Disney's Frozen

[1918me]

Fixer-upper was great too...for another movie. Listening to the song on it's own and its a fun ensemble melody. But in the movie it appears shoved in.

Yeah, I guess that's more what I mean; it felt kind of forced, and a bit awkward, given the context of the movie.

[Mr. E]

Yeah, I guess that's more what I mean; it felt kind of forced, and a bit awkward, given the context of the movie.

The film doesn't even have a song in its last third or so...Fixer-upper feels oddly like someone going "Oh God! If we don't put another song in this musical won't have a musical number for half its running time!"

[Kalbear]

What does she hate about it?

Hoo boy, let's see.

• The typical aspect of Disney feminine beauty she is pretty bothered by - especially since Anna and Elsa are so physically identical while every male in the movie has massively different body types and characteristics. That's sort of a standard, but the Tangled aesthetic is especially bad. Talked more about this here. Compare this to Wreck It Ralph, which did a way better job of this.
  
• Elsa's dress during the Let It Go part. Because apparently you can either do precisely what everyone wants you to do, or you can dress super slutty. Those are your only choices. ( I kinda disagree with her on this; I think it's okay that a woman dresses sexily, even when alone, if that's what she chooses to do. But I agree that it's not a great message and goes with the typical 'evil girl = slutty girl' thing.
  
• Elsa's message. It sucks to have to do what everyone tells you to do! But if you don't - if you want to be left alone and tell people that, BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN. Remember, it's totally okay to ignore a woman who says 'leave me alone' and 'no' a lot. In the end, that's not what she really wants, and you know better than her what she really wants.
  
• Anna's deal with the guy. Sorry, Elsa, I know that it's been 10 years and we just saved the world with our love, but this hot guy needs to be thanked.
  
• The reaction of everyone else in the real world that Frozen is so awesome for turning things on their heads and not doing the Disney Princess standard of True Love. Okay, that's great. It is slightly less problematic in that one way. It is not a bastion of feminist value. It still has massive problems with woman's ability to make decisions, make the right decisions (it's awesome how every single thing Anna and Elsa do are mistakes, and they're only saved by the power of True Love, right?), their appearance, the respect of others for their choices, their cookie-cutter views and character (especially compared to the men and the comic relief), and the gushing over Disney changing their views just a little bit. This, more than anything, is what makes her go into full-on rage, and it's hot as hell to see. It's her version of Someone Is Wrong On The Internet, and it's incredible.
  

[Mr. E]

• (it's awesome how every single thing Anna and Elsa do are mistakes, and they're only saved by the power of True Love, right?),

They're saved by their love for each other, yes....I think this is rather beautiful, considering human life, especially at that age is basically a litany of mistakes. That being said...everything Anna and Elsa does is a mistake? I don't think Anna trying to talk to her sister was a mistake, nor was Elsa's disagreeing with Anna's sudden engagement.

[Kalbear]

Anna trying to talk with her sister results in her almost being killed and causing the kingdom to fail. It also is ignoring exactly what Elsa said she wanted. That was kind of a huge mistake.

Elsa's disagreeing with Anna's sudden engagement is fine. But it's not an action, it's just an argument. It results in what, nothing? And Anna doubling down on how awesome he is.

[Datepalm]

• The typical aspect of Disney feminine beauty she is pretty bothered by - especially since Anna and Elsa are so physically identical while every male in the movie has massively different body types and characteristics. That's sort of a standard, but the Tangled aesthetic is especially bad. Talked more about this here. Compare this to Wreck It Ralph, which did a way better job of this.

• Elsa's dress during the Let It Go part. Because apparently you can either do precisely what everyone wants you to do, or you can dress super slutty. Those are your only choices. ( I kinda disagree with her on this; I think it's okay that a woman dresses sexily, even when alone, if that's what she chooses to do. But I agree that it's not a great message and goes with the typical 'evil girl = slutty girl' thing.

