From Aegon’s birth until Lyanna’s death: How much time has passed?

[MtnLion]

Not only that but also Ned says that Jon is Ned2.0.

But obviously that happens because he looks like a Martell. When obviously Lyanna was at ToH, spent almost a year away from WF, disappeared with Rhaegar, became pregnant and gave birth between 281-282.

Ah, but when exactly do Ned and Lyanna talk at Winterfell? We know that Ned leaves the Eyrie to go to the Tourney at Harrenhal. It only stands to reason that during the winter that followed the tourney held the year of the false spring was spent in Winterfell by all of the Stark kids.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

GRRM knows the siege happened after the Sack. Ned and Robert argued about the consequences of the Sack, causing Ned to ride south. The skirmish at the ToJ and Lyanna's death happen at the same day indeed, and Jon's birth happens somewhere in between the Trident and Lyanna's death, no doubt.

You know that I know that GRRM knows...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ah, but when exactly do Ned and Lyanna talk at Winterfell? We know that Ned leaves the Eyrie to go to the Tourney at Harrenhal. It only stands to reason that during the winter that followed the tourney held the year of the false spring was spent in Winterfell by all of the Stark kids.

I agree, I just say what other people claim not my own opinion.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Ah, but when exactly do Ned and Lyanna talk at Winterfell? We know that Ned leaves the Eyrie to go to the Tourney at Harrenhal. It only stands to reason that during the winter that followed the tourney held the year of the false spring was spent in Winterfell by all of the Stark kids.

Best working point in time. "Stark family reunion" in the winter that followed the Tourney and the "false spring" in "the year of the false spring" :-)

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you :)

Yeah, I've liked solving those things. Add that to my love for details, and these are the kind of things you get :D These are the kind of puzzles I like!

As to the answer, Ygrain beat me to it, but her answer pretty much encapsulates what I was going to say.

And the fact that Bran has already seen Lyanna, as well, as Benjen through the "weirnet," makes me think Bran will see her, (and Rhaegar) again, making that location important.

I'm also glad you love these puzzles and are willing to work with them, because they make me angry. :bang: :D

[Ygrain]

And the fact that Bran has already seen Lyanna, as well, as Benjen through the "weirnet," makes me think Bran will see her, (and Rhaegar) again, making that location important.

Should we hope for some explicit content? :D Waking the dragon moment, mmm?

[Maia]

Ah, but when exactly do Ned and Lyanna talk at Winterfell?

When Lord Rickard was considering the matter of Lyanna's betrothal to Robert? I have always thought that she was already betrothed at Harrenhal...

We know that Ned leaves the Eyrie to go to the Tourney at Harrenhal. It only stands to reason that during the winter that followed the tourney held the year of the false spring was spent in Winterfell by all of the Stark kids.

Not sure why. It is a long way from Harrenhal/Riverrun to Winterfell and back. You don't go all the distance just to stay for a few days. IMHO, it is rather likely that the Stark kids remained in the south between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance. How and why and where we don't yet know, of course.

But we do know that Ned, at least, was in the Vale when things went down.

Lyanna couldn't have been supposedly kidnapped from Winterfell or the North in general, I don't think, so she was in the south when it happened.

And Brandon's choice of companions also suggests that he wasn't in the North immediately prior to his mad rush to KL. Not to mention that Lord Rickard would have been able to stop him, if such was the case. Ravens fly quicker than horses can run, after all.

And don't forget that he spent quite a bit of time in Riverrun too - Cat seemed to know him pretty well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

They married before the weirwood there :-)

There are also metatext reason to presume that the location will be of importance - it is the only weirwood in the south. Why have it there is the first place if it is not going to be used, now that we have learned about the weirnet? And, since it is so close to Harrenhall, it ties in with the pattern of repeating stories and motives that GRRM uses. Harrenhall plays an important role in Arya's, Jaime's and Brienne's arc, it is tied to the founding of Targaryen rule as well as to the beginning of R+L, That's an awfully loaded location.

Oh, BTW, Jaime has a scholar and that poor girl from HH in his entourage, right? Provided that he survives Lady Stoneheart, we might get a piece of information from over there - you know, a sort of HH popular legend about Lyanna's affair, which Arya never heard because she never developed any relationships with the HH smallfolk.

As to the answer, Ygrain beat me to it, but her answer pretty much encapsulates what I was going to say.

