Who do you like more? Sansa or Arya?

[toffeejay]

Sansa has gotten progressively better, and Arya has gotten progressively more annoying, since the start of the series, IMO. At this point, I like Sansa much, much more than Arya, though until the final act of ASOS, I'd prefer Arya

I agree.

Its like with Arya, her story becomes ridiculously contrived and all with the whole faceless men business.

Sums it up for me.

Loved Arya for the first 3, but since its Sansa.

[butterbumps!]

This is a waste of breath - the Sansa apologists will never acknowledge what she did. Just as they ignore her complete lack of concern for Arya - and the dreadful way she treated Jane and that she was still sucking up and trying to please Cersei.

She went behind Ned's back (call it "betrayal" if you'd like), but wasn't looking to achieve a negative outcome for him or her family. That's what the issue is, and these "Sansa apologists" are taking issue with treating that situation like a conscious decision she made to have him arrested or executed. Her action came with detrimental consequence, but it's not as though she sought to cause his downfall; she did this because she thought there was a misunderstanding between him and Cersei that could be easily cleared up by her appeal.

It's also noteworthy that when this leads to a negative outcome, she takes it upon herself to make 2 more appeals (at the Small Council and then in court) to preserve her father's life. When that fails, she becomes suicidal, and even attempts to murder Joffrey for this.

One reason I personally take issue when the "betrayal" is brought up as a fundamentally condemning thing is because of what it's really implying. The idea that one must remain absolutely loyal to their family, and that questioning any of their actions is a bad thing, is a flawed concept; obviously in this case, Ned was the good guy, Cersei was the bad guy, but the fact that she questioned her father is not a bad thing in and of itself; it means she doesn't take everything at face value.

I know right. She annoys me so much.

In AFFC her storyline DOES become interesting, yes, but this wasn't because of her. She's still a stupid little girl without a brain.

Yes, so stupid that the only people who realized that the situation created by Marg's marriage to Joffrey with Loras in the Kingsguard would lead to Kingslayer 2.0 and war between Tyrell and Lannister were LF, Olenna and Sansa.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Bran is ze best.

:agree:

[Cas Stark]

The issue with Sansa though, and I know the apologist answer, but, is WHY, at this point...she was right there in the room when Cerscei ordered her wolf killed, yet she blames her father, she knows that Joff lied about the entire Mycah incident, I can't remember, but wasn't the Jamie incident also before she goes to the queen?

So, all of this happens, and yet, due to unfathomable stupidity, she fails to see that the queen cannot be trusted, fails to see that Joff is a coward and a liar, and chooses to betray her own father and go to the queen, who killed her wolf, in order that she can stay and marry Joff, the liar and the coward.

And all of this is supposed to be because she's just a young girl, even though her EVEN YOUNGER sister has the queen's number already and has had since the incident. IMO

[Sansa_Stark]

She went behind Ned's back (call it "betrayal" if you'd like), but wasn't looking to achieve a negative outcome for him or her family. That's what the issue is, and these "Sansa apologists" are taking issue with treating that situation like a conscious decision she made to have him arrested or executed. Her action came with detrimental consequence, but it's not as though she sought to cause his downfall; she did this because she thought there was a misunderstanding between him and Cersei that could be easily cleared up by her appeal.

It's also noteworthy that when this leads to a negative outcome, she takes it upon herself to make 2 more appeals (at the Small Council and then in court) to preserve her father's life. When that fails, she becomes suicidal, and even attempts to murder Joffrey for this.

One reason I personally take issue when the "betrayal" is brought up as a fundamentally condemning thing is because of what it's really implying. The idea that one must remain absolutely loyal to their family, and that questioning any of their actions is a bad thing, is a flawed concept; obviously in this case, Ned was the good guy, Cersei was the bad guy, but the fact that she questioned her father is not a bad thing in and of itself; it means she doesn't take everything at face value.

Yes, so stupid that the only people who realized that the situation created by Marg's marriage to Joffrey with Loras in the Kingsguard would lead to Kingslayer 2.0 and war between Tyrell and Lannister were LF, Olenna and Sansa.