My sister called out the female character designs for particular pain as well. If it helps, she had even more vitriol for (of all things, given that that's my usual thing) the landscapes - generic, half-formed, thoughtlessly european but lacking in any details or personality to make them interesting.

I was bothered by the sexy dress thing too, actually - not because sexy dresses are in and of themselves a bad thing, but because sexing it up was an aspect of this kind of liberation/coming into herself for Elsa, when there had been no sign previously that that was any kind of vector of her issues and repressions - isolation, sure. Emotional withdrawal, regimentation, a weight of responsibility, etc...but not sexuality. And she has no romantic plot at all in the movie that that would even be speaking to. It was sexy-dress-time...just because.

[emberling]

Elsa's message. It sucks to have to do what everyone tells you to do! But if you don't - if you want to be left alone and tell people that, BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN. Remember, it's totally okay to ignore a woman who says 'leave me alone' and 'no' a lot. In the end, that's not what she really wants, and you know better than her what she really wants.

This is an ... interesting take. I don't know, what I love about the film (or more specifically, Elsa's arc) is that it has so many metaphorical facets, that you can view it as a whole, or parts of it in isolation, as any number of different real situations and it has something meaningful to say about each one.

If Elsa is gay, for instance (metaphorically speaking), her lesson is that she doesn't have to hide--not from herself, but also not from the world (and certainly not from the member of her family who never, ever judged her). Anna's story here shows that however cold an estranged family member may seem, there is still hope.

If Elsa is depressed, then Anna's persistence represents the best thing a loved one can possibly do: remind them that they are loved, that there is a place for them, that it's never too late to remember that there is warmth in the world. No matter how cold it may seem--it just takes a twist of perspective, the acceptance that happiness is possible. Much easier said than done, but much easier done with a friend than alone. No matter how many times that friend is told to go away, she comes back. (Anna is not that persistent--the freezing of her heart probably represents giving up on Elsa ever returning to her.)

Let's not forget that on the surface level--completely avoiding any metaphorical content--Elsa leaves, and tells Anna to leave her alone, because she is afraid of hurting Anna. She doesn't leave seeking freedom; she is forced into solitude, then finds it unexpectedly freeing. And she is able to take that freedom with her when she returns home, in classic hero's journey fashion, because it truly came not from solitude but from lack of fear.

Or:

Act one: it sucks to do what other people tell you to do!

Act two: So I will quit other people entirely, because some of them sometimes tell me what to do. (Not, note, because of an innate distaste for being around people; inferring this from A1 is a non sequitur.)

Act three: Oh, wait, most other people actually don't tell me what to do and are cool with what I want to do. Only some of them are nasty, and they can be dealt with without freezing out the rest of the world.

It's really hard for me to see it as a skeevy "no means no" situation. If Anna were male, it could be bad. If she were potentially romantically interested in Elsa, it could be bad. But those potential power imbalances are explicitly not there.

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm kinda oblivious, because while attractive in it's way, I didn't think Elsa's change in appearance was deliberately "sexing it up"...

I look at the story, watching it as I type this in fact (again), and every time I think about what wretched parents the king and queen were with overreacting, blaming, and avoiding what was going on...

[karaddin]

I find it works better thematically for me when I go with Elsa as gay as well (yeah I know this is self serving of me, I'm really craving representation lately). Let It Go becomes a magnificent coming out song in that context, the dress then isn't purely sexing it up but is actually symbolic of acceptance of her sexuality. I've also gotta say while the ice dress is a sexy and more revealing dress, I found the one she was wearing before that really pretty and sexy as well. I will confess that I found the ridiculous level of hip sway during Let It Go after the dress change bothered me when watching it though.

Your wifes point about how Elsa and Anna look so much alike is spot on though, I went into watching Frozen with a negative attitude because I had seen comments from the animators (I think that's who it was) whining about how hard it is to make women look different. And then there was that fucking awful Micky Mouse short at the start, THAT was the most awful sexist garbage in the movie.

Annoyance at the praise for it is also understandable.

[Seventh Pup]

Well Ana and Elsa are sisters. So the fact that they look very similar was not really an issue for me. The fact that they looked very similar to Rapunzel was more of an issue.

