Identify POV's that are proven liars and when they have lied.....

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Does the POV character need to have lied to the reader or other characters in the novel? Jon springs to mind as ocassionally lying to members of the NW , but his thoughts acknowledge the lie.

Its not so much as lie as a repressed memory (Freud would have loved him, Little Hans of Westeros) but Bran repressed his memory of the tower incident where he saw Jamie and Cersei. The memory is clearly there, as he *almost* remembers it in Clash when someone tells him about Stannis' letter. But he pushes it away (with the help of BR i think?). Does this count?

Cersei is one of the biggies, sometimes what I think ia clearly a lie is put across so convincingly in her chapters as truth that I begin to believe it. For example, the Blue Bard's admission; she never actually thinks: we have to make him falsely confess. Yet this is what she is doing.

I dont know if Aeron hearing the Drowned God counts either?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Does the POV character need to have lied to the reader or other characters in the novel? Jon springs to mind as ocassionally lying to members of the NW , but his thoughts acknowledge the lie.

Its not so much as lie as a repressed memory (Freud would have loved him, Little Hans of Westeros) but Bran repressed his memory of the tower incident where he saw Jamie and Cersei. The memory is clearly there, as he *almost* remembers it in Clash when someone tells him about Stannis' letter. But he pushes it away (with the help of BR i think?). Does this count?

Cersei is one of the biggies, sometimes what I think ia clearly a lie is put across so convincingly in her chapters as truth that I begin to believe it. For example, the Blue Bard's admission; she never actually thinks: we have to make him falsely confess. Yet this is what she is doing.

I dont know if Aeron hearing the Drowned God counts either?

If the POV speaks a lie, but thinks to themselves that it's a lie and they know it, then that does not count.

Only when the POV mis-leads the reader. We are trying to figure out which are the most trustworthy POV's.

So yeah Cersei is the biggest one IMO. Almost everything she thinks about Margarey is false. She just projects all her own visciousness into other people and thinks they are all out to get her. When in reality she is out to get everybody else.

[RoamingRonin]

Tyrion often (and loudly) proclaiming himself to be Hand of the King when he was just acting Hand. When Tywin returns to King's Landing, Tyrion is irritated Tywin removed him from the Hand's Tower and took back the title as Hand when it was well established Tyrion was only filling in the role until Tywin could arrive to claim it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Littlefinger doesn't count, he's not a POV.

Cersei, I don't know whether her POVS in Feast should count or not; the reader *knows* she's lying to herself (see her servants destroying her gowns vs her gaining weight), it works as a characterization of the POV, it does not really mislead the reader.

Davos' chapter at White Harbor made me bite the bait, but it wasn't a lie, as far as he knew he was going to die.

Ned is the best liar, but he's not proven yet. Theon's a good one too.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Littlefinger doesn't count, he's not a POV.

Cersei, I don't know whether her POVS in Feast should count or not; the reader *knows* she's lying to herself (see her servants destroying her gowns vs her gaining weight), it works as a characterization of the POV, it does not really mislead the reader.

Davos' chapter at White Harbor made me bite the bait, but it wasn't a lie, as far as he knew he was going to die.

Ned is the best liar, but he's not proven yet. Theon's a good one too.

Ned was very good at censoring his thoughts. he mis-leads us over and over in his 1st few chapters.

Yeah I trust Davos a lot. and that wasn't a lie.

Cersei is def a big liar, she is lying to herself, in her own thoughts constantly, so that counts for sure.

[Ser Not Appearing]

2. Cersei believing that without Sansa she couldn't have imprisoned Ned.

It's worth noting that readers do not have a full view of exactly how things went down behind the scenes on Cersei's side of things as it relates to the planning and execution of that matter... so more likely Cersei is right and readers are the ones mis-judging things based on too-little information and emotional ties to characters like Sansa or Ned... but either way... I'd say this isn't a lie or a mis-remembered moment.

