Sansa's Savage Giant: Right Under Our Noses the Entire Time?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Why not? The only prophecy regarding Sansa--whose entire immediate family (Rickon excepted) has a mass of portentous dreams, prophecies and visions swirling around them--is about Sansa crying to herself (Bran's vision in AGOT), Sansa having poison in her hair (without her knowledge or consent, as it turns out), and apparently about murdering a doll. And yet the fandom eagerly waits for the day when Sansa, a person not inclined towards physical violence and with no physical strength or combat ability, murders the crap out of a savage giant, or does something equally badass, even though all the elements of the prophecy have already been met...through Sansa ripping a doll to shreds, and even though Sansa cannot slay a savage giant without the meaning of those words being completely distorted. The denial runs strong. :D

It seems symbolic at best. Why would the Ghost of High Heart even predict that event if It wasn't an important part of the story? All the other events she predicts are major events. It would make no sense for her to predict the destruction of a doll, really.

[Sansa_Stark]

It seems symbolic at best. Why would the Ghost of High Heart even predict that event if It wasn't an important part of the story? All the other events she predicts are major events. It would make no sense for her to predict the destruction of a doll, really.

what about lysa arryn

[bloodofwinterfell]

what about lysa arryn

Littlefinger kissing Sansa led to Lysa's death. Sansa ripping the doll happened after this, so it doesn't have any direct relation to Lysa. If you believe the giant refers to the doll then you accept that the portion of the prophecy is mundane and has no larger significance whatsoever. That's a perfectly fine interpretation of the prophecy, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that others think differently, especially when you consider how significant the Ghost of High Heart's other prophecies are.

[Sansa_Stark]

Littlefinger kissing Sansa led to Lysa's death. Sansa ripping the doll happened after this, so it doesn't have any direct relation to Lysa. If you believe the giant refers to the doll then you accept that the portion of the prophecy is mundane and has no larger significance whatsoever. That's a perfectly fine interpretation of the prophecy, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that others think differently, especially when you consider how significant the Ghost of High Heart's other prophecies are.

it fits into the theme of sansa being unable to do anything by herself

[Woman of War]

Sansa's "slaying a savage giant" may not be the big badass deed she does and yet have a huge story impact.

If it is not poisoning Robin by accident another kind of accident could easily happen: She might confound two goblets when LF intends her to poison a former ally - and it is Petyr who drinks. Or she may cause some other scenario by accident, by her mere existence.

A character can have a huge story impact without even intending it. Sansa does not have to become the evil queen and murder right and left in the name of Baelish or the avenger heroine who kills right and left in in the name of her personal vendetta.

She can be the butterfly who bats her wings and a mountain crumbles, wreak havoc or poison the Others without even realizing what she is doing.

Her character is a catalyst, who causes or enforces a reaction but stays relatively untouched herself while the world around her goes to pieces - or is restored because she unknowingly added the missing piece to the jigsaw puzzle.

[raoul_duke]

I am not sure I buy into either her kiling Set Robin nor Stannis but really hope that instead LF gets what he deserves eventually.

Howerver, about the concerns of "slaying" being a violent act, I think in law there exists the term "involuntary manslaughter" which derives from slaying. Given that she is not really aware of poisoning SweetRobin that might actually be the case.

[The Sleeper]

Interesting theory, but I'm in the camp that the giant is reffering to the doll. It has been dismissed because of the incidence's lack of importance, but following that event Lysa died, Robert's health has been deteriorating ever since and he has been placed in LF's custody and Sansa's care and in general the events of that chapter have set the stage for the Vale and for Sansa herself. It seems certainly worth having a prophecy about it.

In comparison, the ghost of high heart reffered to the Red Wedding by mentioning the din of the music and the bells on Aegon's crown.

[butterbumps!]

I wonder if it would be useful to put down the High Heart prophesies so the patterns might be more apparent. For the most part, they read like "whodunnits."

The first set comes from aSoS, Arya IV:

I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.

This has already occurred. It refers to the death of a king at the hands of another king, referring to both by their sigil. I'd like to point out that Renly wasn't literally "butchered;" "butchered" seems to be a play on killing a "stag." It gives us killer, victim and (metaphoric) mode.

