Black or Green? (Possible PATQ SPOILERS)

[Khal BlackfyreO]

You compair two totally different situations.

We have Cersei Lannister; a woman that from a young age has displayed signs of paranoia, abused her brother, killed her friend, started a incestious relationship with her brother since they were children, manipulated her brother at joining KG, emotionally abused her husband, deceived everyone at believing that her bastard children are her husband’s, abuse a teen girl, a mother who raised a monster like Joff, kills her husband, starts a war with her actions, is responsible for the deaths of Robert’s bastards, gives an order that leads to numerous deaths, fabricates a trial for her daughter in law etc.

Which of the next 2 is more like Cersei?

Behind curtain #1 we have Rhaenyra Targaryen; a woman who was raised and groomed to be the Queen, who was betrayed by what she called family (step mother, half brothers and half sister), who loses her 3 children because of a war that her step mother started, has a stillborn daughter, loses her father who was most likely killed by her step mother. After the betrayal from her family and the deaths of her children and father she becomes over protected, suspicious and she couldn’t trust anyone.

Behind curtain #2 we have Hellicent Hightower; a woman who became a Queen Consort knowing that Rhaenyra was the chosen heir, betrayed her Lord husband’s will and left him without burial for days in order to usurps her stepdaughter’s rights, most possibly killed her husband, spreads rumors about her step grandchildren in order to tarnish her step daughter's reputation, a mother who raised a monster like Aemond, who starts a war and is morally responsible for the deaths of her family and step family along with the death of thousands other peoples because she wants to be “King’s mother” and not only “Queen Dowager”.

I'm not concerned with Alicent, I barely see enough of her in the story to tell that much about her, maybe she is more like Cersei. I could also give reasons regarding a certain prophecy about why Cersei is so paranoid and negative, especially towards a little brother that is constantly trying to help her and his own family, but I've never been one to defend Cersei. In my posts I´m simply pointing out that a lot of the things that Rhaenyra did reminded me a lot of Cersei's actions and traits especially trusting the wrong people and then turning friends into enemies, regardless of how much an altered state Rhaenyra was in when she carried them out (or simply let people advise her badly as some suggest). If your point is that Alicent is more like Cersei than Rhaenyra, you´ve made a good case, but in my read, especially towards the end, I thought of Cersei when i saw what Rhaenyra did.

I am stunned by Khal's claims that Rhaenyra was the malicious one while Aegon's only bloodthirsty wish came after capturing her and it wasn't personal, and he wasn't bloodthisty at all, just tired and willing to end the war. How does that explain feeding some other people to his dragon and throwing everyone who had something other than kneeling obedience to offer into the black cells?

I don´t think she's more malicious than Aegon. I actually think the opposite. I do think Aegon was much more willing to spill blood than she was in the beginning, but that by the end he was tired of it and saw offing her as a means to end the war and the killing. I do think the war and his wounds and losing everything changed Aegon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm not concerned with Alicent, I barely see enough of her in the story to tell that much about her, maybe she is more like Cersei. I could also give reasons regarding a certain prophecy about why Cersei is so paranoid and negative, especially towards a little brother that is constantly trying to help her and his own family, but I've never been one to defend Cersei. In my posts I´m simply pointing out that a lot of the things that Rhaenyra did reminded me a lot of Cersei's actions and traits especially trusting the wrong people and then turning friends into enemies, regardless of how much an altered state Rhaenyra was in when she carried them out (or simply let people advise her badly as some suggest). If your point is that Alicent is more like Cersei than Rhaenyra, you´ve made a good case, but in my read, especially towards the end, I thought of Cersei when i saw what Rhaenyra did.

The point is that you compair two completely different situations. Cersei is a selfish, power hungry cold blooded murderer just like Hellicent. What Rhaenys did was done because she was betrayed by her own family which started a war that killed her children and then she became suspicious about everyone. They have nothing the same.

