Sansa's Savage Giant: Right Under Our Noses the Entire Time?

[Sansa_Stark]

What always goes on in every Sansa topic.....

:bang:

y

why does it always have to be sansa

[yolkboy]

Well done Butterbumps. I am leaning towards LF as the savage giant myself for some of the reasons other people have said, and in particular I do believe he is a very savage man, but also because of his hidden sigil as the Titan of Braavos.

Yes, the fact that he even has this other sigil is highly suspicious to me. It is a hidden sigil, and I wonder what purpose it's existence has, if not to denote LF as a giant in a pertinent way.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yes, the fact that he even has this other sigil is highly suspicious to me. It is a hidden sigil, and I wonder what purpose it's existence has, if not to denote LF as a giant in a pertinent way.

It not only denotes LF as a giant but the fact that it is hidden is representative of LF's whole modus operandi of "clean hands". No one knows it's him behind pretty much everything that's happened, and in particualr to the things that have happened to the Starks.

[butterbumps!]

Well done Butterbumps. I am leaning towards LF as the savage giant myself for some of the reasons other people have said, and in particular I do believe he is a very savage man, but also because of his hidden sigil as the Titan of Braavos. The sigil has been used significantly in the Ghost of High Heart's prophesy as has been pointed out above. Also, here's another bit of evidence linking LF to the Titan. In the chapter where Sansa is building Snow Winterfell and LF helps her, at one point he "steps over the walls" of Winterfell. Then, in Arya's chapter when she arrives in Braavos, which happens at almost the exact same time as the snow Winterfell chapter, Arya looks at the Titan of Braavos and thinks how huge it is and how it could step right over the walls of Winterfell.

{edited to fix the quotes which don't seem to be working right now (for me anyway)}

Yea, the parallel Titan chapters are a good catch. I tend to think LF looks good for this, both symbolically and plot-wise. I cautiously posit the the victim as LF and the location as Winterfell. I'm undecided about the manner of death, but there's a good number of interesting ways one could die there I'm sure.

Plot-wise, we know LF is trying to edge into Winterfell through Sansa-- he's playing his little game of chaos to some unspecified end, but the pattern of his actual power grabs involves usurping specific Houses who he believes have wronged him: he's in control of the Riverlands and overlord of Riverrun, he currently holds the Eyrie through the Arryn heir, and he tells us he has designs on Winterfell and holds a Stark heir. I think it's fairly clear that Winterfell is the next step. I'm having trouble visualizing how the plot would have to move in order to get them inside Winterfell physically (so I admit that I have no solid idea how this will work), but I do feel confident that this is going to be LF's next acquisition. So it would align LF and Winterfell in a pretty straightforward manner.

At any rate, I think the prophesy and the doll are a case of multiplied foreshadowing-- there's the prophesy, and then the Snow Castle scene, which fulfills the wording of prophesy, but also reinforces and posits further foreshadowing in the same vein.

[aceluby]

What is so literal about the doll being the giant that she slays? Wouldn't a 'literal' vision describing this say she would slay a doll and not a giant? Also, doesn't Lysa die in that chapter? Seems that if we're going to do analysis of this we should include both of those, especially since the second vision didn't say anything about a death, only a hairnet which later led to a death... kind of like a fight w/ a giant that later led to a death...

It could be foreshadowing as well, I just think it gets into the crackpot zone pretty quickly as it's mostly conjecture on possible plot twists that haven't happened.

[Iona]

I don't say that I needed convincing, but after that very clear and concise post by butterbumbs! going through all the HH prophecies I'm thoroughly in awe. Always felt like the doll thing was a bit of a let-down (a prophetic one, otherwise a very nice moment for Sansa and made me grin) after all those other major events unfolding.

This has been an interesting and mostly courteous discussion so far, so I want to see all of you people behave. I have my hands full already with trying to stop people poking other posters instead of the subject matter in the Stannis threads. And E-Ro, don't think I didn't see you use the f-word in this thread too. You're not hanging out with peterbound anymore, is that clear?

[Annara Snow]

Regarding Sansa as a non-violent person: while I don't think the word "slay" has to literally mean killing someone with a sharp weapon, I don't agree that Sansa could never be driven to kill or hurt someone physically. The beauty of the characters in ASOIAF is that they're not one-dimensional - at least not most of them. Arya is not always impulsive and angry, and she's learned how to use her brain instead of her sword (and it's served her better); Sansa is not always non-aggressive. Even most non-violent people have their breaking point. I've already mentioned the moment when Sansa was overcome with hatred and wanted to push Joffrey of the tower, even though it would've meant her certain death. The scene with the Snow castle was another moment when Sansa was overcome with anger - "a mad rage seized hold of her" We see some of the suppressed anger in a verbal form when she tells LF "Then give Lord Frey Harenthal".

