Let's defend Cersei in this topic

[SeanF]

Actually this is fairly interesting (good catch). From later parts of the series and the epilogue of ADwD we know that Varys is capable of playing a far deeper and more cunning game, putting blame on the wrong parties. He may well be involved in ways that have yet to be revealed.

Murdering Robert's bastards serves no political purpose, since (with the possible exception of Edric Storm) none of them has any claim to be part of the line of succession, and none has been legitimised.

It may still be the case that Cersei wanted them murdered out of spite. But, I accept that things are rarely what they seem in this series and that my certainl belief that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, and Ser Hugh of the Vale turned out to be untrue.

[sifth]

Murdering Robert's bastards serves no political purpose, since (with the possible exception of Edric Storm) none of them has any claim to be part of the line of succession, and none has been legitimised.

It may still be the case that Cersei wanted them murdered out of spite. But, I accept that things are rarely what they seem in this series and that my certainl belief that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, and Ser Hugh of the Vale turned out to be untrue.

If I recall correctly Varys went out of his way to save some of Roberts bastards, such as Gendry. So unless there's someone else out there trying to kill them, I doubt it's anyone but Cersei

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Assuming that this is true, would you look forward to the day when this was scientifically detectable and support a program of Eugenics on that basis?

Ι don't understand what you mean.

[SkaggCannibal]

Cersei is a victim of the society she lives in. She tries to fight back in every way possible, not always in the best ways, but at the end of the day you can't blame her for doing everything she can to protect her children. Or so goes her defence.

[The Wolves]

Cersei is a victim of the society she lives in.

How?

[Winter's Knight]

seems like wishful thinking on his part at best. We do know the woman would do anything to keep her kids safe, including killing the man they believed to be their father. any worse than Tywin, lol

*Her

Killing Robert's children is pointless though-she knows there are sixteen, she knows where at least two others are and she never bothers to continue searching for Gendry or even think about him after the first failed attempt.

[Hajk]

Murdering Robert's bastards serves no political purpose, since (with the possible exception of Edric Storm) none of them has any claim to be part of the line of succession, and none has been legitimised.

It may still be the case that Cersei wanted them murdered out of spite. But, I accept that things are rarely what they seem in this series and that my certainl belief that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, and Ser Hugh of the Vale turned out to be untrue.

I have bolded the last part because it is crucial.

As WK has noted already, Cersei knew of other bastards and didn't go after them. Nor did she put much effort into chasing Gendry later. And varys is shifty enough to insinuate this even without it being true just in order to further the tension between Tyrion and Cersei. But the dearth of evidence and the suspicious circumstances are enough to give one pause.

Ι don't understand what you mean.

It was in the context of a discussion where some were pushing evil back to the earlier stages of childhood. The question was that if this is true and scientifically detetctable, then would this be an acceptable practice. The point was to illustrate how horrendous the moral consequences of such a POV could possibly be.

If I recall correctly Varys went out of his way to save some of Roberts bastards, such as Gendry. So unless there's someone else out there trying to kill them, I doubt it's anyone but Cersei

The point is that Varys did arrange to save Gendry, but not Barra, who incidentally was the very one to bring forth the strongest emotional reaction from Tyrion (he thinks of Tysha). He could have arranged to save her too. he certainly would have known of her. But he didn't.

[SkaggCannibal]

How?

It's a misogynistic patriarchal society that forced her in a position she didn't want to be in, and still does. She is forbidden to be ambitous, to have sex or do what she likes.

[The Wolves]

It's a misogynistic patriarchal society that forced her in a position she didn't want to be in, and still does. She is forbidden to be ambitous, to have sex or do what she likes.

She is in no way a product of her environment. Cersei is a very privileged woman who had a better life than 99.9999% of people in that world, she is not the only woman who lived in that type of misogynistic society, the "product of her environment" should not be excused for her evil twisted behavior.

Cersei was more than happy to be Robert Baratheon's queen and Queen of Westeros, she knew what was expected of her to be queen and she was more than willing, when her expectations were not met than that's when she started reflecting on how it wasn't fair to HER.

Cersei is a crazy, evil, twisted freak along with the rest of her monstrous family she should most certainly be forbidden to be ambitious about anything. Cersei does what she wants

[SkaggCannibal]

She is in no way a product of her environment. Cersei is a very privileged woman who had a better life than 99.9999% of people in that world, she is not the only woman who lived in that type of misogynistic society, the "product of her environment" should not be excused for her evil twisted behavior.

Cersei was more than happy to be Robert Baratheon's queen and Queen of Westeros, she knew what was expected of her to be queen and she was more than willing, when her expectations were not met than that's when she started reflecting on how it wasn't fair to HER.

Cersei is a crazy, evil, twisted freak along with the rest of her monstrous family she should most certainly be forbidden to be ambitious about anything. Cersei does what she wants

Because other women have accepted their inferior place, Cersei should too?

[Jasta11]

Because other women have accepted their inferior place, Cersei should too?

