Small Questions v 10024

[Knight Of Winter]

Is there "Grand Riverlands conspiracy theory" or something similar floating around this forum? If so, could anyone kindly provide a link? :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Is there "Grand Riverlands conspiracy theory" or something similar floating around this forum? If so, could anyone kindly provide a link? :)

It's discussed extensively in the 4th iteration of the GNC thread and to a lesser extent in the current version. If you'll pardon a shameless plug :) I've also written about it offsite here.

[Don Roberto]

What exactly happened between Littlefinger and Catelyn? He tells everyone he plucked her flower, while she denies it even in her inner thoughts. Did LF drunkenly mistake Lysa for Cat? Or is he knowingly lying about it? Or did he actually do it, and Cat is the one confused/lying?

[RumHam]

What exactly happened between Littlefinger and Catelyn? He tells everyone he plucked her flower, while she denies it even in her inner thoughts. Did LF drunkenly mistake Lysa for Cat? Or is he knowingly lying about it? Or did he actually do it, and Cat is the one confused/lying?

It's never made totally clear, but I think most people agree he actually thinks he slept with both Tully sisters.

[FittleLinger]

As I understand it, he thought he slept with Cat cause he was drunk, but it was actually Lysa, but he was aware that Lysa liked him, that's why he later took advantage of her.

[Sator Arepo]

Why do people say that Tywin started the war because of Tyrion's capture by Catelyn? I don't remember if Tywin himself says this on the books or only in the HBO show, but anyway, people in the forums do.

He sent the Mountain to raid the Riverlands. That should basically hurt the smallfolk, with little impact to the Tullys and their bannermen. Anyway, Ned sent Berric Dondarrion after the Mountain to settle the matter. The actual war started when Robb went south and the Baratheon brothers declared themselves kings. None of these were due to anything Tywin did in retaliation to Tyrion's capture.

[FittleLinger]

I have a small question about Jon's last chapter in ADWD. Is it mentioned that he drinks, or doesn't drink wine at some point? Just anything wine-related? Someone with e-books might be of help. Thanks.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I have a small question about Jon's last chapter in ADWD. Is it mentioned that he drinks, or doesn't drink wine at some point? Just anything wine-related? Someone with e-books might be of help. Thanks.

Yes, he drinks mulled wine with Marsh and Yarwyck in his chamber.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, he drinks mulled wine with Marsh and Yarwyck in his chamber.

Yep, so I recalled it correctly. Right, does he comment on the wine in some way, and where is Ghost at that time (text-wise, has he been mentioned recently before or after the wine drinking)? And no, I'm not asking regarding to a possible poisoning of the wine, but a possible foreshadowing we had from before :)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why do people say that Tywin started the war because of Tyrion's capture by Catelyn? I don't remember if Tywin himself says this on the books or only in the HBO show, but anyway, people in the forums do.

He sent the Mountain to raid the Riverlands. That should basically hurt the smallfolk, with little impact to the Tullys and their bannermen. Anyway, Ned sent Berric Dondarrion after the Mountain to settle the matter. The actual war started when Robb went south and the Baratheon brothers declared themselves kings. None of these were due to anything Tywin did in retaliation to Tyrion's capture.

Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion was the casus belli for war. It was the first overt act of aggression in an escalating series of events.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yep, so I recalled it correctly. Right, does he comment on the wine in some way, and where is Ghost at that time (text-wise, has he been mentioned recently before or after the wine drinking)? And no, I'm not asking regarding to a possible poisoning of the wine, but a possible foreshadowing we had from before :)

He doesn't mention the wine after he asks Satin to bring it and the text states that Satin pours it. But Ghost is right there in the chamber. He's been acting strangely, pacing, bristling and baring his teeth. Mully and the Flea have been forced to stand guard outdoors because he's being so aggressive. He even bares his teeth at Jon. This is all relayed immediately before Jon sends Satin to summon Marsh and Yarwyck and bring the wine.

[FittleLinger]

He doesn't mention the wine after he asks Satin to bring it and the text states that Satin pours it. But Ghost is right there in the chamber. He's been acting strangely, pacing, bristling and baring his teeth. Mully and the Flea have been forced to stand guard outdoors because he's being so aggressive. He even bares his teeth at Jon. This is all relayed immediately before Jon sends Satin to summon Marsh and Yarwyck and bring the wine.

Thank you, you are awesome as always.