She's not an aggressive person, but like everyone, she feels anger - how could she not have it, after all she's been through - and she's used to suppressing it, because she's a lady with a courtesy as an armor, and because it was necessary to survive - and it's become he second nature. (I believe that one of the reasons she's drawn to Sandor is because he doesn't care about courtesy or lying or niceties, and always openly showing rage, something she's not free to do.) Instead, she channels it into passive aggression. But it's worth noting that every one of the rare aggressive outbursts she's had was connected to someone hurting her family, or, in the case of the Snow castle, something that symbolically stood for her family. It's certainly worth thinking about what would happen if she learned about LF's involvement in her father's death.

[butterbumps!]

Also, doesn't Lysa die in that chapter? Seems that if we're going to do analysis of this we should include both of those, especially since the second vision didn't say anything about a death, only a hairnet which later led to a death... kind of like a fight w/ a giant that later led to a death...

I'm not sure I follow. If you look at the previous examples of prophesy, the murders themselves are the momentous events-- it's the shadow killing Renly, not Stannis having sex with Mel that precipitates the death that's depicted. The doll-slaying is rather isolated from Lysa's murder-- it would be playing a little fast and loose to put Lysa's death within the object of this prophesy.

None of those prophesies give us all the facts of the murder in question: the killer, victim, mode of death, and location. One or more pieces of those murders is missing from all of them. The only one that proffers a description for everything is Sansa's last one, which fits utterly perfectly with the doll, right?

But I think the "twist" going on is that it's not truly fulfilled-- that is, the Snow Castle scene is obviously and clearly connected to the prophesy, but it's not fulfilling the forecast but multiplying it, perhaps even making it more specific (naming the snow castle as Winterfell, for example).

It could be foreshadowing as well, I just think it gets into the crackpot zone pretty quickly as it's mostly conjecture on possible plot twists that haven't happened.

I'm not sure what's crackpot about this. Sansa's Snow Castle scene involves Sansa claiming Winterfell, an attack on Winterfell by a giant, and Sansa defeating the giant to save Winterfell. I don't think there's anything crackpot about the notion that Sansa will defend Winterfell against someone associated with a giant-- as it stands, 2 men associated with giants have a claim to this castle through Sansa. I though it was fairly straight-forward foreshadowing, or at the very least, symbolism.

[jet199]

Could the serpents in Sansa's head-dress hint at Oberyn being involved in Joffery's murder. Eye for an eye, heir for an heir.

I think all of the candidates for the giant are good possibilities, even the Umbers as they are currently playing both sides up at Winterfell and could well try to take power later on.

I did think it had to be LF but now I am moving towards Tyrion as he has a claim on Winterfell while LF doesn't care about it.

[aceluby]

I'm not sure I follow. If you look at the previous examples of prophesy, the murders themselves are the momentous events-- it's the shadow killing Renly, not Stannis having sex with Mel that precipitates the death that's depicted. The doll-slaying is rather isolated from Lysa's murder-- it would be playing a little fast and loose to put Lysa's death within the object of this prophesy.

None of those prophesies give us all the facts of the murder in question: the killer, victim, mode of death, and location. One or more pieces of those murders is missing from all of them. The only one that proffers a description for everything is Sansa's last one, which fits utterly perfectly with the doll, right?

But I think the "twist" going on is that it's not truly fulfilled-- that is, the Snow Castle scene is obviously and clearly connected to the prophesy, but it's not fulfilling the forecast but multiplying it, perhaps even making it more specific (naming the snow castle as Winterfell, for example).

I'm not sure what's crackpot about this. Sansa's Snow Castle scene involves Sansa claiming Winterfell, an attack on Winterfell by a giant, and Sansa defeating the giant to save Winterfell. I don't think there's anything crackpot about the notion that Sansa will defend Winterfell against someone associated with a giant-- as it stands, 2 men associated with giants have a claim to this castle through Sansa. I though it was fairly straight-forward foreshadowing, or at the very least, symbolism.

Sansa having poison in her hair does not describe an event, just her hairnet. And the savage slaying of the giant is not exactly what happens, since it's not an acutal giant, but a doll. Both of these had big events later that were not described in the vision. Nothing about anybody dying in either.

I just think it's crackpot because it's been so left open that the giant could be LF, Tyrion, an Umber, an actual giant, or any number of things, and the castle could be WF, a NW castle, the Eerie... What is it foreshadowing, really? That Sansa might have to defend one of these places (or somewhere else it's snowing) from one of these men (or someone else who is small, big, from Braavos...)? It seems vague and could fit too many scenarios for it to be actual foreshadowing of an event 2,000+ pages into the future.