This is Cersei's opinion based on having experienced it and made decisions in moments readers don't have access to. At the worst she may just not have quite enough intellect to know Eddard was hers no matter what... but, again, that (to me) is different from having knowledge and saying something else - which is how I would describe this thread.

[Knight Of Winter]

Cersei lying to/misleading Falyse (and readers) by telling her she will be taken care of, right before giving her to Qyburn.

Melisandre deceiving everyone (herself included) with her beliefs about power of king's blood.

Theon's POV is ACOK has many conflicting views about his identity and loyalties.

[Mladen]

It's worth noting that readers do not have a full view of exactly how things went down behind the scenes on Cersei's side of things as it relates to the planning and execution of that matter... so more likely Cersei is right and readers are the ones mis-judging things based on too-little information and emotional ties to characters like Sansa or Ned... but either way... I'd say this isn't a lie or a mis-remembered moment.

This is Cersei's opinion based on having experienced it and made decisions in moments readers don't have access to. At the worst she may just not have quite enough intellect to know Eddard was hers no matter what... but, again, that (to me) is different from having knowledge and saying something else - which is how I would describe this thread.

Given the fact that we already know the timeline, and all that happened from various sources, we can easily conclude that this was just Cersei doing what she does the best. Altering the truth so she could be brighter than she is... So, given that we have objective truth of the events that preceded Ned's imprisonment, I think it's safe to say that she has augmented Sansa's role to alter the version so she could be the one behind the imprisonment.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Given the fact that we already know the timeline, and all that happened from various sources, we can easily conclude that this was just Cersei doing what she does the best. Altering the truth so she could be brighter than she is... So, given that we have objective truth of the events that preceded Ned's imprisonment, I think it's safe to say that she has augmented Sansa's role to alter the version so she could be the one behind the imprisonment.

Didnt Cersei already intend/know how she was going to dispose of Ned (offer him a chance to leave quietly or have him imprisoned) and Sansa's admission only prevented the ship leaving with Arya, Sansa and the letter?

[Ser Not Appearing]

Given the fact that we already know the timeline, and all that happened from various sources, we can easily conclude that this was just Cersei doing what she does the best. Altering the truth so she could be brighter than she is... So, given that we have objective truth of the events that preceded Ned's imprisonment, I think it's safe to say that she has augmented Sansa's role to alter the version so she could be the one behind the imprisonment.

I've stated my opinion on the matter and I do think it is/was a counter-point worth providing... so I did. I won't argue or stamp my feet but I'm happy to clarify just in case my point was too poorly expressed to be understood:

The character whose beliefs you are citing as incorrect was not a POV and the actual planning of what transpired is not present. There is not a full objective truth represented in the text because the text does not show what transpired with Cersei or between her and Sansa. The way things unfold in life, (or fiction representing life), is not a simple matter of what was possible. Results are a matter of what is believed at the time and what those beliefs lead individuals to do, the results of such actions being what ultimately occurrs. Your opinion, potentially true, that Cersei could have stopped Eddard without Sansa doesn't mean she would have.

As just one poorly expressed example:

Cersei could have misjudged the situation and had planned something else. Only on account of Sansa's conversation did she realize she had control. Did this happen? I don't know. Nobody does... that's the point... but it would generally satisy Cersei's belief.

I've stated my counter-opinion twice. You'll likely continue to disagree, as I most certainly will if you don't change your mind. I'm cool with disagreeing because I don't want to derail the thread or get into a heated, pointless discussion as sometimes happens. Besides... if we all agreed, this forum would be boring.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think there should be two categories:

One category would be lies or wrong memories that are known to the reader beforehand that are false, and the focus is to the POV character's perception and emotional state, and the second are those that mislead the reader and are proven false only in hindsight. Sansa falls to the first, Ned to the second, Theon in both.