I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.

This suggests Balon's death at the hands of a Faceless Man, hired at the behest of Euron. It also depicts the death of a king at the hands of another (soon to become) king, with Euron represented by his personal sigil. The victim (Balon) is not mentioned directly, but the mode of death (the FM) location (bridge on Pyke) and the killer.

I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror.

Clearly portending Cat's death and her resurrection. She's referred to by sigil we get a very specific detail of her clawed cheeks, and the Ghost's terror seems to pertain to the fact that she will go beyond death. On this, we only get the victim (Cat) and location (the river).

The second set is Arya VIII. After stating directly that the "Kraken king" and Hoster Tully have both died, she goes on:

In the hall of kings, the goat sits alone and fevered as the great dog descends on him.

Vargo, about to be killed by Gregor, who is going to retake Harrenhal. Both men are referred to by sigils, and we're given the location, killer and victim. Though I can't see Vargo's death as being hugely momentous in the grand scheme of things, the fact that this reflects a human death and a power change is significant.

I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief,” the dwarf woman was saying. “I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.

This is all about the RW, and is describing the atmosphere of the event-- the sounds specifically. It refers to 2 victims-- Grey Wind (howling wolf) and Jinglebell (little bells), but not the killers, other victims or location. It's basically a sensory depiction of what's probably the most game-changing event of the series, and involves multiple deaths, including the death of a king.

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs.

Joffrey's death via poison. We're given the killer (a maid), and the mode of death (poison), but not the victim or location. This was also a huge event, and involved the death of a king. No sigils, but the manner of death is metaphorically described, as the hairnet didn't literally have fangs dripping poison.

Before moving on to the last part, I think there's a few important patterns here.

1. 6 of the 10 people mentioned directly in these prophesies are referred to by sigil; the other 3 use puns/ plays on the person's description. Only Grey Wind is directly named.

2. Every single one of these involves at least one literal human death, and 5/6 describes murder (Cat's focuses on resurrection).

3. Each of these describes pieces of a game-changing event.

4. Each of the actual events described are monumental in and of themselves-- that is, they are not only important for what they set into motion, but in terms of the event in and of itself (murdered kings, power shift, resurrection).

And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

I'm not opposed to the idea that this could be referring to the Snow Castle scene. It could be a subversion of prophesy (something banal showing us that prophesy is untrustworthy), and/ or it could simply be reflecting something hugely important to Sansa personally (the Snow Castle scene is rather pivotal for her developmentally).

But I don't think that if this does reflect the doll slaughter, that it confirms Sansa will do nothing, or would be referring to the rest of the chapter where Lysa is killed. That is, all of these other prophesies pertain to events that are important even in isolation, and I don't think the Snow Castle can be stretched to the whole Lysa debacle keeping the logic of that pattern consistent.

That said, I tend to read this last vision as a continuation of the previous ones-- that is, as a "whodunnit" forecasting a highly significant literal human death using sigils and description for the who, how and where.

From a previous example of prophetic murder, Stannis is said to have "butchered" Renly; it was merely one cut through the throat, hardly "butchering," and this mode of death is clearly a play on the use of "stag." "Slaying" is similar, in that killing giants tends to be referred to as "slaying" them (as in, "giantslayer"). I'd also like to point out that Sam of all people is called "Slayer" after thrusting obsidian into an Other with his eyes closed. At any rate, "Slay" is a play on "giant," and doesn't necessarily reflect a super violent and physically taxing manner of death-- it has more to do with the "giant" reference.

Onto the victim, yes, the doll works. But there is no shortage of actual humans associated with giants that have something to do with either Sansa particularly or the Starks generally. Gregor and LF are obvious, but Tyrion fits as well, and further, he actually has used the term "savage" in reference to himself (“I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you.”) In addition to these, there's also the Umbers, a Watchman named Giant and actual, literal giants. I don't think the Umbers or Giant are plausible, but the point is that there's no shortage of giant candidates.