[Ice Turtle]

Good theory OP, but I still think that it's UnGregor mainly because of Bran's vision. For example RW was foretold by at least four prophecies (Mel, Patchface, HotU, Ghost of the HH, probably Thoros and even Rickon might have seen something).

As for slaying, I'm not a native English speaker,but "slaying" seems as good word to use instead of killing when you are dealing with people who have already been killed.

As for Sansa not being prone to violence, that is mostly true but IMO she has some unfinished business about being thrown and throwing herself and other people from towers, battlements,Moon door and other high places.

[butterbumps!]

Sansa having poison in her hair does not describe an event, just her hairnet. And the savage slaying of the giant is not exactly what happens, since it's not an acutal giant, but a doll. Both of these had big events later that were not described in the vision. Nothing about anybody dying in either.

I did a bad job articulating what I meant, so let me try to clarify.

Every single one of the visions pertains to a murder/ death. The visions themselves depict people, locations, weapons and/or descriptions of the event at the momentous death itself. Meaning, the hairnet doesn't mention a victim, but the weapon was there at the event of the death. Balon is not mentioned, but his killer and manner of death are directly stated in the vision.

What's common to all is that there is a literal death involved, and the vision pertains to some party or object used and present in the murder itself.

So, for example, the snow castle nor the giant have anything to do with Lysa's death the way the Faceless Man, the shadow or the hairnet did with their respective deaths. The visions don't reflect something that then caused something important to happen-- they pertain to important murders in real time.

I just think it's crackpot because it's been so left open that the giant could be LF, Tyrion, an Umber, an actual giant, or any number of things, and the castle could be WF, a NW castle, the Eerie... What is it foreshadowing, really? That Sansa might have to defend one of these places (or somewhere else it's snowing) from one of these men (or someone else who is small, big, from Braavos...)? It seems vague and could fit too many scenarios for it to be actual foreshadowing of an event 2,000+ pages into the future.

I still don't follow. Are you saying it's crackpot because there's no way to hammer down exactly which scenario this will turn out to be? Because, I mean, yea, it's super open ended and there are a ton of possibilities. That doesn't make it crackpot, it just means there's multiple possibilities. When I brought up all those other variables I was speaking to why I don't think this is an "open and shut case" wrt the doll-- there's other players and places of greater importance that seem to be converging in the future.

But at it's most basic meaning, both the prophesy and what happens in the Snow Castle chapter present a pretty straight-forward scenario that seems to follow what the plot's already set up: the idea that Sansa defeats someone associated with a giant in a castle associated with snow. Both LF and Tyrion are somewhat antagonists to both her and Winterfell, and she's in a position to bring at least LF down presently-- and a simple push or poison would certainly suffice. I guess I don't see that as straining credulity or anything.

[The Mother of The Others]

ummm, what about Lil' Robert as the menace Sansa has slain? (Lysa Arryn as the physical corpse). Seriously. Was it not Lil' Rob whose attack on snow-castle Winterfell Sansa thwarted? (it was his doll, right?) Think about what happened surrounding that incident. Lil' Robert was a jerk when we first met him, being overseen by Lysa the jerkess, a poor role model. As a result of Alayne rising up to defend snow castle Winterfell, Lysa was removed as Robert's guardian, Sansa's Starkness reawakened in part thanks to the snow castle incident, and she was effectively put in charge of Robert's development----and she's been raising him into something other than a complete jerk!!! Get it? The kid would have become an abyssmal ruler if not for Sansa's intercession, bad both for his own kingdom and bad for the health of the surrounding regions, perhaps he'd have wanted to make the riverlands "fly!" at some point over some imagined slight. She's slaying the future giant by teaching this boy how to act like an upright human being instead of a Lysa Jr. She's also potentially gaining the true loyalty of the true ruler of the Vale, perhaps ending the shadowy threat posed by LF right there in a way that hasn't become apparent yet but soon will when LF tries something and Sansa & Robert resist it more effectively than LF thought the kid capable of.

The reason I like this better than having the prophecy refer to future events at Winterfell is because all the other High Heart stuff has already happened so I feel like the Sansa Maid reference should also be to something in previous books. It'd also be great if Sansa could be a Slayer of Lies for the west, like, say if Jon is "permanently detained" from going to Winterfell by his condition, Sansa could be the one who finally sees the fake Arya and ends Ramsay's claim to Winterfell. In that event, the Bolton hold on the North would be the giant. But others will likely take care of this before Sansa gets there on site, and it's less likely High Heart was talking about anything so far removed in time.