[Lord Varys]

Nothing indicates to me that Aegon was thinking strategically when he fed Rhaenyra to his dragon. Quite the opposite, actually. With her in custody he could have tried to negotiate a peace with her and/or her loyalists. Despite the fact that we don't yet know who continued the war in the name of Aegon III, I guess it's not unlikely that the gruesome manner of Rhaenyra's death along with the fact that Sunfyre did not actually survive the taking of Dragonstone, fueled the determination of the Blacks...

A real smart move on Aegon's part would have been to marry Rhaenyra himself. Thus he would have been able to put a stop to the war. Either by pulling a Ramsay Snow, or by impregnating his half-sister. Aegon and Viserys were actually greater threats to Aegon II than Rhaenyra, especially since his sons were apparently both dead.

By the way, what do you guys think happened to Aegon III? Did he remain in captivity throughout the remainder of the war, or was he freed early on and became the figurehead of the Blacks? I could see some members of the rabble that helped Aegon II take Dragonstone turn their cloaks yet again, especially after the unfortunate demise of Sunfyre. If Baela and Aegon III would escape soon after Rhaenyra's death the war could get hot again pretty soon...

On Alicent:

We should not be so certain that she was the driving force of the Greens. My money is more on Ser Otto than on Alicent. He is the one calling the shots during Viserys's illness as well as during the early days of Aegon II. I'm pretty sure he was instructing Alicent what to do, not the other way around.

As a character, Alicent is clearly more a Margaery than a Cersei. She is a proper woman who knows her place, at least in public. She does homage to her daughter, the new queen, she moves out of the royal apartments in Maegor's Holdfast, and so on. She apparently never lusted for power the way Cersei did. A characteristic she shares with Cersei, though, is her inability to see Aemond (and perhaps Aegon as well) for what he truly is. He is neither a great man, nor a smart one. Just a sadistic dumb ass with the biggest dragon alive.

On Helaena:

Well, the only thing we know for sure is that there her marriage to Aegon was no love match. We don't know if she played an active role in the Green party. Her reaction when she learned about her father's death may be telling. She did not much care about it, nor about Aegon. But that doesn't mean that she did not want to be queen. The fact that she descends into madness after the Blood and Cheese thing does not have to indicate that she was not a schemer herself...

[nara]

Team Black. My faves were Jace, Luke, and Joffrey. I thought Jace, in particular, would have been the best ruler of the lot because the courage and maturity he showed at age 15. (On a side note, it's amazing to me that, after the deaths of the dragons, the High Lords didn't all conspire to throw the Targs out. What a ridiculous amount of damage they caused!)

[Sansa_Stark]

If Rhaenyra had won in the end, I'm pretty sure she would have executed Aegon and Aemond, but I'm less convinced that she would have taken Daeron's head as well. Yes, she says she wants him dead to, when the Corlys asks her and Daemon to start offering pardons, but I'm not sure that the image of the woman we get from TPatQ confirms that she is bloodthirsty. If Prince Daeron had surrendered and asked his sister for forgiveness, she may have allowed him to take the black, or something like that. He was no man grown when the war broke out.

As to the SSM quote about her never forgetting a slight:

That's actually pretty old and may come from a previous conception of a more darker Rhaenyra. The one we meet in TPatQ may never forget a slight - although that's nowhere mentioned or indicated in the text - but she is neither vindictive nor without mercy.

People have been suggesting that her not killing Alicent was cunning move to secure a hostage against the Greens. But why did she then execute Ser Otto (who would also have been a good hostage as grandfather of her half-brothers, especially against the Hightower army). And when she left KL she apparently did not choose not to kill Alicent. She left her there to rejoin Daeron and the other Hightowers who were on their way to KL (that's what she apparently believed).

Rhaenyra never lost control over the Red Keep, and thus she had any opportunity to get rid of Alicent, Ser Tyland Lannister, and whoever was down in the black cells...

Just saw this.

Rhaenyra and Cersei never ever forget a single slight. That's how I see things and how GRRM and Tyrion see them.

That doesn't mean they punish all those people for said slights. They just don't forget about any single slight that has been done to them.