[Jaxom 1974]

Well Ana and Elsa are sisters. So the fact that they look very similar was not really an issue for me. The fact that they looked very similar to Rapunzel was more of an issue.

Ah, but don'tyou know that the reason Rapunzel and Flynn have their cameo is because they were visiting a sister kingdom? That it's likely that when Elsa and Anna's parents went down on that ship, they were sailing to visit Rapunzel's parents and/or attend her wedding...

[Kalbear]

If Elsa is gay, for instance (metaphorically speaking), her lesson is that she doesn't have to hide--not from herself, but also not from the world (and certainly not from the member of her family who never, ever judged her). Anna's story here shows that however cold an estranged family member may seem, there is still hope.

If Elsa is depressed, then Anna's persistence represents the best thing a loved one can possibly do: remind them that they are loved, that there is a place for them, that it's never too late to remember that there is warmth in the world. No matter how cold it may seem--it just takes a twist of perspective, the acceptance that happiness is possible. Much easier said than done, but much easier done with a friend than alone. No matter how many times that friend is told to go away, she comes back. (Anna is not that persistent--the freezing of her heart probably represents giving up on Elsa ever returning to her.)

And if Elsa is an introvert, Anna's pursuit is really fucking annoying and causes panic attacks.

In both of the cases above you're still not respecting their wishes. You're still not listening. You're still saying that what their decision is, doesn't matter. It's all about your wants.

Also, sometimes the best thing that a loved one can do when someone is depressed is leave them the hell alone. Depression isn't about a fucking change in perspective. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Clinical depression isn't about acceptance of happiness or thinking that happiness is there if you just let yourself see it. Fuck, now I'm really angry. That's an even worse interpretation than the no means yes one.

Ultimately, no matter how much good you think you're doing by not respecting another person's wishes, you're not respecting another person's wishes. You are choosing to completely ignore what they've said they want in favor of whatever it is you think is best. You're not having a conversation. You're not even having an argument. You're ignoring them completely. I don't see in any of the scenarios how this is a good message to send, ever.

[1918me]

And if Elsa is an introvert, Anna's pursuit is really fucking annoying and causes panic attacks.

In both of the cases above you're still not respecting their wishes. You're still not listening. You're still saying that what their decision is, doesn't matter. It's all about your wants.

Also, sometimes the best thing that a loved one can do when someone is depressed is leave them the hell alone. Depression isn't about a fucking change in perspective. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Clinical depression isn't about acceptance of happiness or thinking that happiness is there if you just let yourself see it. Fuck, now I'm really angry. That's an even worse interpretation than the no means yes one.

Ultimately, no matter how much good you think you're doing by not respecting another person's wishes, you're not respecting another person's wishes. You are choosing to completely ignore what they've said they want in favor of whatever it is you think is best. You're not having a conversation. You're not even having an argument. You're ignoring them completely. I don't see in any of the scenarios how this is a good message to send, ever.

:bowdown:

I came into this thread just moderately uncomfortable with what I saw as Frozen's more sexist elements, but I leave with a level of vehemence and anger that I never saw thought possible. You've opened my eyes.

[emberling]

And if Elsa is an introvert, Anna's pursuit is really fucking annoying and causes panic attacks.

She is an introvert. Actually, not metaphorically. She's reluctant to play with Anna, she's terrified of opening the gates, she's never shown talking with people at the parties they show. I find it unconvincing that she would be portrayed as a fairly typical introvert while also being primarily a metaphor for an extreme introvert unable to function in society. What does frozen Arendelle represent in this scenario?

Also, sometimes the best thing that a loved one can do when someone is depressed is leave them the hell alone. Depression isn't about a fucking change in perspective. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Clinical depression isn't about acceptance of happiness or thinking that happiness is there if you just let yourself see it. Fuck, now I'm really angry. That's an even worse interpretation than the no means yes one.