In terms of location, I don't even think the castle made of snow needs to refer to something around the Eyrie. That is, I'm not so certain this isn't referring to another location. Winterfell and a few castles at the Wall come to mind, which makes a hell of a lot of sense considering the Snow Castle scene is in itself a reference to (and perhaps foreshadowing of) rebuilding Winterfell, and we know that LF is angling for the North through Sansa too (and as it happens, Tyrion has a claim there through Sansa as well).

[aceluby]

Nah... it's just the doll. Prophesies are like that. Some show extremely important events, some do not, and when you're telling them you can't possibly know which are important and which are not. The first dream was clearly the RW. The second was that Sansa had a hairnet with poison in it, which is arguably not that much of a prophecy, just another clue as to who was the real culprit of Joff's death. The third is nearly verbatim to the snow castle scene w/ SR. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but I do not doubt that this will be talked about even after the series is complete because 'the doll isn't important enough'.

[butterbumps!]

I don't think anyone disagrees that the Snow Castle scene fits the vision verbatim.

Part of my problem with the prophesy ending there, however, is that the Snow Castle scene in and of itself is another case of foreshadowing. That is, the Snow Castle scene seems to portend a future event on its own accord. So it would be essentially foreshadowing of foreshadowing.

Though I think the idea of a banal prophesy portending the murder of inanimate object and breaking the pattern of of actual murders is interesting, the Snow Castle is kind of a major piece of symbolism with its own external referents. That's why I think the doll is a bit of a red herring, or at least, the doll is not the end of it-- there's double foreshadowing going on here, with 2 references to Sansa murdering something associated with a giant in a castle associated with snow in the future.

[Annara Snow]

I guess my problem is that "slaying" implies the use of violence to me, like Sansa ripping the head off a doll, and poisoning isn't what I would consider a violent act. A murderous act, yes, but not a violent one. It's really hard to imagine Sansa using violence on anyone, let alone an innocent child (as opposed to that child's doll); she's not a violent person.

Except for that time she wanted to chuck Joffrey of the tower?

...which sort of leads us back to the idea that the prophecy referenced the doll and the miniature snow castle, as opposed to something else, since that fits the prophecy to a tee, and (like the other prophecies made at the same time) it was realized in ASOS. Snow castle? Check. Savage giant? Check. Sansa slaying the giant? Check.

And really, that makes a lot of sense. Sansa doesn't have the physical strength or combat ability to "slay" an actual savage giant, but she does have the ability to rip a child's toy to pieces. I do sometimes wonder if GRRM included the badass-sounding, Sansa-referencing prophecy in ASOS only to realize it with the not-at-all-badass doll murder temper tantrum scenario as a wink to the audience that Sansa is not in fact destined for greatness. Food for thought. :D

I see - it's nonsensical to interpret the prophecies in an even slightly non-literal way - even though none of the other prophecies was literally true (unless you think they were about the deaths of actual stags or goats, rather than people, that there is such a thing as a fish-woman, and that one of the prophecies was about a guy with no eyes, nose or mouth standing on a bridge with a dead crow on his shoulder), but it makes perfect sense to believe that, after all the prophecies about the deaths of kings and power players, the Ghost made a prophecy about a girl destroying a doll...and that GRRM wrote a major character who has an arc over at least six books and is one of the characters with POV chapters, who will do nothing important, only in order to troll the fans who may like this character he's spent so much time building, and to make a few fans like Newstar happy and satisfy their personal grudge against this character due to their identification of this character with the 'type of women' they hate in real life.

Riiiiight... :D

[E-Ro]

Except for that time she wanted to chuck Joffrey of the tower?

I see - it's nonsensical to interpret the prophecies in an even slightly non-literal way - even though none of the other prophecies was literally true (unless you think they were about the deaths of actual stags or goats, rather than people, that there is such a thing as a fish-woman, and that one of the prophecies was about a guy with no eyes, nose or mouth standing on a bridge with a dead crow on his shoulder), but it makes perfect sense to believe that, after all the prophecies about the deaths of kings and power players, the Ghost made a prophecy about a girl destroying a doll...and that GRRM wrote a major character who has an arc over at least six books and is one of the characters with POV chapters, who will do nothing important, only in order to troll the fans who may like this character he's spent so much time building, and to make a few fans like Newstar happy and satisfy their personal grudge against this character due to their identification of this character with the 'type of women' they hate in real life.

