GRRM is a slow writer?

[sifth]

I think at the end of the day some of us long term fans just want some proof that GRRM is still dedicated to finishing the series and has the magic going. I have to say his dozens of side projects and his reveal last year that he only had about a quarter of the Winds of Winter finished was a pretty massive blow to my confidence in the man. He had more of ADWD already completed when he started the book in 2005 and we all know how long that book took the man

I know he says he's writing faster and he's dropped two of his side projects, but I just need some type of sign they he's working hard on the next book

[Kyle H]

I wonder if a good contemporary author to compare his writing speed to might be Diana Gabaldon. She writes similar-sized books (in fact, some of hers are actually longer than any of the ASoIAF novels - The Fiery Cross and A Breath of Snow and Ashes clock in [according to the author] around 500k words each]), has a similarly large, complex number number of characters, and has a similar writing style (in terms of being a gardener variety of writer).

For the most part, she releases a book every four years (though in truth I doubt her books have the same rush to the press that ASoIaF do - she hasn't indicated that her editor reads chapters as they are completed), which, in my opinion, is tantamount to releasing a 350 page novel (or there about) each year: a normal pace for authors writing normal-sized books (this doesn't take into account that it obviously takes more work to write a large novel in a series than it does to write normal-sized individual novels - the continuity checking etc. would be much more difficult). If she releases them every 4 years, it likely means she finishes the writing every 3 - 3.5 years. This release schedule seems perfectly normal to me. In addition, she writes novellas, short stories, and even novels related to her main series (Lord John Grey). The other thing that she does is she does, occasionally, update her fans regarding the status of her books: in fact I find her to be very forthcoming with information.

If the book comes out any time in 2015, and is as long as George estimates it will be, that will have been approx. 4 years since ADWD (plus or minus half a year or so), and comes out to roughly 105k words per year: again, around the size of a normal novel (granted he did have approx. 100 - 200 pages already finished carried over from Dance, and didn't do as much writing on Winds as he had hoped in 2012. Based on this, I would not label him as a slow writer.

Even for Dance and Feast, which took the longest time to release thus far, his word count per year isn't awful, especially given that for Feast he had to scrap a years worth of work, for Dance his editor estimates he wrote and unwrote probably just as much as the final product, and for both he needed to reevaluate his plan for the series.

What I do think is that he could be more forthcoming with information. The benefits of this would be twofold: we would get some kind of update as to how/where he is in the writing process (he seemed to do this occasionally for Dance on his NaB: he would say how his writing was going once in a while. Secondly, it would help avoid any hopeful/wishful thinking on our part, especially hearing things from secondary sources like Roy Dotrice and Liam Cunningham which might or might not be completely accurate. Of course George saying "I'm halfway done" could invoke feelings of anger in fans, or make fans hopeful for a speedier finish than he might deliver, but, I feel that here the pros outweigh the cons. In addition, we would have some indication on where the books stand in relation to the shows and potential overtakings.

As we can clearly see, the ASoIaF fandom is constantly clamoring for information, debating, arguing and wondering when the next book will come out and feeling slightly bitter that it is taking so long. I don't get this same feeling from the Gabaldon fandom: obviously they clamor for the next book, but, in a more positive mindset (at least that's how it seems to me).

I think the difference between the two authors is that Gabaldon seems to know that the priority is on the main novels, and her side projects do not seem to interrupt her writing schedule on the main novels. George's side projects and periphery obligations seem to distract him from the main novels.

In summary, no, I don't think he is a slow writer. I think sometimes he gets distracted, and I think he could be more forthcoming with information, but slow, no.

[The Human Abstract]

There are 2 distinct possibilities:

1) The middle books ( esp. ADWD) really were the exception. He struggled there and the last was certainly outside the normal trend in completion time. He even said as much to us.

If we believe 1, we can expect future books to be not quite as long as that.

2) ADWD indicates his slow down as an author and the fact that the series has gotten beyond him. He will go slower from on.

If we believe 2, this could suck.

...

There is actually no way of knowing which is correct, but take heart at least that the author says it's 1 and he's our best source of information.

[Grbauc]

Mod note:

The board style guide details this forum's guidelines for discussing GRRM and for disputing the moderators' decisions. On numerous occasions in the past, threads on GRRM's writing and professional life have devolved into negative speculation on his health and posts devoted to insulting him; when this happens, the thread is locked and deleted. If that restriction bothers you, I suggest that you focus your posts on other topics. Thank you.

