Datepalm Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I disagree with that, I don't think his behaviors really do have real consequences - whether "real" be the audience as we watch or "real" in the sitcom world. In the real world, the character and Parsons portrayal of it are winning awards and getting lauded. In the sitcom world, he acts like an ass and everyone just bows down to accept it. I agree everyone else still keeping him around is a bit of a stretch, (it needs quite a bit of handwaving and assuming they're all pretty screwed up themselves, whether it's Leonard's love of abuse or Amy's crushingly low self esteem) but on the level of consequences - I guess for me it's all these awful, humiliating moments that the character has, and his general incompetence. It's a little meta, but that's how I see it. For every scene where he has control or a great line, there will be one like where he's just reduced to being all but unwatchable by being obliviously racist or sexist to the Human Resources lady or ridiculously manipulated by Amy or pathetically incapable of telling a joke on purpose. (I think Parson's performance really highlights all that, tbh. All the twitching and contorting and high pitched squeals. He is just not a character often allowed much dignity.) That's his commeuppance, that he's so often laughed at, rather than with, if not downright pitied or loathed, by the text. I just don't think finding him a terrible person is going against the show's grain at all. That a lot of people seem to think he's a hero...well, people are nuts and easily swayed by a catchphrase and a few good lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Yeah, I'd say I kind of hate both Sheldon Cooper the person and the character. The person is a spoiled obnoxious brat and the character is too often Sheldon Cooper the Episode Plot Device. I know this is a sitcom and it's not meant to be taken seriously but more often than not I find myself being distracted by the question, "what exactly keeps these people around Sheldon?" I disagree with that, I don't think his behaviors really do have real consequences - whether "real" be the audience as we watch or "real" in the sitcom world. In the real world, the character and Parsons portrayal of it are winning awards and getting lauded. In the sitcom world, he acts like an ass and everyone just bows down to accept it. It begs a question: Is Sheldon, character and person, original? Because in the end, is there new ground being broken here by Parsons? Barney Stinson, Cosmo Kramer, others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 It begs a question: Is Sheldon, character and person, original? Because in the end, is there new ground being broken here by Parsons? Barney Stinson, Cosmo Kramer, others... Schmidt on New Girl comes to mind as well. I think there's something weirdly fragile about Sheldon though that makes him more interesting, at least for me. He's outrageous like the others, but he's also far more glaringly limited. (The lack of humor, the obliviousness, the fussiness, hissy fits and routines, the alienation of all that science talk. Oh, and the virginity, particularly compared to the way the others are hyper-sexualized.) Schmidt or Barney have moments of that as well, but they also have a lot more redemption. Sheldon just seems doomed to live there forever. Come on, tell me this scene - how pathetically pleased he is to be a part of the moment, for once, and yet how clear it is that he has no idea why or how he stumbled into it - isn't just a little heartbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It begs a question: Is Sheldon, character and person, original? Because in the end, is there new ground being broken here by Parsons? Barney Stinson, Cosmo Kramer, others... Ironically, I really enjoy Barney because in many ways, he gets his comeupanace and isn't just a total dbag. But generally, those are the characters I dislike - I never was a fan of Senfield mostly because of Kramer. Sheldon I tolerate because when he's funny, he is funny. Ross from Friends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Is Ross the ridiculous-outrageous one on Friends? I'd put it on Phoebe, if anyone. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady narcissa Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think he plays the character fantastically, but I hate the person Sheldon Cooper is. I think even though he is compelling from the standpoint of being so broken that my frustration at how he does behave to his friends overrides any appreciation I could have. The more I think about it the more I realize the show just doesn't make me laugh like it used to.This is about where I am with Sheldon's character and the show. I pretty much watch TBBT all the time. Its on every evening on various channels in repeats. You could easily watch it 4 hours an evening if you wanted without resorting to on demand or dvds. So in my mind I think I'm a fan of TBBT and enjoy it and watch it a lot...but primarily only when watching repeats of the first few seasons. Sometime