Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Gaston de Foix]

I can't recall exactly where its noted, but Kellhus's bloodline has Non-men blood. It seems that something is keeping the breeding problem at Ishual from degenerating into a mash-up of genetic abnormalities.

Interesting. I was under the impression that Nonmen and humans could not successfully mate- Akka tells a story of the death of some Emwama woman who became pregnant with Ginyursis' child but never to term doesn't he?

The identification, abduction/coercion of a Nonman (maybe more) to save the Ishual bloodlines seems a very difficult undertaking...

[Castel]

And it's USELESS, since he doesn't get that twitter is about interaction, while he uses just to broadcast aphorisms.

I've never seen him replying to anything, ever.

Interaction? Barely. Twitter is a foghorn, useful for blasting out the product you're selling -often yourself- Bakker is just selling EAMD which...is apparently not compelling :smoking:

[lokisnow]

Interesting. I was under the impression that Nonmen and humans could not successfully mate- Akka tells a story of the death of some Emwama woman who became pregnant with Ginyursis' child but never to term doesn't he?

The identification, abduction/coercion of a Nonman (maybe more) to save the Ishual bloodlines seems a very difficult undertaking...

The rape of Omindalea Anasurimbor by the nonman Jiricet resulted in the ending of the nonmen tutelage in the umeri empire when all the nonmen were expelled. Omindalea gave birth to a male hybrid, named anasurimbor "two heart" Sanna Jephera. Thereafter, most anasurimbors were like Aragorn and lived about double a normal lifespan (150-180 years).

a few thousand years before that, the human Sirwatta impregnated a nonmale female, who gave birth to a daughter hybrid, Cimoira, whose mannish heritage was covered up by the nonmen.

[Sci-2]

Interaction? Barely. Twitter is a foghorn, useful for blasting out the product you're selling -often yourself- Bakker is just selling EAMD which...is apparently not compelling :smoking:

I think for a lot of people it comes off as weird. But then I think it gets so little notice it doesn't negatively effect things.

Whether there's an opportunity cost is another question.

[Rhom]

The rape of Omindalea Anasurimbor by the nonman Jiricet resulted in the ending of the nonmen tutelage in the umeri empire when all the nonmen were expelled. Omindalea gave birth to a male hybrid, named anasurimbor "two heart" Sanna Jephera. Thereafter, most anasurimbors were like Aragorn and lived about double a normal lifespan (150-180 years).

a few thousand years before that, the human Sirwatta impregnated a nonmale female, who gave birth to a daughter hybrid, Cimoira, whose mannish heritage was covered up by the nonmen.

Is that from the appendix to TTT?

[Francis Buck]

Is that from the appendix to TTT?

I believe it was supposed to be from the glossary, but was cut for some reason. I think Bakker posted the cut entries on the web a few years back.

Anyways, I read Neuropath. It was...weird. Parts were interesting. Bakker is good at capturing some of those "little moments" of life, I think. The sort of stuff everyone experiences but you don't really see depicted in a lot of ficion. This made both Neuropath and DotD quite readable. That being said, I think they both suffered from structural issues, weak endings, and just some weird shit that felt really out-of-left-field. Some of the scenes were effectively creepy, but it definitely felt lke I was being hit over the head again and again with the explanation of the argument. I also thought it went almost totally off the rails when they get to the cabin and the big twist happens. The car chase with the gay dude was almost comically silly and felt incredibly out of place, and the ending felt...I don't know, not very satisfying. While I actually more or less agree with Bakker's concept of the mind, I find the idea that this will somehow lead to the downfall of civilization a little ridiculous, so that makes the whole premise a bit harder for me to swallow.

In short, neither of Bakker's two non-TSA books came anywhere close to TSA in my opinion. They're just not as well written, in particular the plots seem much weaker than any individual installment in the TSA series. I don't know why this is, maybe he's just more naturally inclined towards fantasy or something.

[Kalbear]

I think it's how he writes stories - which is that he comes up with the premise and has everything follow said premise. THat works great in fantasy where how people react to the coming of an apocalypse is both alien and terrifying. It doesn't work so well when you're talking about a lot more mundane events that can easily be sympathized with and understood.

