Big Bang Theory 6: The Suffering of Being Unable to Love

[Tellus Explorer]

What do you see as being the difference? I use the words interchangeably, but I wonder if the language is moving on.

Because there not the same thing. (Sheldon would be so mad at you :) )

In my opinion.that is.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/01/geeks_vs_nerds_whose_side_are_you_on/

[Datepalm]

Because there not the same thing. (Sheldon would be so mad at you :) )

In my opinion.that is.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/01/geeks_vs_nerds_whose_side_are_you_on/

Lol, that's neat. (Mappable onto a scale of consumption vs engagement again.) I apologize to you and to Sheldon. But why does it make a difference in the show?

[Tellus Explorer]

Double post. Sorry

[Tellus Explorer]

Lol, that's neat. (Mappable onto a scale of consumption vs engagement again.) I apologize to you and to Sheldon. But why does it make a difference in the show?

No apology needed I'm just messing around :p

But I think it makes a difference in the show because it's one thing to be knowledgeable about computers and such, but these guys we're supposed to be scientists. It's like at first they we're Nerds and now their being reformed into Geeks. Which makes the show a bit boring or not as funny as it used to be... To me at least.

[Datepalm]

Isn't the point the contrast between them and Penny though? Penny is neither a geek or a nerd, in any definition.

[Greywolf2375]

No apology needed I'm just messing around :P

But I think it makes a difference in the show because it's one thing to be knowledgeable about computers and such, but these guys we're supposed to be scientists. It's like at first they we're Nerds and now their being reformed into Geeks. Which makes the show a bit boring or not as funny as it used to be... To me at least.

I disagree with that...I think they have always been both. Initially it was more highly science based humor and topics, but they have moved on and brought in the comic books, D&D, etc. They have had episodes on their collectibles, ComicCon. It's not that they left behind that they are nerds, just brought in that they are geeks as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Coral,

Because there not the same thing. (Sheldon would be so mad at you :) )

In my opinion.that is.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/01/geeks_vs_nerds_whose_side_are_you_on/

If Sheldon would be mad about conflating the flexable definitions of "nerd" and "geek" how do you think he would react to using "there" instead of "they're" or "they are"?

[koudoulis]

the notion that there is a difference between a geek and a nerd , and that the words themselves have a meaning on an individual's past, education etc is just the normal misconception that runs through american culture that people must belong to a systemic group. You self define these groups and award them arbitrarly a social status that traps the individuals from a very early age. If you must know from my point of view there is not a more horrible enviroment in the developed world , than what is depicted as your public school system. the proms , kings and queens , quarterbacks and cheerleaders , the segregation in the dining hall . children getting shaped in a microsociety where beauty and class are the race of yesterday. I am not yet quite sure about the real meaning of big bang theory , but i am sure that from the very start it holds this notion in front of your face and pokes holes at it. These restrictions placed upon the charaters is the root of their unhappiness. These restrictions also have brought Penny to chase a facade with no real assets , failing miserably. oh tbbt has its flaws and they are many, but confusing geeks with nerds is not a flaw of the show.

[SpaceChampion]

Isn't the point the contrast between them and Penny though? Penny is neither a geek or a nerd, in any definition.

Isn't Penny more of a jock type than anything else? I'll maintain that nerds and jocks have more in common with each other than they do with any other "type", self-defined or not. Both nerds and jocks value achievement, one achievement of skill and the mind, and the other achievement of skill and the body.

[Jaxom 1974]

Amy and Bernie are nice but lose them both. Set the Howard loose and have him and Raj rebecome the duo they were. Break up Penny and Leonard and have a string of Beverly episodes to "help" Leonard. Amy is nothing compared to Beverly. More awesome Sheldon and more epic geeky adventures pls.

We get it, you were going lazy so decided to bring more characters and squeeze out as much content from geeks being akward in relationships in a very cliche, repetetive, utterly draggy way.

Cool, now get back from the creatitivity time-out.

For the women/relationship stuff - eh, the show always had women on a bit of a pedestral as this redemptive thing, from day 1. It's almost chivalric. Adding Amy and Bernadette works, for me at least, no so much because there's shippy stuff (though I am fond of the sad mess that is Sheldon/Amy) but because any Penny-Amy-Bernadette scene/subplot is usually the funniest thing in the show now.

CoralM knows what i am talking about.

Sci,

Sure, if you were to put it that simply - yes addition of two more major female characters is a major thing that made the show worse. It is still good but other roads would have made it better.

Bernie and especially Amy are nice characters but they served to dilute, simplify a lot of dynamics while taking away some fun ones and introducing less fun ones.

I did provide main bulletpoints to say why.

I can elaborate more.

Couldn't disagree more that the show has suffered from the addition of Amy and Bernadette. If they hadn't been added, this show would have ended years ago because it would have run it's course and become just another traditional sit-com in every sense of the word.

