Reasons why Jon would be a good king.

[Northbound]

. Not punishing Jon after he tried to murder a superior officer (thorne)

But Thorne is such an ass hat!! Exceptions, must be made!! :cool4:

[aceluby]

Jeor was a fool, his expedition North with nearly all rangers was just an idiotic idea which predictably ended in a disaster. Not punishing Jon after he tried to murder a superior officer (thorne) is an another proof he was pretty terrible at his job.

There isn't a single example of any leader who has not made some mistakes along the way. Using this logic everybody is pretty terrible at their job.

[SkaggCannibal]

Really? Because as far as I know Jeyne got Robb killed and Ned's naivete.

Yes Jeyne, the hero can't just take a girl's virginity and leave, the hero marries her. A hero always saves the little children, so Ned tried to save the Lannister-children. You see, typical hero-behavior and what them got killed.

[David Selig]

There isn't a single example of any leader who has not made some mistakes along the way. Using this logic everybody is pretty terrible at their job.

We are not talking about some small mistakes. Jeor caused an utter disaster for the Watch and put it on the brink of extinction. And he let a murder attempt on a surerior officer go completely unpunished, which is inviting disaster in any military organisation, but even more so in one where the majority of the members are convicted criminals who are forced to be there.

Come to think of it, it's kind of poetic justice what happened both to him and Jon after Jeor let Jon unpunished for his murder attempt on a superior officer of the Watch.

[Addam of Hull]

We are not talking about some small mistakes. Jeor caused an utter disaster for the Watch and put it on the brink of extinction. And he let a murder attempt on a surerior officer go completely unpunished, which is inviting disaster in any military organisation, but even more so in one where the majority of the members are convicted criminals who are forced to be there.

Come to think of it, it's kind of poetic justice what happened both to him and Jon after Jeor let Jon unpunished for his murder attempt on a superior officer of the Watch.

I, personally, can't wait for Alliser Thorne's poetic justice, then. He was derelict in his duty to properly train recruits and likely got a number of them killed because they weren't as prepared as they should have been. His comeuppance should be sweet.

[David Selig]

I, personally, can't wait for Alliser Thorne's poetic justice, then. He was derelict in his duty to properly train recruits and likely got a number of them killed because they weren't as prepared as they should have been. His comeuppance should be sweet.

Hey, not his fault he had to train losers lacking in brains. :cool4:

[Addam of Hull]

Hey, not his fault he had to train losers lacking in brains. :cool4:

A good man like Thorne can never be at fault. He's as pure as untouched snow.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

And I'm saying that Plato wrote about the qualities of a leader he wished in his own society, time and reality. Westeros is a very different society than Ancient Greece, Westeros is based on the Middle Ages, not the Classical, and Westeros is a fictional universe, separate from our own. Plato's writings do not apply. Unless you wish to explain why they would.

I'm confused why they would not apply? Just because something is in a fictional universe doesn't mean principles of the real universe do not. The people in Westeros are still people and have all of the same characteristics of people.

Methinks the burden is on you to explain exactly how a real world philosopher's musings about his own society apply to Westeros.

Plato's writings do not apply. Unless you wish to explain why they would.

You're dismissing his work and saying the "burden" to state why it must still apply is on him/her? Well, That Makes Sense.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

A good man like Thorne can never be at fault. He's as pure as untouched snow.

Snow isn't quite untouched anymore, thanks to Ygritte, maybe that's not the best way to put it ;)

[Addam of Hull]

Snow isn't quite untouched anymore, thanks to Ygritte, maybe that's not the best way to put it ;)

;) Oh, I know.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

;) Oh, I know.

OH! Another of Jon's qualifications is he has got a "silver tongue" so to speak. ;) :p

[Fat King Robert]

We are not talking about some small mistakes. Jeor caused an utter disaster for the Watch and put it on the brink of extinction. And he let a murder attempt on a surerior officer go completely unpunished, which is inviting disaster in any military organisation, but even more so in one where the majority of the members are convicted criminals who are forced to be there.

Come to think of it, it's kind of poetic justice what happened both to him and Jon after Jeor let Jon unpunished for his murder attempt on a superior officer of the Watch.

Well, Jon never got his sentence. He saved the Lord Commanders life if you remember? It'd be a poor way of repaying this debt. Jeor also states that if he had "....killed every boy who went to Mole's town, only ghost would be guarding the wall." or something like that. On top of that, I think Jeor knew Thorne was quite the prick to everyone and everything.