Thank you for this.. I really enjoy this site. I consider it a Fan site and enjoy the many thoughts and subjects here...

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tolkien basically invented a genre.

Its the difference between going to the store, buying a box of raspberry jello then making some jello shots vs. raising a cow, slaughtering it, grinding the bones for gelatin, growing some grain, making some moonshine, harvesting some wild raspberries, then waiting for winter so you can chill the jello.

Having the foundations laid with all the dragons and other hominid species and magic and swords etc. makes things way easier.

Granted there had always been fairy tales with dragons and elves and such, but nothing approaching a novel.

William Morris, Lord Dunsany, E.R. Burroughs, E.R. Eddison, Arthur Machen, Abraham Merritt, Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance, and Mervyn Peake want a word with you.

[Grbauc]

I think at the end of the day some of us long term fans just want some proof that GRRM is still dedicated to finishing the series and has the magic going. I have to say his dozens of side projects and his reveal last year that he only had about a quarter of the Winds of Winter finished was a pretty massive blow to my confidence in the man. He had more of ADWD already completed when he started the book in 2005 and we all know how long that book took the man

I know he says he's writing faster and he's dropped two of his side projects, but I just need some type of sign they he's working hard on the next book

I painfully waited years for Stephen King to finish the Dark tower series.. I heard stories of people dying of cancer and begging him to tell them how the story finishes.. With SK his ending sometimes are not always great (I'm still fan even though I know this about him) I really feel he rushed the last books due to pressure.

I think with writers if the story in there minds hits a wall or writers block whatever you want to call it happens, time is the only way for the story to come alive or be rekindled if not you will get forced and sometimes fan driven ending that aren't always that good.

Now I have a feeling that there might be something of this with G.R.R.M but with the Dunk and Egg TPATQ it still show George has plenty to tell about ASOIAF. It will just take time Like good wine and has painful has that is, It most likely will be well worth the wait.

I'm a big fan of the Good guy wins and gets the girl and with G.R.R.M he writes in shades of Black Grey White that tend to reflect real life more. TPATQ really show's a map to how i think he's heading this towards. I know that the happy ending good guy wins most likely won't happen be the perfect ending but that's why im such a fan of his he's given me such a deep and rich story with a unhollywood like predictable ending that however it ends (if he ends it on his terms) i'll be satisfied..

[Jiriki]

William Morris, Lord Dunsany, E.R. Burroughs, E.R. Eddison, Arthur Machen, Abraham Merritt, Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance, and Mervyn Peake want a word with you.

Not Mervyn Peake. BitsOfBrains said "Having the foundations laid with all the dragons and other hominid species and magic and swords etc. makes things way easier." Peake wrote Fantasy novels, but his novels weren't about dragons, humanoid species, magic, or swords. He wasn't that kind of fantasy writer. (There was a talking lamb, though). BOB is right that modern fantasy was built largely in the mold of Tolkien. Certainly, the authors you list played a role, but mostly were rediscovered after Tolkien popularized the genre (or made it profitable: Peake, sadly, certainly didn't profit from his work: his plays were flops and his books were remaindered. "No man's a prophet in his own lifetime" and all that).

[Mickey2093]

Well, the forum rules are posted here. The bit about GRRM is there (9), as is not discussing mod actions in public (12). So it seems like they are being pretty up-front about it to me. I definitely agree with the GRRM rule since it is a matter of simple civility.

I kind of agree with your sentiment that mod actions could use a little discussion, but those are the rules we agree to when we participate in these forums. Seems like a good deal to me, all things considered.

I'm sorry... Since the posts were deleted, and I received a warning, and read this post, I've re-scoured those rules a number of times, and nowhere did I see that particular prohibition... (9) says that you can't attack or harrass - neither of which was done. And (12) says it's discouraged, not prohibited. Am I misunderstanding my native language?

I have no problem with abiding by rules and regulations, I just like to know what they are up front. That's no so much to ask, is it?

[Hangover of the Morning]

What's wrong with just "forgetting about ASOIAF" in between books? You know, read other things, get on with life?

Maybe do a re-read once the publishing date for book 6 is announced. Besides, there's always the TV show to enjoy (or bitch about) for few weeks once a year.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Not Mervyn Peake. BitsOfBrains said "Having the foundations laid with all the dragons and other hominid species and magic and swords etc. makes things way easier." Peake wrote Fantasy novels, but his novels weren't about dragons, humanoid species, magic, or swords.