Riiiiight... :D

I love this post. Since there are no likes accept this highfive from me(or you can make it a fist bump if that's more your thing)

:highfive!:

[Winter's Knight]

<snip>

Yo, Newstar.

[Woman of War]

.............and satisfy their personal grudge against this character due to their identification of this character with the 'type of women' they hate in real life.

Apart from being off topic this is incredibly impolite and a personal attack. You can spill hate on fictional characters as much as you want, they don't mind but posters should not be attacked.

[Winter's Knight]

Apart from being off topic this is incredibly impolite and a personal attack. You can spill hate on fictional characters as much as you want but posters should not be attacked.

I agree completely. It's almost as bad as constantly suggesting that Sansa fans are silly, romantic women who project their own unfeminist desires for a simpler time when they didn't have to think about running their own lives onto the characters.

But I'm sure neither you nor anyone else here would ever do that. :rolleyes:

[E-Ro]

Damn it's so hot in here.

[Woman of War]

I agree completely. It's almost as bad as constantly suggesting that Sansa fans are silly, romantic women who project their own unfeminist desires for a simpler time when they didn't have to think about running their own lives onto the characters.

But I'm sure neither you nor anyone else here would ever do that. :rolleyes:

No, I would not do that.

Are you a silly romantic woman?

[Sansa_Stark]

whats going on in this topic

[The Ned's Little Girl]

whats going on in this topic

What always goes on in every Sansa topic.....

:bang:

[Elba the Intoner]

Back to the discussion,

From Butterbumps' post -

"Before moving on to the last part, I think there's a few important patterns here.

1. 6 of the 10 people mentioned directly in these prophesies are referred to by sigil; the other 3 use puns/ plays on the person's description. Only Grey Wind is directly named.

2. Every single one of these involves at least one literal human death, and 5/6 describes murder (Cat's focuses on resurrection).

3. Each of these describes pieces of a game-changing event.

4. Each of the actual events described are monumental in and of themselves-- that is, they are not only important for what they set into motion, but in terms of the event in and of itself (murdered kings, power shift, resurrection).

And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

That said, I tend to read this last vision as a continuation of the previous ones-- that is, as a "whodunnit" forecasting a highly significant literal human death using sigils and description for the who, how and where.

From a previous example of prophetic murder, Stannis is said to have "butchered" Renly; it was merely one cut through the throat, hardly "butchering," and this mode of death is clearly a play on the use of "stag." "Slaying" is similar, in that killing giants tends to be referred to as "slaying" them (as in, "giantslayer"). I'd also like to point out that Sam of all people is called "Slayer" after thrusting obsidian into an Other with his eyes closed. At any rate, "Slay" is a play on "giant," and doesn't necessarily reflect a super violent and physically taxing manner of death-- it has more to do with the "giant" reference.

Onto the victim, yes, the doll works. But there is no shortage of actual humans associated with giants that have something to do with either Sansa particularly or the Starks generally. Gregor and LF are obvious, but Tyrion fits as well, and further, he actually has used the term "savage" in reference to himself (“I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you.”) In addition to these, there's also the Umbers, a Watchman named Giant and actual, literal giants. I don't think the Umbers or Giant are plausible, but the point is that there's no shortage of giant candidates."

_______________________

Well done Butterbumps. I am leaning towards LF as the savage giant myself for some of the reasons other people have said, and in particular I do believe he is a very savage man, but also because of his hidden sigil as the Titan of Braavos. The sigil has been used significantly in the Ghost of High Heart's prophesy as has been pointed out above. Also, here's another bit of evidence linking LF to the Titan. In the chapter where Sansa is building Snow Winterfell and LF helps her, at one point he "steps over the walls" of Winterfell. Then, in Arya's chapter when she arrives in Braavos, which happens at almost the exact same time as the snow Winterfell chapter, Arya looks at the Titan of Braavos and thinks how huge it is and how it could step right over the walls of Winterfell.

{edited to fix the quotes which don't seem to be working right now (for me anyway)}