And the fact that Bran has already seen Lyanna, as well, as Benjen through the "weirnet," makes me think Bran will see her, (and Rhaegar) again, making that location important.

I'm also glad you love these puzzles and are willing to work with them, because they make me angry. :bang: :D

Those are some nice explanations, thanks! :D

When you get to calculating the trip to the tower, keep in mind that it absolutely cannot be more than 3.5 weeks from the sack of King's Landing, to the battle at the tower. It can be less, Ned can go immediately from one to the next, but it cannot be four weeks. Anything more will raise the spectre that Daenerys was fathered on Dragonstone. ;)

Why can't the trip not be more than 3,5 weeks from the Sack of KL?

Dany was born 9 months after the Sack

Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany, so he is born around the time of the Sack.

A pregnancy lasts 40 weeks on average, which is 9,2 months.

So why can't Ned take 4 weeks to travel from KL to ToJ? Jon would already be born... Ned taking a few days more or less doesn't change Jon's day of birth.

Didn't that happen when Brandon came of age and was leaving the Dustins? I.e. 4 years before his death. And likely 1-2 years _after_ Brandon was privately told about his betrothal, too ;).

I am sure that it had been known for a while that Cat was betrothed to Brandon - Petyr challenged Brandon because he thought that Cat had sex with him and therefore returned his love, not because he was unaware of her impending marriage until that point. IMHO, YMMV.

Frankly, I think that Brandon's mysterious errand had to do with Ashara Dayne. It seems most likely to me that she didn't take steps to prevent or terminate her pregnancy because Brandon promised to marry her during their affair at Harrenhal. "Marriage Contracts can be broken", after all, as Tyrion helpfully informs us in ACoK.

But then, he had time to think the things through and also saw that Cat was attractive and changed his mind. But despite everything, he felt that he owed it to Ashara to inform her in person. That's my theory and I am sticking to it!

/thread drift.

Ashara was said to have jumped from the tower shortly after having a stillborn daughter. That would place her becoming pregnant to 9 months before, which would have been during the early stages of the Rebellion. So it can't have been Brandon's child, IMHO. Unless he pulled a Plumm and impregnated Ashara after his death :p

Dishonering a lady can mean simply having had seks with her. She would no longer be a maiden anymore, and her value would drop.

No, it is given that Petyr challenged Brandon the day that the betrothal was announced.

This.

As the quote goes, Darry is present when Chelsted is burnt, then dies at the Trident. There is but a fortnight between for the army to go and lose at the Trident, and Tywin to arrive. Ned arrives shortly after Tywin, while the city is being sacked. Didn't GRRM say that the battle was within a fortnight of the sack?

I have argued that Jaime misremembered, but that falls on deaf ears. I too think that the distance is far too great for an army to make the trip in a fortnight. But, it is GRRM's world and story, and he can shorten or lengthen distances as he sees fit.

Yes, the quote in Jaime's chapter says that it is the burning of Chelsted that arroused Aerys and that Aerys raped his wife that night, while Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard.

I agree with you that Jaime misremembered, as I said before. It is impossible for Jon Darry to have been present the night after Chelsted's burning. Chelsted died a fortnigth before the Sack. The battle of the Trident was also a fortnight before the Sack.

Rhaegar and Jon Darry would have left KL before Chelsted died in order to arrive at the Trident to fight Robert. So I agree that Jaime misremembered. Aerys has burned more men, and raped his wife more than once. So it's quite possible that Jaime combined two memories in his mind: one memory of him and Jon Darry guarding the king while he rapes Rhaella, with their conversation about protecting Rhaella taking place, and one memory about Aerys raping Rhaella on the night he burned Chelsted.

So there is no fortnight for the army to travel from KL to the Trident, loose the battle, and the Sack to follow. Rhaegar and Jon Darry left for KL, arrived at the Trident and lost, and only after the Trident was fought, it took a fortnight for the Sack to take place.

"When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand." AGoT p. 167 (my emphasis)

"Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell..." AFfC p. 495

This discussion of when the Brandon-Catelyn arrangement was publicly known has come up before. Jaime seems to have known about it when he was still an early squire, which is well before the Brandon-Petyr duel.

The consensus was that Petyr made the challenge when the announcement for when the wedding was going to happen.The betrothal was long arranged, but could still be broken, once the wedding was announced, Petyr had to act.

It seems as if Jaime knew about the betrothal before it was officially announced. Petyr challenged Brandon when it became official.

Announcing a betrothal is practically announcing a wedding, just not a date, right?