ETA: The reason for the distinction is that, IMO, the "lying" POVs of the first category should not be considered untrustworthy for events they are witnessing in "real time". Only their account of past events should be questioned. The second category, especially the thought-censoring POVs are the more tricky ones.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think there should be two categories:

One category would be lies or wrong memories that are known to the reader beforehand that are false, and the focus is to the POV character's perception and emotional state, and the second are those that mislead the reader and are proven false only in hindsight. Sansa falls to the first, Ned to the second, Theon in both.

lol, yeah it is a big subject. I was more or less trying to discern who we cannot trust. like who is lying in their own head. If someone is told something false then repeats it, they are not a liar. The main point is on threads, people get on and say, oh you can't trust that statement or that POV because they lie to themselves or they are self-deluded. I want some concrete examples of said characters lying int heir POV's. I am not trying to make this about Dany, but I have heard it said about her and Barristan more than anyone...Personally I trust most of the POV's, not Cersei, as there are many examples of her telling herself false info to make her feel better or stronger or in the right. Also Mel does this several times, or actually with Mel we see that she confirms that she lies to others when she is not the POV. Like that she had previously lied to Stannis or Jon.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

lol, yeah it is a big subject. I was more or less trying to discern who we cannot trust. like who is lying in their own head. If someone is told something false then repeats it, they are not a liar. The main point is on threads, people get on and say, oh you can't trust that statement or that POV because they lie to themselves or they are self-deluded. I want some concrete examples of said characters lying int heir POV's. I am not trying to make this about Dany, but I have heard it said about her and Barristan more than anyone...Personally I trust most of the POV's, not Cersei, as there are many examples of her telling herself false info to make her feel better or stronger or in the right. Also Mel does this several times, or actually with Mel we see that she confirms that she lies to others when she is not the POV. Like that she had previously lied to Stannis or Jon.

Yeah, I trust most of the POVs too. It would be lame if everything we are said via the characters is a lie.

I edited my the previous post, because I think that even those who "lie" are, most of the time, reliable.

By the way, Barristan is censoring his thoughts, too. He only said "Stark" in regards to Ashara Dayne, he could heve bothered to give us a first name too...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah, I trust most of the POVs too. It would be lame if everything we are said via the characters is a lie.

I edited my the previous post, because I think that even those who "lie" are, most of the time, reliable.

By the way, Barristan is censoring his thoughts, too. He only said "Stark" in regards to Ashara Dayne, he could heve bothered to give us a first name too...

the people who know the most aka ned, barristan, and the elusive howland, say the least....wtf

[Dr. Pepper]

Pretty much every POV will have elements of the unreliable narrator. We are viewing the story in a third person limited narration so while we have intimate insight into the point of view character, we are limited into the insights of other characters for various reasons. There was a thread a while back that offered a great explanation:

In a third person limited narration, the narrator is limited to the thoughts and feelings of a single character. The only insight revealed about other characters is external and dependent upon what the POV character thinks and feels about them. The unreliable narrator is when the narrator's credibility cannot be relied upon. The reliability might be as simple as the narrator not having all of the pertinent facts or more complicated such as when the narrator confuses known facts or misremembers scenes for whatever reasons.

When these modes of storytelling are used together, the reader is forced to constantly reevaluate the story as a whole as new information is presented. This approach lends an element of realism because, as we all know, people lie, there is more than one side to every story, and memory can be faulty. Plots, schemes, motives, and character traits cannot be fully realized via one character. It requires the reader to pull information that is presented by many different characters sometimes living or traveling on completely different continents.

The reader is already fairly aware of when a POV character is explicitly lying because we are inside their heads. We are also usually told exactly why they are lying, or it's an issue of logic and common sense to figure out. For example, after Sansa is taken hostage, she'll say sweet nothings to or about Joffrey. These are lies and the reader knows they are lies and also knows why these lies are told. This isn't the same as Sansa misremembering a kiss. She thinks or hopes the kiss happened, something about that scene was important to her. Sansa's unreliability in this scene isn't the same as lying. The reader must evaluate why Sansa's memory of this scene is unreliable.