Tell that to Brienne.

Also, not accepting her inferior place =/= being a murderous, sociopathic bitch. There is a giant gap between the two.

Some of you guys are acting as if being oppressed gives you a blanket license to oppress others and make them suffers as much as you want.

[The Wolves]

Because other women have accepted their inferior place, Cersei should too?

Did I say that?

You were trying to explain Cersei's behavior with the bullcrap excuse that she was a "product of her environment" and I was saying that Cersei's heinous crimes should not be excused because of her environment.

Cersei is stupid just plain dumb she makes herself inferior

[Ingelheim]

Because other women have accepted their inferior place, Cersei should too?

Yes, you see how all the women wanted to kill children 200 years ago.

[IRON BANK]

Why do people think Cersei is this utterly evil character without redeeming qualities? She's no Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane.

Cersei is easily the most tragic villain in the series. She wasn't a evil girl growing up. She may have been cold and prideful, but that can be blamed entirely on her father. It wasn't until her marriage to Robert where he raped her constantly that she became evil.

In short, I would say Cersei really isn't evil at all. If she were raised by a decent man, and wasn't sold off to an abusive husband, she'd be more like a Catelyn Tully type figure.

As we've seen in AFFC, Cersei is NOT intentionally evil. All of her cruel acts are done to protect her and her children. Yes, she goes off the extreme in some cases, but who wouldn't be?

Tyrion the Valonqar. Jaime the betrayer. Tywin dead. Joffrey dead. Enemies everywhere.

That's my argument.

Ok ----- Cersie can not explain away current actions because of the failings of those around her. I can see why it could make a person bitter especially pertaining to the extremes of abuse Cersie faces. However a lot of this tragedy she has brought upon herself. For instance the incest has created alot of current problems for Cersie. Her drive for vengeance, lies, and greed gave compiled even more.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Because other women have accepted their inferior place, Cersei should too?

You could argue that the realm would have been spared a lot of death and bloodshed if she had.. just playing devils advocate.

Also I'm not so sure Cersei as an icon for progressive women, she is pretty much a disaster at everything she does.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Also I'm not so sure Cersei as an icon for progressive women, she is pretty much a disaster at everything she does.

Especially since she actually hates other women. She views herself as the sole exception to the 'women are weak' rule.

[SkaggCannibal]

I'm not saying she's without a fault, I'm just giving some back-ground info about Cersei to put it all into perspective.

[Cas Stark]

It's a misogynistic patriarchal society that forced her in a position she didn't want to be in, and still does. She is forbidden to be ambitous, to have sex or do what she likes.

The patriarchy does not cause her to be cruel and malicious. This is an excuse. And she is of course not forbidden from being ambitious, as the book is full of ambitious women, women who wield power and even who defy the conventions of their societies....and all without being cruel and malicious.

[Niamhikus]

ok, problems i have with this:

Why do people think Cersei is this utterly evil character without redeeming qualities? She's no Ramsay Bolton or Gregor Clegane.

Cersei is easily the most tragic villain in the series. She wasn't a evil girl growing up. She may have been cold and prideful, but that can be blamed entirely on her father. It wasn't until her marriage to Robert where he raped her constantly that she became evil.

In short, I would say Cersei really isn't evil at all. If she were raised by a decent man, and wasn't sold off to an abusive husband, she'd be more like a Catelyn Tully type figure.

As we've seen in AFFC, Cersei is NOT intentionally evil. All of her cruel acts are done to protect her and her children. Yes, she goes off the extreme in some cases, but who wouldn't be?

Tyrion the Valonqar. Jaime the betrayer. Tywin dead. Joffrey dead. Enemies everywhere.

That's my argument.

1. she was evil as a girl, huring baby tyrion made me sick, psychopath do that kinda stuff.

2, tywin may not win father of the year but jamie and tyrion are actually quite gallant in their own special lannister way, Cersei is by far the worst of his 3 children.

3. I dont think robert was abusive, i believe the only wrong he ever truly did to cersei was to not be able to love her as he loved Lyanna. This enraged her so much that even though she was relatively happy in the match at first that quickly changed because She could not replace Lyanna and this would be a hard pill to swollow for someone who thinks as highly of themselves as cersei.So she had to demonise robert.

4. her actions are not to defend her children, she is good at deluding herself into believing that she acts for the greater good, it makes herself seem nicer, more honourable. She acts firstly for herself.

Cersei constantly rewrites her history to suit her purposes and to whitewash her own sins. You see this constantly in ADWD.

[Jasta11]

I'm not saying she's without a fault, I'm just giving some back-ground info about Cersei to put it all into perspective.

Except, as others have said, it's an excuse that doesn't hold up. Even in the sexist society she grew up in, Cercei was basically the single most privileged woman in Westeros, second in power only to the King and great Lords, yet she still turned into what she is. Many other female characters that have gone through far worse (Brienne being a crowning example but there are more) yet didn't end up being sociopathic failures.