Robb was only betrothed to a Frey girl, yet when he broke it, it made him make enemies amongst the Frey's. Breaking a betrothal is simply not done. Petyr knowing about the betrothal, yet only caring when the wedding date is set, is a bit strange. It's Hoster who arranges those things. Why would Petyr suddenly act and not before?

I thought marriages would have to get approved of sorts by the king, which meant that Tywin, who was still Hand when the betrothal was made, would have known about it. Perhaps Jaime overheard him say something about it?

Ah, but when exactly do Ned and Lyanna talk at Winterfell? We know that Ned leaves the Eyrie to go to the Tourney at Harrenhal. It only stands to reason that during the winter that followed the tourney held the year of the false spring was spent in Winterfell by all of the Stark kids.

When Lyanna and Ned speak in Winterfell, Mya Stone is already born. Mya was born in 280 AC (she was 19 in 299 AC). I always thought that Ned and Robert would travel from the Eyrie to Winterfell, where the betrothal was made, and then travel to Harrenhall together. It's even quite possible that Jon Arryn had joined them on this trip. Either Robert (as Lord of Storm's End) or Jon Arryn (as Robert's foster parent) would have arranged his betrothal to Lyanna, and for that, they would have to have spoken to Rickard himself (and seen Lyanna in person, Robert at least).

So from Winterfell, they could all have travelled to Harrenhal. There is no reason for the Starks to reunite at Winterfell after the Tourney.

Or I missed a source?

Best working point in time. "Stark family reunion" in the winter that followed the Tourney and the "false spring" in "the year of the false spring" :-)

See above.

When Lord Rickard was considering the matter of Lyanna's betrothal to Robert? I have always thought that she was already betrothed at Harrenhal...

Not sure why. It is a long way from Harrenhal/Riverrun to Winterfell and back. You don't go all the distance just to stay for a few days. IMHO, it is rather likely that the Stark kids remained in the south between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance. How and why and where we don't yet know, of course.

But we do know that Ned, at least, was in the Vale when things went down.

Lyanna couldn't have been supposedly kidnapped from Winterfell or the North in general, I don't think, so she was in the south when it happened.

And Brandon's choice of companions also suggests that he wasn't in the North immediately prior to his mad rush to KL. Not to mention that Lord Rickard would have been able to stop him, if such was the case. Ravens fly quicker than horses can run, after all.

And don't forget that he spent quite a bit of time in Riverrun too - Cat seemed to know him pretty well.

Ned was in the Vale when things went wrong. Brandon on his was to Riverrun, peraps with Rickard, though we cannot be certain of this.

Brandon's choice of companions doesn't necessarily mean he cannot have been in the north prior. Several northern boys were fostered in the Vale, some boys from the Vale could have been fostered in the north. And if Brandon can travel around, why not those boys?

How well would Cat know him? Could you provide quotes?

[Alia of the knife]

Should we hope for some explicit content? :D Waking the dragon moment, mmm?

Yeah, I can hear Bran now:

"Ohhh, was not expecting to see that, TMI Aunt Lyanna." :blushing: :D

When Lord Rickard was considering the matter of Lyanna's betrothal to Robert? I have always thought that she was already betrothed at Harrenhal...

I did too, hence GRRM's statement that Robert was none too happy about the crowning.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Not sure why. It is a long way from Harrenhal/Riverrun to Winterfell and back. You don't go all the distance just to stay for a few days. IMHO, it is rather likely that the Stark kids remained in the south between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance. How and why and where we don't yet know, of course.

But we do know that Ned, at least, was in the Vale when things went down.

Unfortunately there goes a year or more so from Tourney to Robellion so there's reason to use twice 5 weeks to travel to Winterfell and back for a Stark familiy reunion.

Because youngest brother Benjen needs to come home. He hasn't flown the nest yet. Lyanna as well.

There's also reason to believe that Winter was coming back. Reason to seek Winterfell to stay there.

I agree that Rickon's errand and Lyanna's abduction will probably have happened in the South. But that was another year.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Sorry, I hope I haven't garbled the quote all too much:

Ashara was said to have jumped from the tower shortly after having a stillborn daughter. That would place her becoming pregnant to 9 months before, which would have been during the early stages of the Rebellion.

Dishonering a lady can mean simply having had seks with her. She would no longer be a maiden anymore, and her value would drop.