around last season I stopped enjoying many of the new episodes primarily because of Sheldon's character. I really liked Sheldon's character up until last season. He was annoying as hell and I wouldn't want to be friends with him but he was kind of quirky and fun to watch as a television character. Last season he just became unlikeable for a good chunk of the time and it really has diminished my enjoyment of the new episodes. I'll keep watching because I like watching everyone else and their stories and for the rare moments when I don't want to kick Sheldon. But its not the same as it used to be. In last night's episode, I absolutely hated that everyone caved in and abandoned the dining room table. I would have much preferred to have seen Sheldon develop his own spot at the table (as Leonard pointed about about the sofa) in a future episode and had him act like the table was his own great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Is Ross the ridiculous-outrageous one on Friends? I'd put it on Phoebe, if anyone. . Phoebe is the ridiculous one in that group, true. I just hate Ross, mostly because of the whine level he brought to the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Copernicus on Ain't It Cool attends the taping of this past episode of TBBT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Phoebe is the ridiculous one in that group, true. I just hate Ross, mostly because of the whine level he brought to the show. Ross is the worst, it is known. (Sorry, Starkess.) The problem with Ross, I guess, is that I never had a shred of sympathy for him. With Sheldon, (and to an extent New Girl's Schmidt, before he got boring this season) after watching like three episodes there was already something nervewracking about him. I just wanted someone to come up to him and tell him to stand the fuck still for a moment. It's ok. It's allowed. Just try. Just to see what happens. At some point over Season 6, I think, that all slid from being a running gag into an actual character issue that the show actually addresses and it was such a relief. That scene where Penny interrogates him about sex and hits Leonard in excitment is so great because she's like an audience stand in there. OH MY GOD they're finally talking about it. !!!. Ross, on the other hand, I mostly just want to vanish off of the screen when he starts up. He's annoying, but there's no energy to him, no tension. There was nothing about the character that made me want to find out what's under the annoying. That tension makes or breaks those super-quirky, unrealistic comedy characters for me. Barney, for example, had too much revealed at some point, and just got mushy. The sad, messed up guy who had his heart broken and just wanted to find his father and so on had been revealed too much, and given too much pathos and dignity, so the tension of the demented, desperate weirdo who must always wear a suit was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkess Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Ross is the worst, it is known. (Sorry, Starkess.) No no, don't mind me, I'll just be over here in the corner crying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Ok. Watched the last episode. It was intriguing all around. A lot of little things for everyone to do.Making fun of Raj's accent would have worked better if it hadn't taken all these seasons to do...I'm torn on whether it was a return to old Sheldon, or even old Amy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 No no, don't mind me, I'll just be over here in the corner crying... Like Ross, eh? :leaving: Ok. Watched the last episode. It was intriguing all around. A lot of little things for everyone to do.Making fun of Raj's accent would have worked better if it hadn't taken all these seasons to do...I'm torn on whether it was a return to old Sheldon, or even old Amy. The attempted break-up seemed a lot more about freaking out over the kiss than about the table, really, and he wasn't exactly hard to talk down from it. He tried to go back to Old Sheldon, and failed. Yeah, he could mess with Leonard and keep everyone around the coffee table, but he was forced to do it through emotion and manipulation, and he certainly didn't dump Amy. Who messed with him too, but also had his back, ultimately. It was nice to see her manipulative streak again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 The attempted break-up seemed a lot more about freaking out over the kiss than about the table, really, and he wasn't exactly hard to talk down from it. He tried to go back to Old Sheldon, and failed. Yeah, he could mess with Leonard and keep everyone around the coffee table, but he was forced to do it through emotion and manipulation, and he certainly didn't dump Amy. Who messed with him too, but also had his back, ultimately. It was nice to see her manipulative streak again though.Has Amy really ever lost that manipulative streak though? It's like she's playing a long game on Sheldon. Sometimes her deal isn't readily apparent, but it seems like it's always there...though