Its probably not an every person trait as George does not bring up the same issue with every other character.

Like before, the Alliser Thorne seems like an asswipe, but who's to say he wouldn't forget a potential slight from someone like Rhaegar(hypothetically)?

He's bitchy to Jon Snow yes.

But with Rhaenyra and Cersei they cannot forget any single slight, ever, even if they don't act on it.

[LordStoneheart]

Arya never forgets. The North remembers. Tywin also never forgot. The hornwood men... Viserys... basically anyone who was wronged is seeking revenge. If this one thing is what makes Rhaenyra like Cersei so be it, but its like saying they have the ability to feel anger, therefore they are parallels.

[Sansa_Stark]

Arya never forgets. The North remembers. Tywin also never forgot. The hornwood men... Viserys... basically anyone who was wronged is seeking revenge. If this one thing is what makes Rhaenyra like Cersei so be it, but its like saying they have the ability to feel anger, therefore they are parallels.

What I've been arguing this whole time is that neither Rhaenyra or Cersei ever forget any single slight.

Yeah, people seek revenge when wronged.

Its like when you read that Cersei started to hate Robert because he whispered Lyanna. She never forgot or forgave that. Hence petty.

The North remembers, yes. But do the northmen never forget every single, petty little slight that happens to them from anyone?

Does Arya?

Does Allister Thorne?

Does Ned?

Does Rhaenyra?

Yes.

Does Cersei?

I think so/

Maybe I should have been more clear with my words?

[LordStoneheart]

The answer to all those is yes.

[Sansa_Stark]

Well I am of the opinion that its not a trait relevant in every single character.

Its why Martin brought it up in Rhaenyra. And its why Tyrion criticized Cersei for it.

[HMR]

Rhaenyra was quite annoying, but the Greens had all the best characters.

[LordStoneheart]

Well I am of the opinion that its not a trait relevant in every single character.

Its why Martin brought it up in Rhaenyra. And its why Tyrion criticized Cersei for it.

Its relevant enough to influence their decisions (Arya's list, Eddard's continued distrust of Tywin). But this one trait does not make them parallels when their stories are completely different. Rhaenyra has a lot more in common with Daenerys (who by the way, also doesn't forget real or imagined slights) and Alicent has more in common with Cersei.

[Night'sQueen]

Black. I can't really even see how it's a question.

[White Ravens]

Blacks. I can't stand most of the Greens (Cole, the Hightowers, Aegon II, Aemond all suck). The only exceptions are Daeron, and Helaena. I really liked a lot of the Black loyalists (Roddy the Ruin, Red Robb Rivers, Benji Blackwood, Nettles, Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys, Addam).

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100682-princess-and-the-queen-spoilers-greens-or-blacks/?p=5202398

I support the Blacks not just because of Rhaenyra's claim but because the conspiracy against her shows me Greens were not fit to rule.

Say what you will about the Targaryens but this war was instigated by a Hightower and a Cole. I thought that was very telling.

Yes! and Yes!

Rhaenyra's right to rule should never have been challenged in the first place and most of the awesomeness in the tale was possessed by the Blacks.

[Sansa_Stark]

Its relevant enough to influence their decisions (Arya's list, Eddard's continued distrust of Tywin). But this one trait does not make them parallels when their stories are completely different. Rhaenyra has a lot more in common with Daenerys (who by the way, also doesn't forget real or imagined slights) and Alicent has more in common with Cersei.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slight?show=0&t=1391146253

Definition of slight.

Ned's distrust of the Lannisters is not because of some petty slight. Rhaenyra does not forgets any slight. When Ned says he wants to buy Gendry's helm, Gendry denies him and snatches it out of his hand. Its enough for Tohbo to look noticablely afraid and apologize. Ned then states there is nothing to apologize for. Ned is not so bad about slights.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slight?show=0&t=1391146253

Definition of slight.