So from Winterfell, they could all have travelled to Harrenhal. There is no reason for the Starks to reunite at Winterfell after the Tourney.

Or I missed a source?

Ned was in the Vale when things went wrong. Brandon on his was to Riverrun, peraps with Rickard, though we cannot be certain of this.

If Ashara bore Brandon's child, that would have been in the year of the false spring.

I cannot make a lucky guess for the "stillborn daughter" 2 years later.

In case of Lysa Tully it made her more "valuable" in the end...

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

"Winter is Coming"/"The Year of the False Spring"

Since Benjen was in Winterfell, theoreticall Rickard could have been in the South, but I doubt it. Rickard would not have endured Brandons follies.

[Ser Leftwich]

Announcing a betrothal is practically announcing a wedding, just not a date, right?

Robb was only betrothed to a Frey girl, yet when he broke it, it made him make enemies amongst the Frey's. Breaking a betrothal is simply not done. Petyr knowing about the betrothal, yet only caring when the wedding date is set, is a bit strange. It's Hoster who arranges those things. Why would Petyr suddenly act and not before?

I thought marriages would have to get approved of sorts by the king, which meant that Tywin, who was still Hand when the betrothal was made, would have known about it. Perhaps Jaime overheard him say something about it?

I think this is a circumstance of agree to disagree.

There is an important distinction about what Robb did. He got married, without first dissolving the arrangement with Walder Frey. What Joffrey did with Sansa was to break off a betrothal. A small, but very important distinction in the weird little legalese of Westeros.

Petyr would act at that time because Brandon was on hand to take the challenge up. We know of no other times when Petyr and Brandon were together for Petyr to issue said challenge.

Why would the king have any say in approving marriages or not?

[WinterIsBurning]

I've argued before that an excerpt from the first Connington chapter in ADWD places Aegon's birth AFTER the Battle of the Bells. He's remembering the bells ringing in his ears throughout the fight and he says something to the effect of "The bells tolled for Aerys and his queen, Elia and her daughter, every honest woman and true man, and my silver prince."

Really makes it sound like Aegon is not in the picture at this point, and the Battle of the Bells happens in 283 AC. This actually would fit with Rhaegar being in King's Landing with Elia during Aegon's birth because we know that Rhaegar goes to King's Landing before riding out to the Trident.

I guess it could be an overlooked detail by GRRM or a detail misremembered by Connington, but the specificity of it is odd in the context of the entire passage. Plus it's a lot more fun to consider that it takes about 3 months for Rhaegar to be found and travel back to King's Landing, and Rickard Stark's burning about six months before the Battle of the Bells, which would make for a very conspicuous nine month window and bring a whole new significance to Jaime's recollection of Aerys and Rhaella after Chelsted's burning.

But that's another thread entirely :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think this is a circumstance of agree to disagree.

There is an important distinction about what Robb did. He got married, without first dissolving the arrangement with Walder Frey. What Joffrey did with Sansa was to break off a betrothal. A small, but very important distinction in the weird little legalese of Westeros.

Petyr would act at that time because Brandon was on hand to take the challenge up. We know of no other times when Petyr and Brandon were together for Petyr to issue said challenge.

Why would the king have any say in approving marriages or not?

I meant more that Aerys would be aware of the betrothal/marriage to come, and not to approve or disapprove. Though he is still king, and if he hears something is about to happen (like a marriage between two families) that he doesn't want to happen, he can make it not happen. But I actually meant in my post above that Aerys, and thus his Hand of the time, Tywin, would have been aware of the betrothal.

I think Brandon would have met Petyr before, since:

"Did Brandon speak of me too?"

"Often, and with some heat," Ned said.

So Brandon spoke often about LF, to Ned as well. And rather heated, according to Ned. Between the duel and Brandon´s death, can´t be more time than a year (Brandon was said to have been 20 at both events). So Brandon must have met LF before, and LF can´t have made such a good impression on him, since he´d later speak about LF with quite some heat.

It could be that Brandon went to Riverrun to meet Catelyn. LF might have seen this as a threat: a young high-born heir visits Riverrun, where the unpromised daughters of Hoster Tully live. Unbeknownst to LF, Cat and Brandon are already betrothed, but because it's still a secret, no one else actually knows about it. LF is a clever man, he would have been a clever boy. He would have put one and two together, and guessed that Brandon might have been there to court Cat, and to persuade Hoster into a betrothal. His attitude would have been hostile in such a case. Brandon would not have responded well to that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've argued before that an excerpt from the first Connington chapter in ADWD places Aegon's birth AFTER the Battle of the Bells. He's remembering the bells ringing in his ears throughout the fight and he says something to the effect of "The bells tolled for Aerys and his queen, Elia and her daughter, every honest woman and true man, and my silver prince."

