From Aegon’s birth until Lyanna’s death: How much time has passed?

[Ygrain]

What role do you believe the Isle of the Faces will have?

They married before the weirwood there :-)

There are also metatext reason to presume that the location will be of importance - it is the only weirwood in the south. Why have it there is the first place if it is not going to be used, now that we have learned about the weirnet? And, since it is so close to Harrenhall, it ties in with the pattern of repeating stories and motives that GRRM uses. Harrenhall plays an important role in Arya's, Jaime's and Brienne's arc, it is tied to the founding of Targaryen rule as well as to the beginning of R+L, That's an awfully loaded location.

Oh, BTW, Jaime has a scholar and that poor girl from HH in his entourage, right? Provided that he survives Lady Stoneheart, we might get a piece of information from over there - you know, a sort of HH popular legend about Lyanna's affair, which Arya never heard because she never developed any relationships with the HH smallfolk.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

They married before the weirwood there :-)

[...] the only weirwood in the south.

The only living and old weirwoods in the South that we know of. We know of stumps at High Heart and the dead one at Raventree Hall and I am at a loss if we heard of any new young weirwoods in the south maybe when Brienne was travelling the crown lands. Can't remember now. I remember the new one at the Nightfort halfhaertedly. There was one in the Godswood at Storms End before it got Melinsundered, maybe some more castles in the south keep one?

But the God's Eye has this name and it is right at the heart of the land, and there's a base of the little green men there and everything else. There'll be a museum with paintings of their wedding and the wedding gown in display, that's for sure.

[Ser Leftwich]

I am not entirely sure why it is assumed that Brandon was riding from Winterfell when he learned about Lyanna. Apart from his squire, he was accompanied by Jeffory Mallister, a Riverman and 2 Valemen: Kyle Royce and Elbert Arryn.

IMHO, it is far more likely that he was making a grand tour of Westeros or something along these lines, rather than that he returned to Winterfell and was coming back down from there.

I tend to agree.

There is a passage, I can't recall/find the full text, but I will paraphrase: Lord Rickard and Brandon went south with 50 (or 100) men, never to return.

From that, it is assumed to that they left together, but that seems weak, IMHO.

[MtnLion]

As you know, I have been nutcracking these things and pretty soon realized that named characters in the World of Ice and Fire fly faster than the ravens. To Martin, the battle of the Ruby ford, the Sack of King's landing, the lift of the siege at Storms end, Jon Snow's birth and the Skirmish at the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's death all seem to happen simultanuously :-)

I'm right there with you. I calculated travel times to the distances, but GRRM kept fooling me. Like a wheelhouse can travel from King's Landing to Winterfell in a month. What it eventually comes down to is if GRRM said it took this long, that is what it took. ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here is a good one for you. The night that Chelsted was roasted the queen had a visitor and Jaime and Jonothor Darry stood guard, and exchanged words. A fortnight later King's Landing is being sacked and Jaime kills the pyromancer Hand. During the time in between Jonothor Darry goes to his death at the Trident, and Ned hurries south, arriving nearly the same time as the sack. How many days travel for an army is it each direction between the Trident and King's Landing?

Hehe, nice find :) Hadn't thought about that one.

I think it's a mistake, or perhaps (since they are supposed to be unreliable POVs) Jaime is misremembering which night he heard it.

The Mace-and-Dagger Hand died and the Pyromancer Rossart took over, yet Rossart was only Hand for a fortnight. There was a fortnight between the Battle on the Trident and the Sack of KL. Yet Jon Darry was present at both, supposedly. Jon Darry died at the Trident, this we know for certain.

I guess Jaime is remembering another night, and mistakes it with the burning of Chelsted by mistake, which explains why Darry was still there. Rhaella didn't leave for Dragonstone until the news of the Trident reached them. It is very much possible that Aerys raped Rhaella when he had Chelsted burned - he became aroused when seeing men burn. But I guess Jaime is misremembering two different nights, combining them in his mind.

But you're making one mistake there.

Between the Trident and the Sack is a fortnight, not between Rhaegar/Jon Darry leaving KL and Ned arriving for the Sack.

So even though it is unknown how long the army takes to travel (though I'll calculate that for you once I have enoug time, perhaps later today), it's not within the fortnight between the Trident and the Sack :)

I am not entirely sure why it is assumed that Brandon was riding from Winterfell when he learned about Lyanna. Apart from his squire, he was accompanied by Jeffory Mallister, a Riverman and 2 Valemen: Kyle Royce and Elbert Arryn.

IMHO, it is far more likely that he was making a grand tour of Westeros or something along these lines, rather than that he returned to Winterfell and was coming back down from there.

Nor do I see him getting a messenger from Riverrun - Lord Hoster would have taken pains to be as diplomatic as possible and given the raven-post it was quicker to contact Lord Rickard first, anyway, than somebody who was on the move. Nor was it Brandon's decision how to respond, really, not as long as his father still lived.