You sure about that?

We don't know what the likes of Varys, LF and Tywin actually thought or realized and thus its not fair to say those two are the only people who thought that.

[lostcause]

The issue with Sansa though, and I know the apologist answer, but, is WHY, at this point...she was right there in the room when Cerscei ordered her wolf killed, yet she blames her father, she knows that Joff lied about the entire Mycah incident, I can't remember, but wasn't the Jamie incident also before she goes to the queen?

So, all of this happens, and yet, due to unfathomable stupidity, she fails to see that the queen cannot be trusted, fails to see that Joff is a coward and a liar, and chooses to betray her own father and go to the queen, who killed her wolf, in order that she can stay and marry Joff, the liar and the coward.

And all of this is supposed to be because she's just a young girl, even though her EVEN YOUNGER sister has the queen's number already and has had since the incident. IMO

There is no doubt that Arya is a better reader of people than Sansa.

As for the above, it was a selfish decision. She knew what you point out, but we've all been there when we were pre-teen/teens. We think 2 inches beyond our nose in certain situations and no more. This is what Sansa did here, she wanted that life in the court being a princess. It was withiin reach, or so shhe firmly believed and she paid the highest price possible.

Is she stupid? Well she isn't unintelligent, but she is/was very naive and spoiled. That's a rough combo to break, though Joff and Co (and now LF) has slowly done so.

[ARYa_Nym]

I can't remember, but wasn't the Jamie incident also before she goes to the queen?

“Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting…I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

The beginning of the chapter:

"Not his leg, " Sansa said...."Father's leg, silly. It hurts him ever so much, it makes hm cross. Otherwise I'm certain he would have sent Ser Loras."

[intheswamp]

I like Arya as a character better. I've always felt that GRRM struggled characterizing the lady-like characters and has a habit of making them seem stupid. He likes his tomboys. But, as of Feast/Dance, Sansa's plot has more potential for me. I find Arya's whole ninja assassin arc to be lame.

[TalalOfDorne]

I like both, but I prefer Sansa.

And Aryas chapters in Braavos are wonderful.

[ambi76]

Sansa. She is hearteningly realistic. Always love the folks who are all: "But I don't want realistic ... I want badass tomboys and dragons!" Yeah, those are really lacking in fantasy fare. :rolleyes:

[butterbumps!]

The issue with Sansa though, and I know the apologist answer, but, is WHY, at this point...she was right there in the room when Cerscei ordered her wolf killed, yet she blames her father, she knows that Joff lied about the entire Mycah incident, I can't remember, but wasn't the Jamie incident also before she goes to the queen?

So, all of this happens, and yet, due to unfathomable stupidity, she fails to see that the queen cannot be trusted, fails to see that Joff is a coward and a liar, and chooses to betray her own father and go to the queen, who killed her wolf, in order that she can stay and marry Joff, the liar and the coward.

And all of this is supposed to be because she's just a young girl, even though her EVEN YOUNGER sister has the queen's number already and has had since the incident. IMO

I'm not sure what the standard apologist answer is, but the real issue I take with condemning her unilaterally for the points you raise is that she undergoes a cataclysmic change the moment Ned's beheaded. So from her last a GoT chapter to present, we see someone who's got a much different view of the world than we have in those previous chapters, which, I agree, do not present Sansa in the most sympathetic or positive light. But I think it's utterly unfair to reject the person Sansa's becoming due to these first impressions.

I'm not so certain the fact that Arya hates Cersei and Joff is simply because she's more observant or less stupid than Sansa. Rather, it's that Arya doesn't really belong to or want to belong to their world-- she's rebelling against sitting like a lady and doing embroidery as much as legitimately based hatred for these terrible people.