[Fat Mac]

Concerning Thorne, I think a man of his harshness is needed for the job. Look at the crop he's given. Murderers, rapists, thieves. He has to turn them in to soldiers. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but a man like him is needed for the NW.

Concerning Jon, I don't think he can lead a Kingdom, at least not the Seven Kingdoms. He knows too little of the lords, the customs, the intrigues and backstabbing (heh). He could probably adapt, but as the series have shown, northerners tend to melt down south, and I don't think Jon would be an exception.

Some of his qualities are what one might want in a King, but not necessarily what would be good for a King.

[aceluby]

We are not talking about some small mistakes. Jeor caused an utter disaster for the Watch and put it on the brink of extinction. And he let a murder attempt on a surerior officer go completely unpunished, which is inviting disaster in any military organisation, but even more so in one where the majority of the members are convicted criminals who are forced to be there.

Come to think of it, it's kind of poetic justice what happened both to him and Jon after Jeor let Jon unpunished for his murder attempt on a superior officer of the Watch.

Actually, yes, that is a small mistake, if you can call it that. Jon was awaiting punishment for that 'crime' when he saved Jeor's life. In fact, had he sentenced Jon to death on the spot like you seem to want, Jeor would have died that night along with him. If that's the worst thing he did in his life, he lived like a saint.

[Addam of Hull]

Concerning Thorne, I think a man of his harshness is needed for the job. Look at the crop he's given. Murderers, rapists, thieves. He has to turn them in to soldiers. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but a man like him is needed for the NW.

Concerning Jon, I don't think he can lead a Kingdom, at least not the Seven Kingdoms. He knows too little of the lords, the customs, the intrigues and backstabbing (heh). He could probably adapt, but as the series have shown, northerners tend to melt down south, and I don't think Jon would be an exception.

Some of his qualities are what one might want in a King, but not necessarily what would be good for a King.

I don't necessarily disagree that a harsher man, like Thorne, would be good as a Master-at-Arms for Castle Black, but it's still noted in AGOT that Thorne hadn't taught Pyp how to properly hold a sword. That should be one of the first things they learn and, if Pyp hasn't been taught that, then it calls in to question Thorne's competence. For what it's worth, I think Thorne would be better suited for a different position.

[The Wolves]

I don't necessarily disagree that a harsher man, like Thorne, would be good as a Master-at-Arms for Castle Black, but it's still noted in AGOT that Thorne hadn't taught Pyp how to properly hold a sword. That should be one of the first things they learn and, if Pyp hasn't been taught that, then it calls in to question Thorne's competence. For what it's worth, I think Thorne would be better suited for a different position.

Question: was the guy Leathers?(name/spelling)who Jon replaced him with any better at training? I know Jon said he was hard but I don't think there was anything saying that he was good with training the recruits

[Addam of Hull]

Question: was the guy Leathers?(name/spelling)who Jon replaced him with any better at training? I know Jon said he was hard but I don't think there was anything saying that he was good with training the recruits

Well, Ser Alliser is replaced before that by Ser Endrew of Tarth when Mormont sends Ser Alliser to King's Landing. Endrew is in turn slayed at the Battle of the Bridge of Skulls and replaced by Iron Emmett who's eventually given command of Long Barrow. And then Leathers is made Master-at-Arms after him. As to whether any of them were better, we're never told either way, iirc. It's difficult to say. I'd probably wager yes, but they may not be.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

The thing about Thorne is that he was a shitty Master at Arms. He never cared whether try learned or not and the NW suffered because of it. Ha he put forth more effort the NWmen would have some decent men.

[El Guapo]

It is hard to train recruits when a snot nosed little bastard threatens to sick his special little wolf on you if youn dare harm a hair on one of the worst recruits in NW history. Come to think of it why the hell was John allowed to keep a pet anyway?

[Addam of Hull]

It is hard to train recruits when a snot nosed little bastard threatens to sick his special little wolf on you if youn dare harm a hair on one of the worst recruits in NW history. Come to think of it why the hell was John allowed to keep a pet anyway?

Jon threatens Rast, not Alliser. And that doesn't really justify his failure to instruct Pyp who was there before Samwell shows up. As to the why, who knows? The Night's Watch keeps dogs, though, and it's possible that Mormont believed that Ghost would be helpful. Qhorin certainly thought so. And Ghost did end up saving Mormont's life, so it would appear to have been the right call.