And even then, a lot of folks have mentioned the difficulties they have with sympathizing with the main character's actions and how odd they are - how Esme doesn't feel like a real person, or how odd Akka behaves, or Bakker's difficulties showing us Esme's intelligence or Kellhus' dominance. Setting and cool special effects make up for a lot of that in a fantasy.

[Gaston de Foix]

The rape of Omindalea Anasurimbor by the nonman Jiricet resulted in the ending of the nonmen tutelage in the umeri empire when all the nonmen were expelled. Omindalea gave birth to a male hybrid, named anasurimbor "two heart" Sanna Jephera. Thereafter, most anasurimbors were like Aragorn and lived about double a normal lifespan (150-180 years).

a few thousand years before that, the human Sirwatta impregnated a nonmale female, who gave birth to a daughter hybrid, Cimoira, whose mannish heritage was covered up by the nonmen.

so the Dunyain have Nonman blood through Anasurimbor. Where do we get the information that the Dunyain used Nonmen for breeding purposes. Have I misunderstood something?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

You've misunderstood something. The Nonmen blood is presumably only in the Anasurimbor bloodline, not all Dunyain.

[Anatúrinbor]

I can't recall exactly where its noted, but Kellhus's bloodline has Non-men blood. It seems that something is keeping the breeding problem at Ishual from degenerating into a mash-up of genetic abnormalities.

The reason I say this is despite the presence of defectives we see no indication that Kellhus feels a strong need to prepare Esmi or his followers for the potential disabilities of his offspring.

Shouldn't having Nonman blood make it even more likely that Kellhus's offspring will have birth defects?

[Sci-2]

You've misunderstood something. The Nonmen blood is presumably only in the Anasurimbor bloodline, not all Dunyain.

I don't think there's any Dunyain who don't have Anasurimbor blood. I mean, a thousand years of breeding for the best would probably ensure that?

[Gaston de Foix]

so then every Dunyain is an Anasurimbor? Not just Moenghus and Kellhus....

Crackpot: a Dunyain escaped from the Consult hit squad at Ishual and is the actual fullfilling of the Celmomanian prophecy.

[Sci-2]

I hope something like this is true. One of my biggest worries is that we won't see any more Dunyain in the series.

Too much of a good thing makes it a bad thing.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think the quote is "too much of a good thing is wonderful"....

[Gaston de Foix]

We'll see. But for what a huge role the Dunyain play in the story, I think it would be a bummer of Kellhus and Moenhus were the only true Dunyain that we ever saw (but for the brief flashbacks to some of the Pragma).

Why are you discounting the role that Inrilatus, Maithanet, Kayutus, and Serwe etc play?

[Kalbear]

I don't think we will see anything about them. They'd be far too disruptive to the other plots.

[Sci-2]

We'll see. But for what a huge role the Dunyain play in the story, I think it would be a bummer of Kellhus and Moenhus were the only true Dunyain that we ever saw (but for the brief flashbacks to some of the Pragma).

What more could a new Dunyain offer the story? I just see a rehash of Kellhus. Even a female Dunyain would be uninteresting IMO.

I don't think we will see anything about them. They'd be far too disruptive to the other plots.

+1.

[Gaston de Foix]

What more could a new Dunyain offer the story? I just see a rehash of Kellhus. Even a female Dunyain would be uninteresting IMO.

+1.

well in a reductive way, whether they would tread the path of Kellhus or Moenghus. Whether they would become more than Dunyain (or at least convinced they are more than Dunyain) or whether Kellhus has succumbed to a madness peculiar to him.

Also a female prophet would be an interesting salvo in the misogny wars surely? A Joan of Arc like figure, possibly...

[Sci-2]

Also a female prophet would be an interesting salvo in the misogny wars surely? A Joan of Arc like figure, possibly...

Not gonna happen in TUC. If the final part takes place decades/centuries from the end of TUC it might be interesting though it's hard not to see this just being a mash-up of Esmi and Kellhus's arcs.

[Kalbear]

I don't think we will see that either, because it's a lot easier for Bakker to show the final product (which he kind of understands ) than show how to produce it (which he has no idea about).