[juanml82]

My theory is that the prophecy means that Sansa will kill Stannis.

The deaths of the other four kings in the Wot5K are clearly represented in the prophecy, in chronological order. It makes sense for the last portion to be about the death of Stannis, the last of the Five still living. He needs must die eventually, and it would seem odd if his death were left out, even if he were to die of old age. So I think it's him.

YES! I agree. I don't know how, why and I have nothing to support it, but I also think the giant might be Stannis and the castle Winterfell. Either he dies because of political manipulations made by Sansa (not LF, Sansa) which causes him to die in combat or the Northern lords turn against him at some point and Sansa has to execute him following the Old Ways to prove herself to her Northern banners. Or something else, I don't know.

Regarding Sansa as a non-violent person: while I don't think the word "slay" has to literally mean killing someone with a sharp weapon, I don't agree that Sansa could never be driven to kill or hurt someone physically. The beauty of the characters in ASOIAF is that they're not one-dimensional - at least not most of them. Arya is not always impulsive and angry, and she's learned how to use her brain instead of her sword (and it's served her better); Sansa is not always non-aggressive. Even most non-violent people have their breaking point. I've already mentioned the moment when Sansa was overcome with hatred and wanted to push Joffrey of the tower, even though it would've meant her certain death. The scene with the Snow castle was another moment when Sansa was overcome with anger - "a mad rage seized hold of her" We see some of the suppressed anger in a verbal form when she tells LF "Then give Lord Frey Harenthal".

She's not an aggressive person, but like everyone, she feels anger - how could she not have it, after all she's been through - and she's used to suppressing it, because she's a lady with a courtesy as an armor, and because it was necessary to survive - and it's become he second nature. (I believe that one of the reasons she's drawn to Sandor is because he doesn't care about courtesy or lying or niceties, and always openly showing rage, something she's not free to do.) Instead, she channels it into passive aggression. But it's worth noting that every one of the rare aggressive outbursts she's had was connected to someone hurting her family, or, in the case of the Snow castle, something that symbolically stood for her family. It's certainly worth thinking about what would happen if she learned about LF's involvement in her father's death.

I couldn't have put it better.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I 'm in the foreshadowing within foreshadowing camp. I think that the giant is the doll and the prophesy points to the snow castle event, which is important enough to deserve a prophesy in its own right. The GoHH prophesy has been fullfilled, but the snow castle scene foreshadows events and developements that are still to come.

Plot and character wise, Littlefinger is the one that *must* be destroyed by Sansa. The rest of the candidates don't make for a satisfying developement, IMO.

[The Mother of The Others]

The Lil' Robert idea would apply to Winterfell too, in that Winterfell's fate changed when Sansa won Robert Arryn over. The tiny lord was going to be part of LF's machinery used to attain all the North. Now that'll no longer be the case. So in hindsight it'll look like a gigantic looming threat was slain back at that snow castle, when Robert got taught that smashing Winterfell wasn't cool.

[juanml82]

The Lil' Robert idea would apply to Winterfell too, in that Winterfell's fate changed when Sansa won Robert Arryn over. The tiny lord was going to be part of LF's machinery used to attain all the North. Now that'll no longer be the case. So in hindsight it'll look like a gigantic looming threat was slain back at that snow castle, when Robert got taught that smashing Winterfell wasn't cool.

Sorry, I don't follow you. Robert Arryn is very unlikely to make any decision by himself, and LF plans for the North are only set back by Tyrion and Rickon's continued breathing habits.

[The Mother of The Others]

+ Robert's.

Also,

Ned head attached to black-blooded Gregor Body would give Alayne the chance to fight her father. Maybe the giant hesitates for a moment and refuses to smash his little princess. Yes!

[Jarocal]

+ Robert's.

Also,

Ned head attached to black-blooded Gregor Body would give Alayne the chance to fight her father. Maybe the giant hesitates for a moment and refuses to smash his little princess. Yes!

Tyrion returned Ned's bones as a gesture of good faith. Makes it a bit difficult for unGregor to have a previously tarred Ned head resting on his shoulders.

[Miss]

It seems symbolic at best. Why would the Ghost of High Heart even predict that event if It wasn't an important part of the story? All the other events she predicts are major events. It would make no sense for her to predict the destruction of a doll, really.

Maybe she was glimpsing it because the event was not important, but Sansa is. The visions might be of great people, not just great events.

In any case, the prphecy was so EXACT to what happened with the snow castle that there is no reason to think otherwise.