Penny did give her time to plan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Has Amy really ever lost that manipulative streak though? It's like she's playing a long game on Sheldon. Sometimes her deal isn't readily apparent, but it seems like it's always there...though Penny did give her time to plan... Dunno. Maybe she is just playing her own secret game there, but I can also see a version where she's just genuinely lonely and not mature enough to know how to move past an inappropriate crush, and thinks that this is the best she can do, games and conspiracies and all. (I'm just a little averse to any reading that gives any character too much power, essentially, which is why I also tend to shy away from villain!Sheldon.) Anyway, I think they kind of go back and forth in terms who has the upper hand. Sometimes he's just stringing her along, sometimes she's tricking him into something he doesn't want. (Very, very rarely they actually meet in some kind of middle and make some progress.) Whenever it's too much of one of them getting their way, the relationship starts to seem borderline (or not so borderline) abusive. It seems like it's been on Sheldon's end for a while now, so Amy sucessfully pulling his strings balances things out again a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would like to point out that Mom keeps being really good and bizarrely schitzophrenic, all at once. I should probably get it it's own thread, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would like to point out that Mom keeps being really good and bizarrely schitzophrenic, all at once. I should probably get it it's own thread, I suppose. It gets to leave the "little kid table" if side discussions and get its own? Similarly, thought of another character I loathe - Alan Harper from Two and a Half Men. There is no question in my mind he is a far worse person than Charlie ever was. While it is still a Lorre show, I really hope they move away from the "SEE! SEE!! We have a LESBIAN!!! It's HILARIOUS!!11!!" I'm not looking for highbrow humor in anyway, but her character just sucks. More Berta please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I did - in a fit of a kind of horrified, fascinated completionism, when it became clear that apparently Chuck Lorre stuff just works for me - watch about half the first season. I have to admit I didn't mind it. At least, I wasn't offended, though I can see why people would be, but didn't think it was particularly good either. Rose was probably my favorite thing about it. Off to find a quote for a Mom thread...maybe something from Brecht... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 Datepalm's Favorite TBBT Episodes: the Sad, the Subversive and the Simply Strange (I just want to say that, honest to god, these were my original, authentic reactions, watching the show out of the corner of my eye at like 2 in the morning during bouts of insomnia over some holiday. The rationalizing and explanations is working backwards from why the hell a very plainly goofy, shallow sitcom was making me so sad so consistently and why it was so weirdly compelling. No, I still have no idea if any of it is on purpose.) Season 1, ep 1: Pilot Yes, the pilot is one of my favorites. It's got all the best TBBT elements - selfishness, awkwardness, humiliation, failure, an ironic and catastrophic lack of self-awareness, a cynical, critical eye for traditional gender performance, narrative motion measured in interpersonal intimacy rather than concrete plot progress of any kind and very little in the way of a third act. The guys meet Penny and are immediately smitten with her, for the simple reasons that she's hot and that she's capable of talking in complete sentences to strangers, which makes her a visitor from outer space in Leonard-and-Sheldon terms. Penny flirts with them because flirting is basically her only way of relating to men and mercilessly - and also probably mostly obliviously - manipulates them into doing her the huge favour of retrieving her TV. This sees them humiliated and emasculated in the most uncomfortable, infantile way possible, and Penny's continuing attentions a matter of guilt rather than any respect. The End. One complaint about Penny is that she's supposed to be 'street smart', but instead comes off as either ditzy or a bitch or both. But being part of a close network of friends who will do you favours and have your back, is street smart. Cultivating the geeks next door with a little flirting - harmless to her, possibly heartbreaking for them - is exactly a function of building up that network, and Penny does it effortlessly. Street smart is effective, but it's also a little selfish and mean, nothing to glory in. Of course, book smart turns out to be no better - Leonard can see straight through Penny's flirting, but he's completely powerless to resist it. Penny herself is quite ridiculous. Her acting dreams and her little introductory backstory are thoroughly mocked. It's all Leonard can do not to call her a moron, and Sheldon does. (The beginning of what will grow into her