No, IMHO Brandon either heard rumors or came across people who let Lyanna escape. Or even was contacted by Lyanna's messenger, whom he probably disregarded, if not killed outright, being "wild" and all. The whole "taken at a swordspoint" strongly reminds me of the lie Daeron the Drunken told his father Maekar when he didn't know where Egg vanished to while he was drinking himself senseless. Not that it is important for the topic of this thread.

Anyway, I am just saying that timing-wise, we can't assume that Brandon went to Winterfell between his telling Cat that he was leaving on an errand and hearing about Lyanna. For that matter, he may not have gone back home at all between the tourney of Harrenhal and his fateful dash to KL.

Well, I was assuming Brandon was riding from Winterfell, since after the announcement of his betrothal, he does once visits the Ryswells (he told Barbary Dustin on their last night together how he didn't want to marry Catelyn; since Petyr challanged Brandon when the marriage was announced, it happened after Brandon left; it could also be that this was why GRRM didn't want to comment on what Brandon went to do; IIRC, aDwD hadn't been released yet at that point).

As you know, I have been nutcracking these things and pretty soon realized that named characters in the World of Ice and Fire fly faster than the ravens. To Martin, the battle of the Ruby ford, the Sack of King's landing, the lift of the siege at Storms end, Jon Snow's birth and the Skirmish at the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's death all seem to happen simultanuously :-)

GRRM has commented (and written in the novels) that the Sack happened a fortnight after the battle at the Trident (the Battle of the Ruby Ford is the name of the last battle fought by Roose Bolton before he turns his cloak, and the goal of the battle was to bleed the Stark troops out as much as possible, btw :p )

GRRM knows the siege happened after the Sack. Ned and Robert argued about the consequences of the Sack, causing Ned to ride south. The skirmish at the ToJ and Lyanna's death happen at the same day indeed, and Jon's birth happens somewhere in between the Trident and Lyanna's death, no doubt.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I tend to agree.

There is a passage, I can't recall/find the full text, but I will paraphrase: Lord Rickard and Brandon went south with 50 (or 100) men, never to return.

From that, it is assumed to that they left together, but that seems weak, IMHO.

Perhaps you mean this part?

Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

Their grandfather, old Lord Rickard, had gone as well, with his son Brandon who was Father’s brother, and two hundred of his best men. None had ever returned. And Father had gone south, with Arya and Sansa, and Jory and Hullen and Fat Tom and the rest, and later Mother and Ser Rodrik had gone, and they hadn’t come back either.

This comes from Bran. Yet we know that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun, and went angrily to KL where he was arrested. That's when Rickard was ordered to come to KL. It could be that they were all travelling to Riverrun together for the wedding, but wouldn't it be too much of a coincidence for Rickard to have brought the fathers of the boys accompanying Brandon?

[MtnLion]

When you get to calculating the trip to the tower, keep in mind that it absolutely cannot be more than 3.5 weeks from the sack of King's Landing, to the battle at the tower. It can be less, Ned can go immediately from one to the next, but it cannot be four weeks. Anything more will raise the spectre that Daenerys was fathered on Dragonstone. ;)

[Maia]

Well, I was assuming Brandon was riding from Winterfell, since after the announcement of his betrothal, he does once visits the Ryswells (he told Barbary Dustin on their last night together how he didn't want to marry Catelyn;

Didn't that happen when Brandon came of age and was leaving the Dustins? I.e. 4 years before his death. And likely 1-2 years _after_ Brandon was privately told about his betrothal, too ;).

since Petyr challanged Brandon when the marriage was announced,

I am sure that it had been known for a while that Cat was betrothed to Brandon - Petyr challenged Brandon because he thought that Cat had sex with him and therefore returned his love, not because he was unaware of her impending marriage until that point. IMHO, YMMV.

Frankly, I think that Brandon's mysterious errand had to do with Ashara Dayne. It seems most likely to me that she didn't take steps to prevent or terminate her pregnancy because Brandon promised to marry her during their affair at Harrenhal. "Marriage Contracts can be broken", after all, as Tyrion helpfully informs us in ACoK.

But then, he had time to think the things through and also saw that Cat was attractive and changed his mind. But despite everything, he felt that he owed it to Ashara to inform her in person. That's my theory and I am sticking to it!

/thread drift.

[MtnLion]

Didn't that happen when Brandon came of age and was leaving the Dustins? I.e. 4 years before his death. And likely 1-2 years _after_ Brandon was privately told about his betrothal, too ;).

I am sure that it had been known for a while that Cat was betrothed to Brandon - Petyr challenged Brandon because he thought that Cat had sex with him and therefore returned his love, not because he was unaware of her impending marriage until that point. IMHO, YMMV.