The underlying theme beneathe everything that's gone on through the course of the show is growth (maybe Sheldon excepted in some ways, but he's also grown). From a small core, a big bang, the expansion of the universe. Means additional characters, expanded plots, new looks at older tropes, subverting the commonly held perceptions.

If you, HEP, are only looking for Howard and Raj out on the town chasing women they can never "have" because of who they are and what they are purported to be, then you're looking for a different show.

Coral,

If Sheldon would be mad about conflating the flexable definitions of "nerd" and "geek" how do you think he would react to using "there" instead of "they're" or "they are"?

Bazinga!

On an aside, was watching the episode, from sometime in 2010, when Sheldon won an award, got hammered and gave a stand up routine/comedy show as his speech where he ended up with no pants on YouTube...is it just me, or are the only times where Sheldon doesn't come out smelling like a rose when he had alcohol involved?

[Datepalm]

the notion that there is a difference between a geek and a nerd , and that the words themselves have a meaning on an individual's past, education etc is just the normal misconception that runs through american culture that people must belong to a systemic group. You self define these groups and award them arbitrarly a social status that traps the individuals from a very early age. If you must know from my point of view there is not a more horrible enviroment in the developed world , than what is depicted as your public school system. the proms , kings and queens , quarterbacks and cheerleaders , the segregation in the dining hall . children getting shaped in a microsociety where beauty and class are the race of yesterday. I am not yet quite sure about the real meaning of big bang theory , but i am sure that from the very start it holds this notion in front of your face and pokes holes at it. These restrictions placed upon the charaters is the root of their unhappiness. These restrictions also have brought Penny to chase a facade with no real assets , failing miserably. oh tbbt has its flaws and they are many, but confusing geeks with nerds is not a flaw of the show.

:bowdown:

[Datepalm]

On an aside, was watching the episode, from sometime in 2010, when Sheldon won an award, got hammered and gave a stand up routine/comedy show as his speech where he ended up with no pants on YouTube...is it just me, or are the only times where Sheldon doesn't come out smelling like a rose when he had alcohol involved?

I remember that one - jeez, it's difficult to watch. That said, he gets egg on his face plenty even without alcohol. His oblivious racism and sexism at work immediately come to mind, but he always seems to end up pranked, embarassed or humiliated in any professional context. He badgers Howard into arranging a meeting with Hawking, and turns out to have a dumb mistake and faints. He thinks he's discovered his monopole things in the north pole trip, and it turns out to be fake data to get him to shut up. He find his new element, but gets it disproved by Leonard. He also gets into a fistfight with Leonard at a conference and gets pranked by Kripke at some point while doing an experiment, IIRC.

[Sci-2]

the notion that there is a difference between a geek and a nerd , and that the words themselves have a meaning on an individual's past, education etc is just the normal misconception that runs through american culture that people must belong to a systemic group. You self define these groups and award them arbitrarly a social status that traps the individuals from a very early age. If you must know from my point of view there is not a more horrible enviroment in the developed world , than what is depicted as your public school system. the proms , kings and queens , quarterbacks and cheerleaders , the segregation in the dining hall . children getting shaped in a microsociety where beauty and class are the race of yesterday. I am not yet quite sure about the real meaning of big bang theory , but i am sure that from the very start it holds this notion in front of your face and pokes holes at it. These restrictions placed upon the charaters is the root of their unhappiness. These restrictions also have brought Penny to chase a facade with no real assets , failing miserably. oh tbbt has its flaws and they are many, but confusing geeks with nerds is not a flaw of the show.

First off the first part of your post is bloody brilliant.

But....BBT pokes holes? Are we watching the same show?

Seriously though, I think BBT revels in the differences between the intelligentsia and "normals".

Seems to me the show can be read as comfort food for uneducated white people. Don't demand more, because look at the intellectual elite and how miserable their lives are. Heck the foreigner can't even talk!

What makes it worse as an opiate is Sheldon and Howard, at least, don't seem to come from wealthy families. Makes me think of Chomsky's Education is Ignorance essay and his claim about how the working class is being engineered into being and taking pride in their lack of knowledge.

Not saying the show is definitely a sedative for any potential revolution through educating one's self, but I'd read it that way before I thought of it as poking holes. Now there is a comedy about people who come from troubled backgrounds educating themselves and improving themselves in a diverse environmnent....in fact it's on at the same time. ;-)

[Disturber of Peace]

I can see why you argue against what i said about relations between characters being simplified.

You are in the right.

There are more complicated now.

But things had more quality and humour when they were about their experience of the world more than their personal relationships.

I am not saying they should never have relationships, short or longterm. I am saying that i did not like that the show became almost all about that, that it has the main focus over their other adventures (this is what Community does well). Perhaps i would if it was done better.

Individual characters are not really smaller as i originally said but the focus has mainly switched to their bad sides bickoring.