The relevant bit was the assertion that "Tolkien basically invented a genre", and "there had always been fairy tales... but nothing approaching a novel." Which is false; Tolkien didn't invent a genre, just reshaped it. Peake's first two Gormeghast novels, like the others, pre-date the publication of LOTR (and I see I forgot to include Robert E. Howard). Even if we're talking the high fantasy, secondary world sub-genre, The Worm Ouroboros had that angle covered thirty years before LOTR.

Fantasy would exist without Tolkien. It'd just be a very different beast.

[Werthead]

See, the problem is, we aren't comparing GRRM to other authors, we're comparing GRRM to GRRM himself. It took him 2.5 years to write ACOK and 1.5 year for ASOS; and then five years for AFFC, almost six for ADWD, so I expect at least seven for TWOW (I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will). It's not that he's consistently slow writer. It's that once upon a time, he could write a great book in less than three years, and recently does not.

Incorrect. As has been started many times, he started writing AGoT in 1991 and ACoK and ASoS were both supposed to be part of it. He certainly did not write ASoS in the 20 months that elapsed between publication. Instead, he had very large chunks of ASoS completed when ACoK was published, and very large chunks of ACoK completed when AGoT was published. Sure, he was writing faster than now (almost twice as fast, in fact), but it's a total myth that he was bashing out the early books in just a few months each.

I believe it took Tolkien only 12 years to complete The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings

It took Tolkien 10 years to write (and 2 years to edit) Lord of the Rings, a book only marginally longer than A Dance with Dragons and A Storm of Swords. Bearing in mind that for the bulk of the time that Tolkien wrote LotR, he was not actually working full-time (Oxford closed almost all of its full-time courses during WWII as most of its target student demographic were fighting instead, running only short courses for the armed forces in support of military training), I'm not entirely sure how the comparison ends up in Tolkien's favour. He took almost twice as long to write only a marginally longer book.

How long did it take him to write kings and swords?

About six years, going by averages.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Incorrect. As has been started many times, he started writing AGoT in 1991 and ACoK and ASoS were both supposed to be part of it. He certainly did not write ASoS in the 20 months that elapsed between publication. Instead, he had very large chunks of ASoS completed when ACoK was published, and very large chunks of ACoK completed when AGoT was published.

And this tradition he continues, having leftover chapters from the earlier books to put in TWOW, and earlier with lots of the "Dance" already written when AFFC hit the bookstores. Just recall the famous note at the end of the "Feast": the author himself estimated it would take him only a year at most to finish it, polish and give to the editors.

[Mickey2093]

And this tradition he continues, having leftover chapters from the earlier books to put in TWOW, and earlier with lots of the "Dance" already written when AFFC hit the bookstores. Just recall the famous note at the end of the "Feast": the author himself estimated it would take him only a year at most to finish it, polish and give to the editors.

Exactly, so the original statements hold - regardless of people who, for some unfathomable reason, insist on wearing rose-colored glasses...

Don't get me wrong - I want the next books at least as much as everyone else, but hey - let's be realistic...

Just sayin...

[Mickey2093]

It took Tolkien 10 years to write (and 2 years to edit) Lord of the Rings, a book only marginally longer than A Dance with Dragons and A Storm of Swords. Bearing in mind that for the bulk of the time that Tolkien wrote LotR, he was not actually working full-time (Oxford closed almost all of its full-time courses during WWII as most of its target student demographic were fighting instead, running only short courses for the armed forces in support of military training), I'm not entirely sure how the comparison ends up in Tolkien's favour. He took almost twice as long to write only a marginally longer book.

Perhaps, but then again, look at the books themselves.

ADWD was, at best, half of the previous book - unable to stand on its own without the history of the previous novels. LOTR was completely self-contained - any history it needed was provided in the book. The world was well built, the characters had good depth, and the story was riveting.

Unless you limit the discussion to the number of pages in the books, forgetting the quality and content, then there isn't a soul, alive or dead, who can honestly say the same about ADWD...

[Don Roberto]

I don't think he's a slow writer at all. He's certainly not a fast one, but going for the other extreme seems unjust to me. Remembering he didn't take 5 years to write AFFC, by the time it was released he had writen both AFFC and huge chunks of ADWD. And while ADWD did take long to finish, he wrote much more than was actually published, such as three Quentyn chapters for the same event, a constantly rewriten Tyrion dream chapter that didn't make the cut, etc. Between his poor organization skills, his other works and his long book-signing tours and numerous conventions, one can say he's somewhat of a slow publisher. By his own estimates though, in a good year with few distractions he can churn out 500 pages of writen and revised manuscript pages, which for a complex work such as ASOIAF doesn't seem slow at all to me.