But I'd also like to point out that it's not merely because Sansa's a young girl that she gets "excused" for her mindset. I don't "excuse" the mindset so much as think of the modern parallel. I think we get caught up in the specifics of Westerosi path to female success-- being good at "feminine arts," courtesy, a good marriage-- and look at them negatively, without realizing that Sansa starts all of this off as an over-achiever, and that it's not unlike the way a lot of us strive to become trained at the best institutions we can in order to land prestigious careers. Becoming queen through impeccable application of training is the highest thing a woman can achieve; it's not tremendously far from the concept of some of us believing that overachieving in school will get us into an Ivy League, which will get us to a place that will turn us into CEOs or whatever prestigious position you prefer.

So to continue the parallel, when Ned says she's not to marry Joff and will return, it strikes me similar to a modern teen being awarded a full scholarship to the most prestigious school in the country, but being told by their parents that they have to go to a bottom-tier school in their hometown. A crushing disappointment I think most of us would sympathize with a bit when you look at the abstracted parallels.

With that said, though, I don't believe as readers we should necessarily support the given gender roles we see (i.e. I think we can safely reject marriage to a king as being some objectively good career goal). I mean, I think it's important to liken the abstract concepts of overachievement in the norms of one's society for self-betterment, but simultaneously criticize the norms where applicable.

[ambi76]

As for why Sansa trusts them (Joff and Cersei) again after they were so horrible on the Kingsroad, I always think this was because for fairytale-loving Sansa a narrative unfolded with them first being mean and then apologizing profundly and kissing her and giving her gifts to get back in her good graces. A hefty dose of denial was involved too (and maybe even some stubborn-ness, that she couldn't have been that wrong about her pretty prince and the beautiful queen).

[Cas Stark]

Arya is far more observant and a better judge of character than her sister, even to the end of the last book. Whether this is a result in general of her outsider mindset v. Sansa's embracing of her gender role or just one of her abilities is debatable.

Sansa is still trying to please whomever. She is still extremely passive. She is still about going with the flow rather than creating her own opportunities.

That's fine as far as it goes, it's a survival tactic that suits her skills and her personality, so far I don't find it particularly admirable. We see her go out of her way to help someone else only the one time really, for Dontos. Whereas her sister again and again risks herself to help other people. Again and again she takes action, often foolish action, to change her circumstances.

[ambi76]

Re Arya:

Again and again she takes action, often foolish action, to change her circumstances.

Plotarmor be praised! (Arya like Tyrion should be dead thrice over by now).

ETA: Don't know why people are obsessed with comparing the sisters, cause they're IMHO totally incomparable.

[FloridaAg]

Listen - I think Sansa's growth is very interesting. She is a different character in many ways by the time of ADWD- - However, ignoring her faults in AGOT is revisionary. She valued her romantic dreams (which were stupid by that time as she had more than sufficient evidence to show her folly) over her family even though it was clear that danger was everywhere. Frankly, she was spoiled, treated Jon poorly and was the favored daughter of Catelyn because of her superficial femininity.

She improves after Ned's behearing and in ACOK, but it takes quite a while for her to start acting less stupidly and ultimately come into her own

[Cas Stark]

LOL, much as I love her character, I have to agree, GRRM put Arya through a few too many adventures with the only things really happening to her were a couple of beatings.

I'm still not convinced that Sansa has made as much progress as her fans think she has, she will undoubtedly be LFs downfall, but that's going to be on him, because he's breaking his fundamental rule of giving away the game to someone else, it's not going to be about Sansa but about LF having literally given her the ammunition himself due to his blindspot about her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sansa. She is hearteningly realistic. Always love the folks who are all: "But I don't want realistic ... I want badass tomboys and dragons!" Yeah, those are really lacking in fantasy fare. :rolleyes:

Arya fits the genre that the books are in. So do characters like Dany and Jon. GRRM really is not so different from other fantasy as the fandom likes to believe and there's nothing wrong with that. He doesn't need to be "not like those other authors" and his books don't need to be "too good to have anything in common with theirs."

[ambi76]

Never would I deny Sansa's naivete and foolishness in AGoT, what I'm saying is, that I lover her despite/because of that foolishness even more, which seems hard to swallow for most of her detractors.

ETA:

Arya fits the genre that the books are in. So do characters like Dany and Jon.

Oh absolutely, that's what I'm saying. With all those genre appropriate characters you would think one that is a little bit different, wouldn't hurt so much.