Another explicit lie would be Mel telling Jon the towers in her vision represent Eastwatch. We already know it's a lie and we know why (she wants Jon to trust her). An example of unreliability in her narration is when she thinks that Jon is keeping her waiting because he needs to wear his floppy ears and not show that he relies on her. She also thinks she must prove to him that she's powerful. But from Jon's POV, we know this isn't the case. He's not thinking about keeping Mel waiting and he already knows she has great power. Mel is seeing what she expects to see. She's not in Jon's head nor has she asked him about it so what she thinks is true makes perfect sense to her based on some obvious factors.

There are also instances of when characters unintentionally/unknowingly lie to themselves or are self-deluded. Tyrion is a good example. His actions are those of sort of an asshole (pre-ADWD, post-ADWD he's all asshole) but he tells himself that he's really awesome and he's just been misunderstood all these years because he's a dwarf.

We will most often see outright and intentional falsehoods from non POV characters. We aren't in their heads so we don't always know that they are lying or even why they are lying. Sometimes the POV character who being told a lie by a secondary character will not see it for a lie and/or the lie will become their truth. The reason there is a lot of disagreement about which element is false or unreliable is because it requires us to look over several different POVs and compare it to the timeline and what we already know to be positively true and then we must figure out the why.

An example that is easily agreed about would be the hired knives. Viserys told Dany there were hired knives after them. She had no reason to think he was lying. Yet, when we go back through the story, we know this is false. Robert had never sent assassins after them until Dany was married and pregnant. Why Viserys told Dany they were being hunted is the less agreed upon element. Since we don't have Viserys POV and because Dany was not in his head nor told why he said this, we have to look elsewhere to come to a conclusion and offer opinions.

There are examples that hotly divided. So many are divided because our own interpretation and opinions will differ. We process things differently due to various reasons like culture, experience, age, language or education. It's easy to gather up all the lies a POV character explicitly tells. We know they tell them and we usually know the why. It's not too hard to pick out when a POV is unintentionally lying to or about themselves themselves. These sorts of things are quite useful in character analysis.

It's a lot more difficult to create a comprehensive list of all instances of unreliability that would be easily agreed upon. No POV should be trusted 100%. They could not be 100% reliable. What is revealed about other characters is completely external. News and facts take a long while to move around, and often can be manipulated or changed by the time it reaches a character. Memory can be fallible. The background of each character will inform how they understand or perceive something.

If there are disagreements in a thread about unreliability or something similar, the best thing to do is to present all of the information and be open to scrutiny.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's a lot more difficult to create a comprehensive list of all instances of unreliability that would be easily agreed upon. No POV should be trusted 100%. They could not be 100% reliable. What is revealed about other characters is completely external. News and facts take a long while to move around, and often can be manipulated or changed by the time it reaches a character. Memory can be fallible. The background of each character will inform how they understand or perceive something.

I actually agree with most of your points, thank you. However I do feel that we can come up a list we can mostly agree on. No need to stop the thread. I'm sure there will be some points that are left undecided, but definitely some we can all agree on.

[Ser Not Appearing]

SNIP

That had to be full utilization of all 23 flavors because it was awesome.

[Gneisenau]

Um Ned did contribute to the destruction of Dany's family by joining Robert's rebellion.

[illrede]

Cersei remembering Tyrion jeering at her when Joffrey died.

[complexphoenix]

I do not believe that POV characters ever purposely lie to the reader. POV characters may be mistaken or misremembering or misperceiving, they may be leaving things out of what they tell us, they may be deluding themselves, but they never deliberately tell the reader something is true when they are fully aware that it isn't. The UnKiss is a case of misremembering, Ned leaves a lot of stuff out when thinking about stuff related to Lyanna and Jon, Cersei and ACOK Theon delude themselves, but I can't think of an instance where a POV character actually lied to the reader.