Tormund GiantsMANE Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Cat technically commited treason against the king in the north. It's on Robb to deal with her and he decides to "imprison" her. At that point Karstark is compelled to follow Robb's orders/wishes. Karstark's killing of the Lannister cousins is still a treason, but one that Northmen might deal with a little better than one of The King in The North's bannermen killing his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 What makes you think that Jaime was an especially valuable hostage? Did the captivity of Jaime force Tywin to the bargaining table, ensure the humane, respectable treatment of the Stark hostage or in any way make Lord Tywin abate his prosecution of the war? Based upon the reading of the story, Tywin did nothing that in any way would lead anyone that his son being captured would force him to change his behavior. In that, he was a worthless hostage, except as potential hostage to be exchanged for Robb's heirs.. We must have been reading a different book. Did you not read Tyrion's final chapter in the first book, "THEY HAVE MY SON". Tywin was clearly upset that they had Jamie and was making all of his efforts to get him back. Tywin was forced into a stand still with Robb where neither one was capable of making a move, while he sent word to his forces pack in the Western Lands to gather up a new army, so he could crush Robb. Cercie was in even worse shape, but was too stupid and worried about Stannis to do anything about it. Tyrion on the other hand was trying his best to get his brother back and even hired 4 men to break him out. After the student Cat pulled there's no way Tywin or Cerice would give up Sansa, Tyrion and Jamie might try to honor the agreement, but the Regent and Hand out rank the Master of Coin and Lord Commander of the Kings Guard. It was a stupid move and Cat made it with no guarantee she'd get her daughter back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 After the student Cat pulled there's no way Tywin or Cerice would give up Sansa, Tyrion and Jamie might try to honor the agreement, but the Regent and Hand out rank the Master of Coin and Lord Commander of the Kings Guard. It was a stupid move and Cat made it with no guarantee she'd get her daughter back Tyrion was the Hand of the King when Catelyn released Jaime, thus if Jaime hadn't been held up and had arrived before the Battle of the Blackwater then Tyrion would have likely used his authority to successfully exchange Sansa back to her family. Instead, Blackwater occurred which led to Tyrion being injured and replaced by Tywin before Jaime could arrive at King's Landing. Moreover, while Tywin might have been upset it hardly altered his plans as continued to terrorize the Riverlands just as much as he was doing before. The reason there was a standstill was because neither wanted to directly bring battle to the other in how that risked defeat more then anything related to Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Um weren't they at Riverrun? Doubt he could get away with killing a Tully there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Tyrion was the Hand of the King when Catelyn released Jaime, thus if Jaime hadn't been held up and had arrived before the Battle of the Blackwater then Tyrion would have likely used his authority to successfully exchange Sansa back to her family. Instead, Blackwater occurred which led to Tyrion being injured and replaced by Tywin before Jaime could arrive at King's Landing. Moreover, while Tywin might have been upset it hardly altered his plans as continued to terrorize the Riverlands just as much as he was doing before. The reason there was a standstill was because neither wanted to directly bring battle to the other in how that risked defeat more then anything related to Jaime. Still a very stupid move trust Tyrion. I mean this is the man who just tried to break Jamie out of River Run by hiring a group of mercenaries. On top of that it was an informal hostage exchange, meaning it was done without The King in the North's consent, which means the Lannister's did not have to honor the agreement. Tyrion also lied about having Arya too, so again Cat was a fool for trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 What makes you think that Jaime was an especially valuable hostage? Did the captivity of Jaime force Tywin to the bargaining table, ensure the humane, respectable treatment of the Stark hostage or in any way make Lord Tywin abate his prosecution of the war? Based upon the reading of the story, Tywin did nothing that in any way would lead anyone that his son being captured would force him to change his behavior. In that, he was a worthless hostage, except as potential hostage to be exchanged for Robb's heirs.. The fact that he was Tywins son. Not the second son of a second son who holds no power or the third son of a second son who also holds no power. My point is, of course Cat had her reasons to do what she did, she was a mother who loves her childer which mother who loves her childer wouldn't have done the same? But her love for her children doesn't mean that since she, without holding any power at all rather than Lady dowager, let her King's most valuable hostage free which means that she committed treason in the promise, on swordpoint, of the relishe of her enemy's most valuable hostage. That would never happened. Tyrion held no power since he was acting Hand while Tywin was the Hand. Since Catelyn and Rickard had committed treason they should be equally punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Since Catelyn and Rickard had committed treason they should be equally punished. They did not commit equal treason, thus there was no reason for them to be equally punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Catelyn committed treason. Karstark committed treason, murder, and mutiny. Thus, he got the harsher punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Catelyn committed treason. Karstark committed treason, murder, and mutiny. Thus, he got the harsher punishment. He was executed and she was send to a 5***** spa. No, this is not justice. He could be either executed or send to the Wall and she should lose her tongue and had been sent to the Silent Sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 He was executed and she was send to a 5***** spa. No, this is not justice. He could be either executed or send to the Wall and she should lose her tongue and had been sent to the Silent Sisters. Again they didn't commit the same crime, therefore justice doesn't dictate they be treated in the same measure. Moreover, cutting out your own mother's tongue and forcing her into the Silent Sisters is additionally ridiculously cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggor hill Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Seven hells!Reading this thread gave me a headache.Did someone really suggest Rob should of cut out his own mothers tongue and send her to the silent sisters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Seven hells!Reading this thread gave me a headache.Did someone really suggest Rob should of cut out his own mothers tongue and send her to the silent sisters?Yes. Something that is better than killing her as a traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Seven hells!Reading this thread gave me a headache.Did someone really suggest Rob should of cut out his own mothers tongue and send her to the silent sisters? Cat is not popular, being a realistically awesome woman and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Cat is not popular, being a realistically awesome woman and all. So everyone who doesn't like Cat doesn't like women? :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :lmao: That is so hilariously ridiculous! Thank you for the laugh, I was needing it! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Well, I don't think Karstark felt she was entitled to act against Cat, as she was his king's mother and a parent's mother.She left escape his children's slayer, but she didn't kill his children."The Lannister" did kill his children, and he wanted enemy blood to avenge his chidren's one. It also fitted to his perception to have young blood for young blood, in absence of the direct responsible.It is as much a credible agricultural faida as they get. Blood for blood, children for children, to the last vengeance, to the last death, to the last drop of tears.I believe that Karstark thought that for Cat, loss of honor and of respect was enough to punish her, unless she had the daring of speaking in his presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 What really pisses me off about this whole situation is Robb totally had a way out that didn't involve him holding Karstark prisoner or make him a kin slayer. All he had to do was all allow Karstark to take the black. Though I suppose the Stark's have always been rather quick to deal out capital punishment, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Again they didn't commit the same crime, therefore justice doesn't dictate they be treated in the same measure. Moreover, cutting out your own mother's tongue and forcing her into the Silent Sisters is additionally ridiculously cruel. It's the kind of punishment that Caligula (or Aerys) would devise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It's the kind of punishment that Caligula (or Aerys) would devise. Because sending a traitor to a 5***** hotel is a good punishment for a traitor? After all in history when women caused trouble for their sons kingdoms they were sended at convents. I don't see why this couldn't apply to her as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Cat is not popular, being a realistically awesome woman and all. Indeed. The Cat hate is so tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Indeed. The Cat hate is so tiresome. Same can be said about Stannis hate, Jon hate and literally most of the hate other characters get. Catelyn is no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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