Frankly, I think that Brandon's mysterious errand had to do with Ashara Dayne. It seems most likely to me that she didn't take steps to prevent or terminate her pregnancy because Brandon promised to marry her during their affair at Harrenhal. "Marriage Contracts can be broken", after all, as Tyrion helpfully informs us in ACoK.

But then, he had time to think the things through and also saw that Cat was attractive and changed his mind. But despite everything, he felt that he owed it to Ashara to inform her in person. That's my theory and I am sticking to it!

/thread drift.

No, it is given that Petyr challenged Brandon the day that the betrothal was announced.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I have a feeling that it will turn to either Jon=Elia's son, or Elia's Aegon was Lyanna's.

[MtnLion]

Hehe, nice find :) Hadn't thought about that one.

I think it's a mistake, or perhaps (since they are supposed to be unreliable POVs) Jaime is misremembering which night he heard it.

The Mace-and-Dagger Hand died and the Pyromancer Rossart took over, yet Rossart was only Hand for a fortnight. There was a fortnight between the Battle on the Trident and the Sack of KL. Yet Jon Darry was present at both, supposedly. Jon Darry died at the Trident, this we know for certain.

I guess Jaime is remembering another night, and mistakes it with the burning of Chelsted by mistake, which explains why Darry was still there. Rhaella didn't leave for Dragonstone until the news of the Trident reached them. It is very much possible that Aerys raped Rhaella when he had Chelsted burned - he became aroused when seeing men burn. But I guess Jaime is misremembering two different nights, combining them in his mind.

But you're making one mistake there.

Between the Trident and the Sack is a fortnight, not between Rhaegar/Jon Darry leaving KL and Ned arriving for the Sack.

So even though it is unknown how long the army takes to travel (though I'll calculate that for you once I have enoug time, perhaps later today), it's not within the fortnight between the Trident and the Sack :)

As the quote goes, Darry is present when Chelsted is burnt, then dies at the Trident. There is but a fortnight between for the army to go and lose at the Trident, and Tywin to arrive. Ned arrives shortly after Tywin, while the city is being sacked. Didn't GRRM say that the battle was within a fortnight of the sack?

I have argued that Jaime misremembered, but that falls on deaf ears. I too think that the distance is far too great for an army to make the trip in a fortnight. But, it is GRRM's world and story, and he can shorten or lengthen distances as he sees fit.

[MtnLion]

I have a feeling that it will turn to either Jon=Elia's son, or Elia's Aegon was Lyanna's.

Neither is reasonable.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Neither is reasonable.

You would be surprised.

[Ygrain]

The only living and old weirwoods in the South that we know of. We know of stumps at High Heart and the dead one at Raventree Hall and I am at a loss if we heard of any new young weirwoods in the south maybe when Brienne was travelling the crown lands. Can't remember now. I remember the new one at the Nightfort halfhaertedly. There was one in the Godswood at Storms End before it got Melinsundered, maybe some more castles in the south keep one?

But the God's Eye has this name and it is right at the heart of the land, and there's a base of the little green men there and everything else. There'll be a museum with paintings of their wedding and the wedding gown in display, that's for sure.

Aye - stumps and the likes or very young ones do not really count because R+L either wouldn't know of them or wouldn't think to say the words before them (definitely not before stumps), and if there are any yet alive in the castle godswoods, those are out of questions because R+L could hardly come and ask to be allowed to peruse the weirwood without raising suspicion.

[MtnLion]

You would be surprised.

Simple logic check: Jon is younger than Robb.

[opaltiger]

Er, if you absolutely wanted Lyanna to be pregnant twice, couldn't you just theorise that she was pregnant before the abduction? Not that I understand exactly what the idea behind two pregnancies is.

[MtnLion]

Er, if you absolutely wanted Lyanna to be pregnant twice, couldn't you just theorise that she was pregnant before the abduction? Not that I understand exactly what the idea behind two pregnancies is.

I think the idea is to make Wylla Manderly into Lyanna's daughter . . .

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Simple logic check: Jon is younger than Robb.

Not only that but also Ned says that Jon is Ned2.0.

But obviously that happens because he looks like a Martell. When obviously Lyanna was at ToH, spent almost a year away from WF, disappeared with Rhaegar, became pregnant and gave birth between 281-282.

[Ser Leftwich]

No, it is given that Petyr challenged Brandon the day that the betrothal was announced.

"When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand." AGoT p. 167 (my emphasis)

"Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell..." AFfC p. 495

This discussion of when the Brandon-Catelyn arrangement was publicly known has come up before. Jaime seems to have known about it when he was still an early squire, which is well before the Brandon-Petyr duel.

The consensus was that Petyr made the challenge when the announcement for when the wedding was going to happen.The betrothal was long arranged, but could still be broken, once the wedding was announced, Petyr had to act.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think the idea is to make Wylla Manderly into Lyanna's daughter . . .

How convenient Wylla "Starkfanatic" Manderly was born one year (or more) after Lyanna's death at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna must have faked that part, for sure.