Really makes it sound like Aegon is not in the picture at this point, and the Battle of the Bells happens in 283 AC. This actually would fit with Rhaegar being in King's Landing with Elia during Aegon's birth because we know that Rhaegar goes to King's Landing before riding out to the Trident.

I guess it could be an overlooked detail by GRRM or a detail misremembered by Connington, but the specificity of it is odd in the context of the entire passage. Plus it's a lot more fun to consider that it takes about 3 months for Rhaegar to be found and travel back to King's Landing, and Rickard Stark's burning about six months before the Battle of the Bells, which would make for a very conspicuous nine month window and bring a whole new significance to Jaime's recollection of Aerys and Rhaella after Chelsted's burning.

But that's another thread entirely :)

JonCon is quoting those who have died. Elia is dead, Rhaenys is death, Aerys and Rhaella are death. But Aegon still lives. In KL, the bells toll to announce the death of a King. JonCon might have associated it with that.

[MtnLion]

When Lyanna and Ned speak in Winterfell, Mya Stone is already born. Mya was born in 280 AC (she was 19 in 299 AC). I always thought that Ned and Robert would travel from the Eyrie to Winterfell, where the betrothal was made, and then travel to Harrenhall together. It's even quite possible that Jon Arryn had joined them on this trip. Either Robert (as Lord of Storm's End) or Jon Arryn (as Robert's foster parent) would have arranged his betrothal to Lyanna, and for that, they would have to have spoken to Rickard himself (and seen Lyanna in person, Robert at least).

So from Winterfell, they could all have travelled to Harrenhal. There is no reason for the Starks to reunite at Winterfell after the Tourney.

Or I missed a source?

The source is in GoT, Ned recalls being down from the Eyrie to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. No journey to Winterfell in between. Lyanna can be collecting gossip and making observations before the betrothal is finalized, and Robert can be attending to reconnoiter Lyanna, as well. When plans are being finalized, Lyanna is objecting and seeks Ned's help with their father and it is definitely in Winterfell. This makes sense to have happened at Winterfell, following the tourney, that is conveniently followed by a period of nearly a year of winter.

[Ser Leftwich]

So Brandon spoke often about LF, to Ned as well. And rather heated, according to Ned. Between the duel and Brandon´s death, can´t be more time than a year (Brandon was said to have been 20 at both events). So Brandon must have met LF before, and LF can´t have made such a good impression on him, since he´d later speak about LF with quite some heat.

It could be that Brandon went to Riverrun to meet Catelyn. LF might have seen this as a threat: a young high-born heir visits Riverrun, where the unpromised daughters of Hoster Tully live. Unbeknownst to LF, Cat and Brandon are already betrothed, but because it's still a secret, no one else actually knows about it. LF is a clever man, he would have been a clever boy. He would have put one and two together, and guessed that Brandon might have been there to court Cat, and to persuade Hoster into a betrothal. His attitude would have been hostile in such a case. Brandon would not have responded well to that.

Ah, I get what you mean about Aerys knowing. Sorry if my confusion sounded like I was being a jerk.

Point taken on Brandon and Petyr having met.

Brandon probably thought that Petyr was trying to take advantage of the situation with his foster sister, like Brandon did with Barbrey Ryswell. Because that is what he would/did do!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The source is in GoT, Ned recalls being down from the Eyrie to attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. No journey to Winterfell in between. Lyanna can be collecting gossip and making observations before the betrothal is finalized, and Robert can be attending to reconnoiter Lyanna, as well. When plans are being finalized, Lyanna is objecting and seeks Ned's help with their father and it is definitely in Winterfell. This makes sense to have happened at Winterfell, following the tourney, that is conveniently followed by a period of nearly a year of winter.

I'll try to work this out further! :)

[Alia of the knife]

The one thing I do find interesting where it looks like GRRM has deviated from history, is giving the Targaryen kings the right to determine the marriages of their nobles.

In this world, Aerys does not seem to have the power to affect the betrothals, else he would have stopped the Berantheon/Stark, Stark/Tully marriages, or they would never have gotten off the ground since these Houses would have needed his permission to go forward.

[Greymoon]

Never mind.