I stand by the "Poor man's 2.5 Men with a nerd/geek twist" description.

As i said i like Amy and Bernie. But i would never make them main characters the way they are now.

Tis is not a gender matter. If the show about 4 geek/different in some way girls having fun adventures turned into a mediocre show about their amorous relationships with introduction of additional major male characters i would object the same way. Not that steering a show in that direction must always be worse. But in this case it was.

And the show was definately more unique before.

[Sci-2]

Coral,

If Sheldon would be mad about conflating the flexable definitions of "nerd" and "geek" how do you think he would react to using "there" instead of "they're" or "they are"?

Ser Scot - I do agree these are important distinctions to learn, but I can't resist the temptation to poke a little good natured fun and say look to your own house man. And by house, I mean spelling. ;-)

[Datepalm]

First off the first part of your post is bloody brilliant.

But....BBT pokes holes? Are we watching the same show?

Seriously though, I think BBT revels in the differences between the intelligentsia and "normals".

Seems to me the show can be read as comfort food for uneducated white people. Don't demand more, because look at the intellectual elite and how miserable their lives are. Heck the foreigner can't even talk!

What makes it worse as an opiate is Sheldon and Howard, at least, don't seem to come from wealthy families. Makes me think of Chomsky's Education is Ignorance essay and his claim about how the working class is being engineered into being and taking pride in their lack of knowledge.

Not saying the show is definitely a sedative for any potential revolution through educating one's self, but I'd read it that way before I thought of it as poking holes. Now there is a comedy about people who come from troubled backgrounds educating themselves and improving themselves in a diverse environmnent....in fact it's on at the same time. ;-)

I think you're conflating representation with exposition here, in terms of calls to action. (Think 1984. Is it pro Big Brother because Big Brother crushes Winston?) Community is opiate here. It is a portrait of the aspirative, while TBBT is an analysis of the flaws of the extant. It's a tricky line to walk, because it assumes that it's viewers aren't so far gone as to revel in their ignorance to the extent that they are, say, identifying with Penny's astrology to the point that they can't even see all the ways the show marks it as stupid. (If they do identify with the Astrology only somewhat, the show should be offending them, not celebrating them, which is what - I think - it's trying to do. But if they're too far gone, than the satire simply becomes the reality, like those mythical people who watch Colbert and think he's a real news show and so countereffective.)

I would argue that Penny is clearly being marked as the one intellectually in the wrong in the Astrology episode, and the fact that Leonard surrenders to her is a critique of anti-intellectualism, not a celebration of it. That she wins is an acknowledgement, an illustration of the corrosive, insidious power of social and interpersonal dynamics to crush Leonard's principles and ego. Had Leonard won, that would have been the palliative, the opium. "Astrology isn't so bad. It's just a little quirk some people hold. It has no real influence and people can be easily talked out of it." By letting Leonard lose, it's a warning and an indictment. "Watch out. You're living in a time where even an obvious piece of idiocy has power, because we've so devalued real science that even a practicing physicist is unable to fight back anymore."

The show is very conscious of how incredibly enormous the forces ranged against Leonard are: acceptance, love, sex, validation, keeping the peace. All that he's got against Penny is intellectual integrity, and the point is exactly that that has become worthless.

[Datepalm]

oh tbbt has its flaws and they are many, but confusing geeks with nerds is not a flaw of the show.

By the way, what do you see as the show's flaws? My problem with is it is that I keep seeing it's various facets as all circling back to being a show about flaws, so it's getting hard for me to disentangle.

[koudoulis]

By the way, what do you see as the show's flaws? My problem with is it is that I keep seeing it's various facets as all circling back to being a show about flaws, so it's getting hard for me to disentangle.

the truth is that i find it more and more difficult to watch. and its getting weird to the point where there are scenes that people laugh and i find absolutely heartbreaking. Like howards fear of going back to space. it was an unecessary plot. it started and finished in the same episode. it could be replaced with literally anything. Yet, they chose this, the boy that grew up with science fiction and engineering space rockets and he backs off the chance to redeem himself in the greatest achievement he ever espired to. i know it is how things would have played out , it stings though.

there are flaws inherent to the show. the format of the sitcom is deeply established by this point that they lack tools ( if not the volition) for character study.

also , when they try their hand in a really straighforward funny episode , they often miss nowadays unlike earlier seasons. i really dont remember a funny sequence like the one with james earl jones for quite some time.

have to think more and get back to you

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sci,

You're post Osravan aren't you? If you think my spelling is bad...

[lokisnow]

That is one of the interesting things as well - Parsons is on record as saying he plays Sheldon as if he does have Asperger's even though the god of that universe has stated otherwise.

I think the character Sheldon is jealous of people with Aspergers and aspires to act like them whenever he can. Which just makes him an even bigger jerk. :)