Winter's Knight Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Will all the Pisswater Princes please stand up. We just went from too many secret Targs to too few. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Not this again, please. Aegon is born 282, Jon is born 283. Lyanna disappears only after Aegon is born. Exactly. To add, Rhaegar only disappears after Elia has given birth. Wait, so you're saying that Elia passed off a Flea Bottom boy as her son. Said boy was switched out with another boy from FB and is currently with JonC? Will all the Pisswater Princes please stand up. This is just waaaaaaaaaay too hilarious :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shah Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 second child is miraculously male I didn't realize having son was so uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 A theory for consideration - What is Jon Snow was actually Aegon from the beginning with Lyanna as his real mother and the reported "child" of Elia was in fact a Pisswater Prince? -Elia was extremely frail and would be under pressure to produce a male heir as would Rhaegar -Elia suddenly "can no longer have children" after a second child is miraculously male -Lyanna disappears in time for Aegon to potentially be her child -Rhaegar clearly loves Lyanna -Dying in a pool of her own blood could also be caused by bloody flux or other reasons I love alternate theories, so I'll think along... Lyanna was missing for about... 15 months to two years, according to differing estimates on this board, so yes, presumably she could have had a baby at around the same age as "Jon." I wouldn't discount it. I've often thought Lyanna had time for 2 pregnancies, one ending in miscarriage. And yes, there are other ways to die in a bed of blood other than childbirth complications... just ask Robert or Shae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blugenes Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 BTW I'm very new here so if this has been done then...oops. I read the books and wondered if both Aegon and Jon Snow might not be full brothers via R+L, but given GRRM's allusions this seems less likely. Then again it also occurs with enough frequency that it causes us to question even seemingly obvious things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 BTW I'm very new here so if this has been done then...oops. I read the books and wondered if both Aegon and Jon Snow might not be full brothers via R+L, but given GRRM's allusions this seems less likely. Then again it also occurs with enough frequency that it causes us to question even seemingly obvious things. Welcome, and keep thinking. That's what keeps the gears going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Shah, on 04 Jan 2014 - 3:11 PM, said: I didn't realize having son was so uncommon. Me neither. I guess Gilly, Dalla and Lollys' sons are all Aegon. And so is my friend's baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 A theory for consideration - What is Jon Snow was actually Aegon from the beginning with Lyanna as his real mother and the reported "child" of Elia was in fact a Pisswater Prince? -Elia was extremely frail and would be under pressure to produce a male heir as would Rhaegar-Elia suddenly "can no longer have children" after a second child is miraculously male-Lyanna disappears in time for Aegon to potentially be her child-Rhaegar clearly loves Lyanna-Dying in a pool of her own blood could also be caused by bloody flux or other reasonsWell while I like to think of my Gender as miraculous, me in particular, according to doctors a woman has a near equal chance of having either a male or female with a slight edge to females. It's crazy I know but it actually works like that, or maybe the doctors are lying. It's all a plot, they are trying to cover up the miraculous male miracle of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 And yes, there are other ways to die in a bed of blood other than childbirth complications... just ask Robert or Shae. It's not about dying while bleeding in a bed. It's about how the phrases "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" have been used. The only times when those specific wordings have been used, the connotation was childbirth. ETA: And actually Shae was strangled, so there wasn't any blood there anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It's not about dying while bleeding in a bed. It's about how the phrases "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" have been used. Despite dying with bleeding involved, neither Robert's death nor Shae's included wording like that. The only times when those specific wordings have been used, the connotation was childbirth. Well until it's canon, we're both working with the same info, and differering ideas how to interpret it. No worries. Thinking outside the box is a good thing sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shah Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It's not about dying while bleeding in a bed. It's about how the phrases "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" have been used. The only times when those specific wordings have been used, the connotation was childbirth. ETA: And actually Shae was strangled, so there wasn't any blood there anyway. And it's commonly used throughout history to describe dying while giving birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Well until it's canon, we're both working with the same info, and differering ideas how to interpret it. If we had the phrase "bed of blood" or "bloody bed" used in any way other than childbirth, you might have a point. But we don't, so you don't. There's "thinking outside the box," and there's proposing an idea that doesn't work. They're not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 If we had the phrase "bed of blood" or "bloody bed" used in any way other than childbirth, you might have a point. But we don't, so you don't. There's "thinking outside the box," and there's proposing an idea that doesn't work. They're not the same. Of course they are, stop derailing the thread. I didn't say she definitely did not die from pregnancy complications, only that the term can possibly mean something different, especially from an author who likes to be ambiguous. And also I got the idea of Lyanna having time for two pregnancies from you, so thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I love alternate theories, so I'll think along... Lyanna was missing for about... 15 months to two years, according to differing estimates on this board, so yes, presumably she could have had a baby at around the same age as "Jon." I wouldn't discount it. I've often thought Lyanna had time for 2 pregnancies, one ending in miscarriage. And yes, there are other ways to die in a bed of blood other than childbirth complications... just ask Robert or Shae. How did you get to Lyanna missing 2 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flowers Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Honestly, I don't see using the series itself as source material with which to evaluate a theory constitutes "derailing a thread" but maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 How did you get to Lyanna missing 2 years? From several threads on this forum. I don't have them marked. But Apple said she could have been missing around 15 months. That's more than enough time for two pregnancies. So I guess the gist of this topic is how long Lyanna was missing... from her abduction to the ToJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Of course they are, stop derailing the thread. I didn't say she definitely did not die from pregnancy complications, only that the term can possibly mean something different, especially from an author who likes to be ambiguous. And also I got the idea of Lyanna having time for two pregnancies from you, so thanks for that. Except that he's not ambiguous when it comes to "bloody bed" and "bed of blood." Every time they are used, it is explicitly in reference to childbirth. That is the opposite of ambiguous. I have never, to my knowledge, suggested or said or implied that Lyanna had time for two pregnancies, unless I said it ages ago when I was less familiar with the material than I am now. I don't believe that. From several threads on this forum. I don't have them marked. But Apple said she could have been missing around 15 months. That's more than enough time for two pregnancies. So I guess the gist of this topic is how long Lyanna was missing... from her abduction to the ToJ. You do know that a full-term pregnancy is nine months, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Except that he's not ambiguous when it comes to "bloody bed" and "bed of blood." Every time they are used, it is explicitly in reference to childbirth. That is the opposite of ambiguous. I have never, to my knowledge, suggested or said or implied that Lyanna had time for two pregnancies, unless I said it ages ago when I was less familiar with the material than I am now. I don't believe that. You do know that a full-term pregnancy is nine months, right? Not to mention that it takes some time for the body to recover from delivery/miscarriage. I see we're at "bed of blood" again, so here go all the references to bed+blood, plus a couple more related, for a good measure: He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT) “Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …” “I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT) “The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT) Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. (Catelyn AGOT) Women birth children in blood and pain, and die. (Damphair in Theon, ACOK) That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 How about we agree on a time frame that Lyanna was missing. Because if it is 15 months, she had time to either have a miscarriage then have a live birth, or have a live birth, then have a miscarriage. And no! I had no idea a full-term pregnancy last 9 months! OH MY GOD! /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 How about we agree on a time frame that Lyanna was missing. Because if it is 15 months, she had time to either have a miscarriage then have a live birth, or have a live birth, then have a miscarriage. And no! I had no idea a full-term pregnancy last 9 months! OH MY GOD! /sarcasm The outcome of which would still be just the one surviving baby either way, so I'm not sure what implications this could possibly have. It's not like a miscarried baby is going to come out of the woodwork after a decade and a half and claim to be a secret Targ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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