Look, I don't know you that well or your experience with depression but you sound like you're parroting a depression for dummies brochure without understanding it at all. No shit it's a chemical imbalance in my brain. And the brain is a glob of meat in my head. Those are the physical characteristics. Consciousness is also a lived experience and so is depression. And what it's like - what it's like for me, I should say, but this shouldn't be too unusual - is just a darkness to everything, a lack of hope. There's no reason to do anything because it's all the same. You're getting all the usual sensory inputs but your interpretation of them is warped. (Because, yes, the chemicals.) You just ... freeze, your whole world freezes and you feel like you can't belong anywhere, that a slight from one person is a slight from everyone, that anything bright is just a feeble candle in the wind unless it's an oncoming freight train. And when you run away from everything, when you freeze out the world so it can't touch you -- you make it all true, and you blame yourself for it, and it just gets worse from there, spiraling downward.

Alone time is really important: leave me the fuck alone so I can cry for an hour, or spend a day recovering from stress. Not the same as cutting all ties and fucking off forever. People sticking around and reminding me of the need to take showers and occasionally go outdoors won't cure my depression, or bring me up to a functional level. But when I'm ready to get better, I'll have a light to follow, a ladder to climb, instead of being stuck at the bottom of a pit. And sometimes you get that massive perspective shift. I've had it ... at least two or three times? You see one little thing, something that makes you question some assumption you've made about the world - and suddenly the entire world that was frozen thaws. It's a truly amazing feeling.

Ultimately, no matter how much good you think you're doing by not respecting another person's wishes, you're not respecting another person's wishes. You are choosing to completely ignore what they've said they want in favor of whatever it is you think is best. You're not having a conversation. You're not even having an argument. You're ignoring them completely. I don't see in any of the scenarios how this is a good message to send, ever.

This would make a lot more sense to me, again, if Anna were on the high end of a power imbalance. If Anna had the power to make Elsa do anything, then forcing her to come home would have sent a bad message.

What's confusing me about this is that Elsa doesn't make it clear what she wants! She doesn't say anything about being left alone. She just says "Enough!" and runs - apparently terrified of her own power and fleeing the people who reacted to it. She doesn't tell Anna to leave her alone until they meet in the ice palace. During that meeting, Anna does a poor job at listening to Elsa, somewhat as you describe but within the scale of one single argument. And it's...a resounding success that validates ignoring peoples' wishes? No. It's a complete failure that sends Elsa a bit further down the spiral while Anna's heart freezes. After her heart starts to freeze, Anna doesn't even talk about going back to Elsa, and admits that she was wrong about Elsa being unable to hurt her. When they reunite it's by coincidence/contrivance.

So what we have is that the kind of long-term harassment that you seem to be talking about doesn't seem to exist. And on the single argument scale, the one time it occurs it's shown as something to not do.

[horizon]

Omfg... she has a split in her dress and it is all about sexing it up.

You crazy puritan people.

har har har

[Kalbear]

[Look, I don't know you that well or your experience with depression but you sound like you're parroting a depression for dummies brochure without understanding it at all.

Oddly, I'd say entirely the same thing about your post. It speaks of massive ignorance about what the causes of depression are and hints at the sort of thoughts that people who haven't had depression usually say about it. "Oh, it'll go away!" "Can't you just be happy instead?" "You're choosing to do this to yourself". That sort of inane, ignorant bullshit. Sure - sometimes you can have an epiphany and snap out of it. Or sometimes it just makes it worse. Or sometimes it doesn't make it anything.

The point being is that those things are how you're feeling. You. Not them. You. Depression - real, clinical, scary suicidal ideation - isn't about the other. It's about you. And that means that other people intruding on it and not listening to your feelings and desires when you have the actual energy to voice them? That's bullshit. The last thing I want is the central message to be 'no matter what you're stating and what you want, someone else will decide that you're wrong and you can't have it'.