[Mickey2093]

I don't think he's a slow writer at all. He's certainly not a fast one, but going for the other extreme seems unjust to me. Remembering he didn't take 5 years to write AFFC, by the time it was released he had writen both AFFC and huge chunks of ADWD. And while ADWD did take long to finish, he wrote much more than was actually published, such as three Quentyn chapters for the same event, a constantly rewriten Tyrion dream chapter that didn't make the cut, etc. Between his poor organization skills, his other works and his long book-signing tours and numerous conventions, one can say he's somewhat of a slow publisher. By his own estimates though, in a good year with few distractions he can churn out 500 pages of writen and revised manuscript pages, which for a complex work such as ASOIAF doesn't seem slow at all to me.

and you don't consider that slow? really? I want to work for you...

[The Marquis de Leech]

It took Tolkien 10 years to write (and 2 years to edit) Lord of the Rings, a book only marginally longer than A Dance with Dragons and A Storm of Swords. Bearing in mind that for the bulk of the time that Tolkien wrote LotR, he was not actually working full-time (Oxford closed almost all of its full-time courses during WWII as most of its target student demographic were fighting instead, running only short courses for the armed forces in support of military training), I'm not entirely sure how the comparison ends up in Tolkien's favour. He took almost twice as long to write only a marginally longer book

On the other hand, Tolkien worked as an air raid warden during the war, and he did train up as a code breaker, even if he was never actually utilised. So he did have other stuff to keep him busy.

(The real difference though lies in the level of completion, LOTR is complete in its own right; Martin is writing instalments in an ongoing series).

[Werthead]

And this tradition he continues, having leftover chapters from the earlier books to put in TWOW, and earlier with lots of the "Dance" already written when AFFC hit the bookstores. Just recall the famous note at the end of the "Feast": the author himself estimated it would take him only a year at most to finish it, polish and give to the editors.

There weren't chapters written for ASoS delayed into AFFC, though, and those chapters delayed from AFFC into ADWD were revised and rewritten (some of them junked and some condensed down) even after they were 'finalised'. Not quite the same thing as the chapters held over for ACoK and ASoS, which as far as we know were left completely intact. There's also the matter that GRRM had something like 200+ MS pages of totally new material written after ASoS for the post-five-year-gap ADWD which were then junked in their entirety (as in, nothing survived into either the published AFFC or ADWD) which hasn't happened before or since.

A key question here is the status of the TWoW chapters. If GRRM has been rewriting and tinkering with them like he did for ADWD, all bets are off. If they have been left alone (as appears to be the case now), that may speed TWoW further along.

and you don't consider that slow? really? I want to work for you...

A 300-page novel - the length of a 'normal' book - on average takes between one and two years to write. Using GRRM's software, that would translate to about 500 manuscript pages. So, no, that's really not slow, especially not when you count the amount of rewriting he does as well. Note that back in 1982 and 1983 GRRM delivered two 350-page novels (Fevre Dream and The Armageddon Rag) in two subsequent years, from first drafts to final manuscripts (notwithstanding that he was much younger then), which is pretty fast even by modern standards.

The primary problem on the series has never been GRRM's raw writing speed. It's his editing style and his self-critiquing techniques, which you can call perfectionism or procrastination, combined with the quite immense lengths of the books, especially the 1,500 MS page monsters, and the approximate four to six months he loses per book in tours and publicity (at his publishers' requests, it should be noted).

[Big Daddy]

What's wrong with just "forgetting about ASOIAF" in between books? You know, read other things, get on with life?

I'm sorry. I can't understand what you are saying. :eek:

[Guest BigwigStandsHisGround]

...the approximate four to six months he loses per book in tours and publicity (at his publishers' requests, it should be noted).

Yes. I'm certain Mr. Martin's publishers requested he do a month-long promotional tour of Australia, a full two years after A Dance with Dragons was released. This after taking a year off after A Dance With Dragon's publication.

It's his life and he should enjoy his success to the fullest. I would. Still, readers who started the books eons ago are certain to be spoiled by HBO. The success we helped bring about has proved to be our doom. So it goes.