Ned's distrust of the Lannisters is not because of some petty slight. Rhaenyra does not forgets any slight. When Ned says he wants to buy Gendry's helm, Gendry denies him and snatches it out of his hand. Its enough for Tohbo to look noticablely afraid and apologize. Ned then states there is nothing to apologize for. Ned is not so bad about slights.

I think the word you are looking for in conjunction with slights is petty. Cersei never forgets anything anybody did to her that was even a little bit negative, even if they did not intentionally do her a disservice.

That Cersei wants revenge on someone because they drank the last bit of wine before asking her if she wanted some would be petty.

That Eddard doesn´t trust Tywin because he entered a city under false pretenses and started to rape and pillage and gruesomely kill children does not really compare.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What I've been arguing this whole time is that neither Rhaenyra or Cersei ever forget any single slight.

Yeah, people seek revenge when wronged.

Its like when you read that Cersei started to hate Robert because he whispered Lyanna. She never forgot or forgave that. Hence petty.

The North remembers, yes. But do the northmen never forget every single, petty little slight that happens to them from anyone?

Does Arya?

Does Allister Thorne?

Does Ned?

Does Rhaenyra?

Yes.

Does Cersei?

I think so/

Maybe I should have been more clear with my words?

I think that I agree with you, I can't understand you 100%, but if what you are saying is that Rhaenyra never forgetted a slight because she was betrayed and wronged by everyone and especially by her family, then I agree 1000%.

[Sansa_Stark]

I think the word you are looking for in conjunction with slights is petty. Cersei never forgets anything anybody did to her that was even a little bit negative, even if they did not intentionally do her a disservice.

That Cersei wants revenge on someone because they drank the last bit of wine before asking her if she wanted some would be petty.

That Eddard doesn´t trust Tywin because he entered a city under false pretenses and started to rape and pillage and gruesomely kill children does not really compare.

Aren't slights by nature, generally petty?

I think that I agree with you, I can't understand you 100%, but if what you are saying is that Rhaenyra never forgetted a slight because she was betrayed and wronged by everyone and especially by her family, then I agree 1000%.

No, I think the "quick to anger and never forgot a slight" implied that Rhaenyra didn't forgive or forget even the slightest disrespect towards her no matter long ago they were.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, I think the "quick to anger and never forgot a slight" implied that Rhaenyra didn't forgive or forget even the slightest disrespect towards her no matter long ago they were.

Then I don't agree. But anyway methinks that not forgetting and start killing or conspiring to kill people are way different.

[mediterraneo]

I started the novel by strongly rooting for the blacks, maybe out of antipathy for court coupists and Carlton Cole's appearent betrayal (which I seemed to attribute to a spurned love).

So I imagine myself as one of the ones that, finding themselves on Dragonstone and not on King's Landing at the beginning of the hostilities has had no choice but being black.
If I survived the fights long enough, though, I'd have had growing and growing doubts, with the spirals of revenges growing.

Raenyra's death and Aegon II's undoubted kingship would have come as a reliefing piece of news to me as a minor to major lord, and I would have started earnestly the work of trying to make a real peace with my neighbour, with me and him having lost family members on opposite sides of the war.

If left with some capacity of autonoous action, I probably would have ended taking the initiative of organizing small scale, local truces gaining all the time I could to reduce the damage of the fighting. Moratories on combat, actual truce times, allowing some way of getting exempted by the worst effect of combats for parts of the bordering lands with my nearby enemies, and the people on their land.

To me, it was clearly too bloody for what it was worth, and any "stop the violence" would have been good enough, winning or losing a mill in it.
I ended the novel horrified by the carnage, without having a side.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

Aren't slights by nature, generally petty?

No, I think the "quick to anger and never forgot a slight" implied that Rhaenyra didn't forgive or forget even the slightest disrespect towards her no matter long ago they were.

Slights aren´t petty, people who constantly worry about them, no matter their gravitas, are. A slight is an insult, either intended or not.

Cersei takes it as an insult that a Stokeworth would name their son Tywin, when it is meant as an way to honor the man. That is both petty and haughty. But the slight is only perceived by Cersei, it is neither intended nor perceived by Falyse.