helaena claimed them.

It's difficult to imagine that Viserys lost his dragon in an accident, and it's very unlikely that he was one of the hatchlings killed by the Cannibal since young Viserys most certainly did not spent his youth on Dragonstone. He was not the son of the Prince of Dragonstone, after all...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do we have any indication as to when Daemon fought on the Stepstones? No, right?

[Lord Varys]

Not that I know of, but my guess is that this was in the not-so-far-past since the Three Daughters seem to hold some very severe grudges against Daemon. The fact that they wage an all-out attack on Rhaenyra strongly suggests that in all three cities of the Triarchy are still people in charge who hate and loath Prince Daemon. On the other hand, if Daemon attacked one or two of their cities the whole populations of this city may be hungry for revenge... The fact that the Three Daughters were a Triarchy may indicate that they every member city elected a Triarch who then ruled over the whole 'Kingdom' with his two colleagues.

[RumHam]

One other thing occurred to me, why would the Iron Throne be fighting a war for control of the Stepstones when they don't even have Dorne yet?

[Lord Varys]

I tried to answer that a few pages earlier:

Imagine that Dorne once fought against the Iron Throne with assistance from the Free Cities. The Triarchy of the Three Daughters could have formed itself in response to the rise of the dragonrider dynasty of Westeros (i.e. after Aegon conquered Westeros and his three dragons started multiplying).

This could be an explanation why Aegon was unable to punish Sunspear/Dorne severely after the death of Rhaenys/Meraxes. It's easily imaginable that Rhaenys led and invasion army to Dorne, and (some of) the Free Cities answered that attack with an invasion of the Stormlands/the Vale, Dragonstone/Driftmark, or an attack on King's Landing itself. Thus the Iron Throne would not have the strength to sent another army to Dorne after Rhaenys was defeated (another option is that Aegon/Balerion accompanied Rhaenys to Dorne but their combined forces were defeated - Balerion alone could not possibly conquer Dorne). It's very likely that the Martells forged a strong bond with Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr when they were forced to stand against the kingdoms under the control of the Targaryens.

It's even possible that the Braavosi once warred with the Iron Throne. They don't like dragons all that much...

Anyway, my best guess is that the Three Daughters formed themselves in answer to the rise of the Targaryens. The Volantenes no longer were a threat, and Pentos is a long distance away, so the dragonrider thing may be the best explanation for this development... And then it would also be no surprise that it did not really survive the Dance, either. The loss of so many ships may have been one reason why they started to tear themselves apart, another reason could be the fact that they eventually realized that the Targaryens were no longer as much a threat as they were before.

If the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I were indeed more or less peace and plenty in Westeros, it would be very likely that young knights, lords, and dragonriders hungry for glory would turn their eyes to Essos for conquest. I very much doubt the Sea Snake was first and foremost a merchant lord, my guess is that the foundation of his wealth was piracy and conquest in the east...

[RumHam]

Yeah that's quite possible. Personally I think Aegon may just have been being prudent in not risking the last two dragons on earth to avenge Rhaeyns. Still the conflict that resulted in the death of Meraxes was a long time ago. We don't get any mention of Dorne in relation to this Stepstones conflict. I think we can at least assume Daemon didn't fight in Dorne or they wouldn't keep referring to his exploits as "in the Stepstones" instead of "in the south" or something.

That worldbook can't come soon enough.

[Grievous]

I like that, but I'd add the alternative that the Triarchy formed in response to Volantese aggression and their attempts to take over the Free Cities. I think that seems as if not more likely. That's not to say they could not have also served a purpose vs. Westeros like you describe later on.

Regardless, control of the Stepstones is naturally important to the Triarchy, but it is also very important for Dorne and the Targaryens both. Blocking a naval invasion along the Narrow Sea is probably one key to Dorne's successful defense as well. I can definitely see fights over control of this key area being a major strategic concern at the time.