The "Malazan Book of the Fallen" thread.

[Arakasi]

I don't see why prose matters that much? Sure it's important, but no more so than characters, plot, world building, originality, consistency, etc. Kay has some very nice prose, but for the most part I dislike his stories. Martin of course writes well, but AFFC was a stinker with little of the qualities that made 1-3 so great. I think some of Erikson's dialogue could be improved, but I love how he describes scenes. Only Tolkien to me comes close to Erikson in scenes where I can close my eyes and imagine what's happening in my head.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I don't see why prose matters that much?

Look, this debate has been had a zillion times. For some on this board, prose is very important. I accept that you have a different opinion than I (or others) do on this point, but please accord us the same respect? I happen to feel that writers who cannot write well are generally...not worth the time, and no amount of world-building or awesome-as-fuck battle scenes is gonna change that. We read for different reasons -- or, to say, we read for the same reason (it's fun), but have different opinions on what fun is.

[Larry.]

Is this argument still going on, months and months later? Yeesh.

Oddly enough, despite liking Erikson's fifth book the best in terms of writing quality and characterizations, I've had little motivation to buy the 6th. Maybe I'll just get that and the 7th together in April...maybe.

Or maybe I'll be buying more out-of-print Whittemore to read.

[Arakasi]

Every couple months another erikson thread comes up. I don't think they'll ever stop.

As for prose/style vs substance, yeah I fall on the latter. In a world where nearly everything has been done before, I'd like to see more originality than something polished. Now of course polish can be great, but to me only if it supports a strong subject. Anyway that's all I have to say on the prose/style subject and will not comment anymore on that. I don't want to start this again.

[Sir Thursday]

I quite liked the focus on Karsa myself - I like Karsa as a character and I thought Erikson handled the single plotline very well. Nevertheless, I find House of Chains inferior to all the other volumes except perhaps Gardens of the Moon because I didn't feel that the climax was very powerful.

Gardens of the Moon was originally a film script that was subsequently turned into a novel. I think this explains the 'dropped right in the thick of it' feel, as it is something far more prevalent in the medium of film. The fact that the 9 subsequent volumes were commissioned long after Gardens of the Moon was written can also explain the disparities in writing style and the inconsistencies between GotM and the rest of the series.

Based on the hype from the advance readers over at malazanempire.com, it sounds like Reaper's Gale has the potential to surpass all the previous books...*salivates wildly*

Sir Thursday

[Werthead]

So while I think MoI is a great book, I don't think the majority of fans agree its the best out there.

I thought it was well-known that MoI is the MBF's answer to Storm of Swords (in that it is the most popular book in the series by far, as well as being both the third volume and the longest book in the series). A poll on Malazanempire confirmed this a while back. It garnered twice as many votes as DHG (out of a sample of ninety people).

[Xray the Enforcer]

Is this argument still going on, months and months later? Yeesh.

Oddly enough, despite liking Erikson's fifth book the best in terms of writing quality and characterizations, I've had little motivation to buy the 6th. Maybe I'll just get that and the 7th together in April...maybe.

Or maybe I'll be buying more out-of-print Whittemore to read.

Everything old is new again, doncha know?

[dingo]

I'd also like to chime in with a recommendation to keep going with the series. I would be seriously surprised if you end up regretting it. I also was less than impressed with GotM, but Deadhouse Gates kept me up quite a few late nites turning page after page. I think many of the problems you expressed with GotM you will not find in Deadhouse Gates. And with regards to the explanation for the way magic and the warrens work... well you will have to wait for Memories of Ice for a better explanation on that but it does get hashed out better eventually. If you don't enjoy Deadhouse Gates for some reason, then I wouldn't continue the series. But like most people around here will probably tell you, don't base your malazan opinions solely off of GotM.

[Larry.]

Everything old is new again, doncha know?

Indeed, and long time, no chattery, Shrimp! I know I've been überbusy with the two jobs, although I have an enforced break until Wednesday due to coming down with flu-like symptoms this weekend :sick:

Been ordering lots of books, though, making up for the year or so of having no money for purchases. Am eagerly awaiting the MacDonald to read, to see if it's as good as you've been implying it is. Have discovered that reading about fungi and fungi weapons doesn't freak me out as much as it used to (and damn that VanderMeer for getting me even more stoked for whenever Zamilon Files comes out!). I guess that means I have too many other options than to be ultra-psyched for Erikson now, huh?

But at least he hasn't gone into a hermit-like seclusion like the erstwhile object of man-lust of yours has. Where, oh where has the knobbly-kneed Bakker gone?

[Multaniette]

I think there's an important distinction to be made in the prose vs. substance debate.

There's a limit to the suspension of disbelief one can apply to the attrocity of prose, if you cross that (Robert Forward does that, Elizabeth Hayden excells at it, so does Greg Egan at places IMO) than no matter how great/world-shattering your ideas or story, they are no more than randomly scribbled letters stringed together rather a coherent, fluent story I can enjoy. At that stage it's no longer a matter of personal taste.

but really, Erikson is no where NEAR that point. His prose doesn't make me oh and ah like Helprin or Tolkien or Martin but it conveys the mode and meaning of the story exceptionally well. He certainly does possess a flair for the dramatic as well, which helps, specially in such an epic setting.