Well, the connection might not be the strongest one, but in Jon 3, ADWD, which is by the way the first chapter we get a hint about Marsh (he says to Jon something of the sort - "I am not a man to trust rumors, but rumors say you're getting too close to this king [stannis]. He isn't going to win and we will be doomed if we choose the wrong side...]), he drinks mulled wine with Clydas.

What's more interesting is that immediately before that, Ghost comes to him and Jon senses Ghost has killed and eaten game. This arouses Jon's apetite [for blood].Then Jon says, "No, I am a human, not a wolf", goes to Clydas and drinks the wine "to wash away the taste of blood in his mouth". This might be a hint/connection that Jon will warg into Ghost, as if to substitute the wine for blood.

A bonus - at the very end of this chapter, he says that Mormont's raven is his only friend (Bloodraven, death, Bran?) and that Ghost doesn't count because he is more - a part of himself.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thank you, you are awesome as always.

Well, the connection might not be the strongest one, but in Jon 3, ADWD, which is by the way the first chapter we get a hint about Marsh (he says to Jon something of the sort - "I am not a man to trust rumors, but rumors say you're getting too close to this king [stannis]. He isn't going to win and we will be doomed if we choose the wrong side...]), he drinks mulled wine with Clydas.

What's more interesting is that immediately before that, Ghost comes to him and Jon senses Ghost has killed and eaten game. This arouses Jon's apetite [for blood].Then Jon says, "No, I am a human, not a wolf", goes to Clydas and drinks the wine "to wash away the taste of blood in his mouth". This might be a hint/connection that Jon will warg into Ghost, as if to substitute the wine for blood.

A bonus - at the very end of this chapter, he says that Mormont's raven is his only friend (Bloodraven, death, Bran?) and that Ghost doesn't count because he is more - a part of himself.

:D

Those are very interesting connections! I wonder if it's significant that in the last chapter when Jon sends Satin on his errand, the raven is also there, as agitated as Ghost, repeating "Snow! Snow! Snow!"?

[mindchap]

Thank you, you are awesome as always.

Well, the connection might not be the strongest one, but in Jon 3, ADWD, which is by the way the first chapter we get a hint about Marsh (he says to Jon something of the sort - "I am not a man to trust rumors, but rumors say you're getting too close to this king [stannis]. He isn't going to win and we will be doomed if we choose the wrong side...]), he drinks mulled wine with Clydas.

What's more interesting is that immediately before that, Ghost comes to him and Jon senses Ghost has killed and eaten game. This arouses Jon's apetite [for blood].Then Jon says, "No, I am a human, not a wolf", goes to Clydas and drinks the wine "to wash away the taste of blood in his mouth". This might be a hint/connection that Jon will warg into Ghost, as if to substitute the wine for blood.

A bonus - at the very end of this chapter, he says that Mormont's raven is his only friend (Bloodraven, death, Bran?) and that Ghost doesn't count because he is more - a part of himself.

:D

Those are very interesting connections! I wonder if it's significant that in the last chapter when Jon sends Satin on his errand, the raven is also there, as agitated as Ghost, repeating "Snow! Snow! Snow!"?

Thus giving us the J=G theories. As much as I would hate Jon actually dying, I could accept it if he ended up in Ghost and him and the Raven are the ones who take us further north. :)

[FittleLinger]

:D

Those are very interesting connections! I wonder if it's significant that in the last chapter when Jon sends Satin on his errand, the raven is also there, as agitated as Ghost, repeating "Snow! Snow! Snow!"?

Well, yeah, in a sense. A part of himself - Ghost - is hungry for blood, the human part of himself - Snow - substitutes it with wine (because he has "human" business to do), and his only friend - the Raven - is alerting the Snow part to be careful. After all, the raven is not screaming "Ghost, ghost, ghost", since the Ghost part knows what's up ;)

Plus, a man, a wolf, then a man again (Mel vision), as well as Ghost's name are very fitting for a dead/dying person warging into him.

Combine all this with the prologue of the dying warg, and I am utterly convinced.

What if the following happens - Mel does revive Jon's body, but his mind, soul, essence, whatever you call it is already in Ghost, and then returns to "fire-wight" Jon, thus not suffering the effects of the fire kiss we see with Beric and Uncat, but instead receiving a fully sensible, more feral, more in-tune with his old gods side (because of the death-warging experience) and pissed off Jon?