[butterbumps!]

Arya is far more observant and a better judge of character than her sister, even to the end of the last book. Whether this is a result in general of her outsider mindset v. Sansa's embracing of her gender role or just one of her abilities is debatable.

Sansa is still trying to please whomever. She is still extremely passive. She is still about going with the flow rather than creating her own opportunities.

That's fine as far as it goes, it's a survival tactic that suits her skills and her personality, so far I don't find it particularly admirable. We see her go out of her way to help someone else only the one time really, for Dontos. Whereas her sister again and again risks herself to help other people. Again and again she takes action, often foolish action, to change her circumstances.

I'm not picking on you, but I think some of your opinions might be misconceptions that are worth examining a bit.

I'm curious what you're thinking of in terms of how Arya is a consistently better judge of character than Sansa. I know in the beginning that Arya is strongly anti Lannister, but as I said above, I think much of that comes from her rejection of courtliness rather than some keen insight on reading people. Getting technical with this, it's actually Jon with the most accurate observations of them (with a few misconceptions, like his view of Myrcella as "vapid"), and Arya benefits from Jon relaying this to her in their conversation in the practice yard-- and unlike Sansa, she gets to witness Joffrey's malfeasance first hand there.

I see it brought up frequently that Arya is active while Sansa is passive. I think this is a misconception, though, influenced by Sansa's immobility as a prisoner and Arya's "adventuring." As Sansa critics notoriously point out, Sansa is taking action when she goes to Cersei about Ned. She also actively appeals for her father's life. She nearly kills Joffrey.

Sansa didn't have Syrio sacrificing himself to enable her escape, didn't have Yoren come and take her away, didn't have a Hot Pie or Gendry around, certainly didn't have Jaqen. This isn't to negate Arya's actions or cleverness, but to point out that Arya has had a considerable amount of help and allies that are absent to Sansa. I don't believe that the sisters are tremendously divergent in terms of being inherently more passive or active than the other.

Listen - I think Sansa's growth is very interesting. She is a different character in many ways by the time of ADWD- - However, ignoring her faults in AGOT is revisionary. She valued her romantic dreams (which were stupid by that time as she had more than sufficient evidence to show her folly) over her family even though it was clear that danger was everywhere. Frankly, she was spoiled, treated Jon poorly and was the favored daughter of Catelyn because of her superficial femininity.

She improves after Ned's behearing and in ACOK, but it takes quite a while for her to start acting less stupidly and ultimately come into her own

She never actually treated Jon poorly. I'm not sure where that idea comes from-- is there something you're thinking of? They both think fondly of each other.

I'm not sure Cat favored Sansa, honestly. I think Cat knew how to relate to Sansa better, but Cat's favored child is Bran, by her own admission. And Arya is a lot more like Cat, while Sansa takes after Ned.

I agree that Sansa was naive. The difference for me is that I view it similarly to the way a lot of students have the idea that if they get straight As and do everything right, they'll get into Harvard or something. As in, thinking straight As and the perfect combination of extra-curriculars are worth shit in the real world. Sansa persists in her attempts to win over Cersei and Joff because she thinks that with persistence and focus, she can pass the necessary "requirements" and succeed. Until she learns she can't.

I'm not sure if I agree that Sansa was spoiled, or spoiled more so than Arya. They catered to Arya's whims a lot more I think.

[Annara Snow]

Arya is far more observant and a better judge of character than her sister, even to the end of the last book. Whether this is a result in general of her outsider mindset v. Sansa's embracing of her gender role or just one of her abilities is debatable.

Is she? Or is it just that Arya tends to mistrust most people and think negatively of them as much as Sansa tends to mostly see the positive side? When was the last time Arya has had a completely positive view of someone or really trusted them without reservations? She even had trouble trusting Gendry.

To name just one example where she was not a good judge of character - she thought Sandor was going to take her to the Lannisters. Then she thought he was trying to kill her when he hit her with an axe. And she didn't seem to realize at any point that he really cared for Sansa, no matter how many time he mentioned her.