[Xray the Enforcer]

But at least he hasn't gone into a hermit-like seclusion like the erstwhile object of man-lust of yours has. Where, oh where has the knobbly-kneed Bakker gone?

I am beginning to suspect that he's been disappeared by a malevolent Goodkind supporter.

[Larry.]

You think mystar got him? The horrors!

That, or he's just avoiding responding to my email after I asked him how progress was going with AE

[Durckad]

I quite liked the focus on Karsa myself - I like Karsa as a character and I thought Erikson handled the single plotline very well. Nevertheless, I find House of Chains inferior to all the other volumes except perhaps Gardens of the Moon because I didn't feel that the climax was very powerful.

Yeah, I liked HoC, it was quite an enjoyable book with an interesting pace, pretty decent writing, and some good characterization. It also felt less pretentious than DHG and it was less hyped.

Only bad thing about it? Kalam is super boring, no matter what he's doing and

SPOILER: House of Chains

Karsa kills the Deragoth... wtf? All that buildup and he just... kills them? Bullshit.

[Spring Bass]

I've read about 250 or so pages into Book One, and all of Book Two.

To be honest, a bunch of little things bothered me, like the feel of the Bridgeburners (for some reason, every time I read one of their sections, I pictured Warhammer 40K Space Marines). Add onto that what felt kind of like an overdose in setting.

I think it would actually be terrific, though, if made into a television series with no editing and a high budget.

[Arakasi]

Bridgeburners are Erikson's homage to Glen Cook's Black Company. He's a big fan of his. So if you've read Cook you should see the similarities immediately. (Cook's company being akin to Vietnam soldiers in a fantasy setting)

[Lint]

I thought it was well-known that MoI is the MBF's answer to Storm of Swords (in that it is the most popular book in the series by far, as well as being both the third volume and the longest book in the series). A poll on Malazanempire confirmed this a while back. It garnered twice as many votes as DHG (out of a sample of ninety people).

I find it curious that I've never felt the need to distinguish a favorite book within Martin's series. With the exception of AfFC, I found all of the novels to be of an exceptional quality. It's a testament to Martin's writing that I've never felt the need to compare his work for ASOIAF because the previous three books have been so great.

And I'm not much of a stickler of mediocre prose if the story and characters are engaging. Unless the writing is outstandingly horrible, I can usually look past it. However, don't get me wrong, I'm also a sucker for some graceful prose as well. It's rare to find novels that are well-written that also have the combination of a compelling story along with magnetic characters.

And thanks Arakasi for answering my previous question.

[Rakov]

I don't see why prose matters that much?

I think I just witnessed the end of writing and literature altogether with those words! Un-be-liev-a-ble.

There's a limit to the suspension of disbelief one can apply to the attrocity of prose, if you cross that (Robert Forward does that, Elizabeth Hayden excells at it, so does Greg Egan at places IMO) than no matter how great/world-shattering your ideas or story, they are no more than randomly scribbled letters stringed together rather a coherent, fluent story I can enjoy. At that stage it's no longer a matter of personal taste.

Spot on, Mult. Try writing a novel, A, then you'll see why prose doesn't just matter, it is everything.

Music. I don't see why notes matter that much? Think about it.

[Kat]

Spot on, Mult. Try writing a novel, A, then you'll see why prose doesn't just matter, it is everything.

Music. I don't see why notes matter that much? Think about it.

Technically with Erikson (and some other authors), prose isn't everything....there is some poetry in the books as well.

Speaking of which...I only kindasorta read the poetry. Can anyone tell me if I'm missing out on a lot? There was one that I liked a lot...but...well...I don't have the patience for a lot of it.

[GardenGnome]

On second thought, this might contain spoilers. It doesn't really, but it gives you enough to ponder about what is to come in books you haven't read yet. Maybe. Anyway, it's about the poems, a reply to Katran

SPOILER: About poems

The poems give a nive atmosphere to the coming chapter, and also gives some hints to what you should expect. Perhaps one of my favourites would be the chapter with the battle of Coral, where it simply says "First in, last out - Bridgeburner saying". It doesn't seem that awesome at the first read, but then you ge back to it later, and you just think "oh my".

In fact, a lot of the poems means a lot more on re-reads than they do when you read it. For example. the first time you read DG, there's a poem by Temul, and you have no idea who Temul is. Then a few books later you find out, and you finally understand a lot more of what is going to come - namely that Temul will survive for a while longer. Some might say that this spoils parts of the coming books, but I have an inkling of suspicion that the relationship between Temul and the Malazan Empire wont be in the coming books.

Also, who is Fisher Kel Tath?

[Jerec]

I just finished Gardens of the Moon recently (picked it up for $2.50 Australian in a second hand bookshop, great condition too). I'd heard it was a tough read, since nothing is explained. I found that a little bit, but only here and there. I read slowly, and I picked up all I needed to. It was probably the really long chapters that caused me the most problems. I'm not a fan of 40 page chapters. The book's climax was amazing, though, and I really enjoyed reading it. I'll have to continue the series at some point.

But really, the only reason I'm reading this was because it was so cheap, and I needed something to help fill in that long, long wait for A Dance With Dragons.