Some people run away from everything and fix themselves in some way. Or aren't dependent (or codependent) on someone else's feelings and desire in order to feel better. It's really cool and great to know that someone is there for you if you want them to be. It's really shitty to know that someone will be there for you when you explicitly state in no uncertain terms (and seriously, giant snow man is a fairly uncertain term) that you do not want them to be there. One of the worst things you can do as a loved one of a depressed person is completely ignore what they say and keep coming back over and over despite them saying no. Letting them know that you'll be there when they're cool with it? Sure, awesome. Letting them know that you're just going to keep putting pressure on them and showing up? Fucking horrible.

What's confusing me about this is that Elsa doesn't make it clear what she wants! She doesn't say anything about being left alone. She just says "Enough!" and runs - apparently terrified of her own power and fleeing the people who reacted to it. She doesn't tell Anna to leave her alone until they meet in the ice palace. During that meeting, Anna does a poor job at listening to Elsa, somewhat as you describe but within the scale of one single argument. And it's...a resounding success that validates ignoring peoples' wishes? No. It's a complete failure that sends Elsa a bit further down the spiral while Anna's heart freezes. After her heart starts to freeze, Anna doesn't even talk about going back to Elsa, and admits that she was wrong about Elsa being unable to hurt her. When they reunite it's by coincidence/contrivance

.It's not exactly just about Anna though. Everyone does it. And it's made pretty clear that Elsa doesn't like hanging out with people. Including Anna - maybe especially her.

But yes - creating a giant snow monster and shooting razor sharp ice walls at people is somehow ambiguous to Anna. Maybe that's the problem - that everyone in Frozen is about as completely stupid as can be. They're not willfully ignoring Elsa's obvious wishes - the person who hid herself away for 10 years. No, they're just oblivious. They just figure that Elsa will snap out of it. Or maybe if they show enough happiness, Elsa will eventually deal.

Bah.

[karaddin]

Oh I forgot to say in the last post, I hated fixer-upper - I loathe that term when applied to a person in a romantic context and I don't like seeing it framed as a romantic thing, rather than a horrible thing. If it had purely been about accepting the flaws and seeing the beauty of the person then that would be fine, but throwing that term in there undermines any value it might have for that purpose and makes it about improving the other person rather than accepting the flaws. A person isn't a project.

[Datepalm]

Also, apparently he was kidnapped as a child and raised by rocks? Or something? This could be like the deathly grim Hunchback of Notre Dame or Beauty and Beast subtexts where only Quasi Modo/Belle see the magic gargoyles/cutlery and it's actually just them losing their minds.

[Lord of Rhinos]

Huh? Let It Go is the high point of the movie and isn't in anyway saying evil girl=sexy girl. Pretty much everyone who watches that scene is on Elsa's side.

Double huh? You did catch the part where Elsa brought on an artificial winter in the middle of summer? I mean I understand if your trying to read the story as some sort of specific metaphor but I think Hans and Anna coming after Elsa is to bound up in plot logic to be transposed to other situations easily.

Triple huh? There's clearly a time lapse between Elsa and Anna's reunion and Anna later presenting Kristof with his new sled.

ETA: apparently I need to learn how to use the quote function better.

[Kalbear]

Huh? Let It Go is the high point of the movie and isn't in anyway saying evil girl=sexy girl. Pretty much everyone who watches that scene is on Elsa's side.

They're on Elsa's side while she's creating a storm that's destroying her kingdom? Interesting. Note the dichotomy between Elsa and Anna - how Elsa becomes the bad girl, the one who doesn't do what she's told - and she is the one who is sexed up. Anna stays true to the path, and despite being the one who apparently is absurdly boy crazy and wanting to be with someone since, like, forever, is the modest, hair in braids gal.

Double huh? You did catch the part where Elsa brought on an artificial winter in the middle of summer? I mean I understand if your trying to read the story as some sort of specific metaphor but I think Hans and Anna coming after Elsa is to bound up in plot logic to be transposed to other situations easily.

She did that because she wanted to be left alone and no one listened to her. And she had a really good reason to not want to be alone - she had this fairly amazing and dangerous power and didn't want to hurt anyone. So they didn't listen...and she hurt people.