disappointment with herself is also already there.) Sheldon is a bit off what he'll be, but the twitchy mess of self-limiting neuroses and that quietly sad lack of life-experience - or seemingly any ambition for it - are firmly in place. Raj and Howard show up briefly, just enough to give a sense that Raj is both abrasive and pathetic, and Howard to show a demented, desperate and thoroughly offputting energy. Leonard is an esteem-less blob, already being buffeted by the two much more confident people he's stuck between. His only redeeming feature is that he's not as creepy and pathetic as his friends. So, everyone is shallow and selfish, and yet no one is to blame, per se. No one is doing anything on purpose, no one is a villain, they're just each moving through their own flaws, desires and limitations. Neither the TV nor Leonard and Sheldon's dignity is ever recovered. It all adds up to nothing but embarassment...and the tiny grace of a tolerant shrug from a pretty girl. In this world, these are the precious banalities with which life is measured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 Season 4, Episode 8 - the 21 Second Excitation The guys go off to see a new cut of an Indiana Jones movie, don't get to see it, are insulted by Wil Wheaton on the way, and then steal the movie because they're selfish idiots and run away with it, chased by a geek mob. (It's an unusually cheerily silly and empowering ending for a TBBT episode, actually.) The good bit of this one, however, is Amy crashing Penny and Bernadette's girl's night. I really think that if you don't feel something for Amy's attempts to insinuate herself into girl's night by standing there and repeating "I'm a girl" with her weird, stubborn courage, until Penny breaks down and invites her, then you have no soul and I can't help you. Amy doesn't have the confidence or the social skills to carry on the kind of natural conversation that would do this more organically. She also has no experience whatsoever of that kind of friendship (or any friendship, apparently, bar Sheldon) but is completely desperate for it, and I would argue she's also clearly desperate for that element of participating in the specifically feminine experience in particular. The slumber party clearly has a totally different value for her than going to the movie with the guys. Then she spends the night trying to teach herself things that most people have managed to get socialized into by the by, through the simple virtue of...having had friends. Reading up on the rules of truth or dare or googling what to do at slumber parties is both funny and sad, but the best bit is that it doesn't actually serve her very well. She gets the dry facts, but has no social or personal context for them, and is awkward, pushy and obnoxious despite clearly trying very hard. Penny and Bernadette respond mostly with pity and a bit of recoil. The cruel truth is that there's no magic way to replace the experiences she missed growing up, and it's a long and very awkward journey for her to pick up the social codes and applications of basic empathy that eventually make her not unbearable to be around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 6.16 - The Tangible Affection Proof The Valentine's day episode. Does that thing where all the big classic-romantic plans fall apart and each couple instead reaffirms their relationship in quirky, personal ways. Pretty standard so far, though I do particularly like the bluntness of Leonard's romantic gesture being to stop asking her to marry him and Amy's being cancelling Valentine's all together. Sheldon is also interestingly opaque here - he sends his assistant to buy Amy a present, with 2000 dollars randomly pulled out of drawers. Generosity? Guilt? Habitual cluelessness about money? Then comes through with making her his emergency contact - a gift that's essentially selfish, and very manipulative and yet also extremely insightful, all wrapped in the excellently prosaic image of a name on a form. What really makes this episode is Raj's speech at the end though. He talks Stuart into throwing a party for people alone on Valentines, and steps up to defend it when the atmosphere is less than giddy. His speech is a pitch perfect collection of empowering individualist sensibilities with it's seeming sincerity and dignity for the unconventional. (I maintain someone was at least subconsciously channeling a Jeff Winger speech when they wrote it.) It's a call for self esteem freed from social expectations and a community of choice as a buffer against alienation. It's also completely and utter nonsense which Raj rejects utterly the moment he gets what he actually wants - a girl. ("Later, losers!", is the exact quote.) Quirky, unique and personally empowering is for people who have dates on Valentine's day. His attempts to build a political bulwark against society flounder on the reefs of loneliness, and he surrenders his principles and betrays his short-lived community for the opportunity a cup of coffee with a girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.