[mindchap]

Well, yeah, in a sense. A part of himself - Ghost - is hungry for blood, the human part of himself - Snow - substitutes it with wine (because he has "human" business to do), and his only friend - the Raven - is alerting the Snow part to be careful. After all, the raven is not screaming "Ghost, ghost, ghost", since the Ghost part knows what's up ;)

Plus, a man, a wolf, then a man again (Mel vision), as well as Ghost's name are very fitting for a dead/dying person warging into him.

Combine all this with the prologue of the dying warg, and I am utterly convinced.

What if the following happens - Mel does revive Jon's body, but his mind, soul, essence, whatever you call it is already in Ghost, and then returns to "fire-wight" Jon, thus not suffering the effects of the fire kiss we see with Beric and Uncat, but instead receiving a fully sensible, more feral, more in-tune with his old gods side (because of the death-warging experience) and pissed off Jon?

I was actually thinking that, he may end up coming back as The Great Other. Jon ends up living on through Ghost and Mel invokes her own worst enemy.

[Cubarey]

Stupid question but has anyone ever commented that if Jon does die and is revived his vow to serve in the brotherhood would have been forefilled and he would be free to accept stannis offer/Rob's decree?

[mindchap]

Stupid question but has anyone ever commented that if Jon does die and is revived his vow to serve in the brotherhood would have been forefilled and he would be free to accept stannis offer/Rob's decree?

Try starting here :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What exactly happened between Littlefinger and Catelyn? He tells everyone he plucked her flower, while she denies it even in her inner thoughts. Did LF drunkenly mistake Lysa for Cat? Or is he knowingly lying about it? Or did he actually do it, and Cat is the one confused/lying?

The app gives this, which someone was kind enough to quote entirely:

Raised with Lord Tully's daughters and son, Petyr shows a certain precocious cleverness and a gift for mischief. He also develops an infatuation with Catelyn Tully, despite the fact that she is well above his station. The younger Tully sister, Lysa, is similarly enamored of Petyr. When Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon Stark is announced, young Littlefinger gets himself well and truly drunk. That night, he is visited in his chambers by Lysa, who gives him her maidenhead. But in the throes of passion, it is Catelyn's name that he calls out and he is convinced that she was the one he slept with.

When the date of Catelyn's wedding to Brandon Stark is announced, and seeing the woman he loves about to slip away forever, Littlefinger challenges Brandon for her hand—despite being little more than fifteen years of age while Brandon is already a man grown. Catelyn begs Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life, but Petyr repeatedly refuses to yield, despite being overmatched. It is only when Brandon wounds him severely that he finally concedes the match.

Lysa tends to his injuries, and in the process beds him again, at which point she conceives a child. After Littlefinger is sent back to the Fingers in disgrace, she reveals her pregnancy to her father in the hopes that he will relent and allow her to marry Petyr. Instead, Lord Hoster forces her to drink moon tea to purge herself of the pregnancy. Lysa nearly dies in the process and never forgives her father for that act, or the fact that it will eventually lead to her marriage to the much older Jon Arryn, who both needs a fertile wife to secure his line and also requires Lord Tully to join the rebels.

So to answer your question in short: LF believes he slept with Catelyn, while in fact it was Lysa. This due to his being so drunk that the Blackfish had to carry him upstairs. He later sleeps with Lysa (knowinng it's Lysa), and gets her pregnant. So in a way they both speak the truth. Catelyn knows that she didn't sleep with LF, and LF is convinced that he did sleep with both sisters, even though in reality he slept with Lysa twice and never with Catelyn.

What I find interesting about all of this is the fact that the betrothal seems to have been announced earlier than the duel took place (as most people IIRC thought). That also explains why Jaime knows about the betrothal when he is a squire and is visiting the Tully's. At that point, the betrothal is already known, though there is no wedding date yet. When LF hears about the wedding date, he actually sees Catelyn slipping out of his hands forever, and challanges Brandon to a duel for her hand, which ends badly for him.

What I also found interesting is that Lysa appears to be wrong about one thing: According to Lysa, Hoster meant for LF to spend the "rest of his life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets" because of his duel with Brandon, but because he had gotten her pregnant. I always found this strange, since LF was only in recovery for 2 weeks before leaving Riverrun, and no one notices a pregnancy that quickly.

But interestingly enough, Lysa seems to have tried to get LF back. Hoster did send LF away because of his duel (it would not do to insult your daughters husband to be by letting her suitor hang around until the wedding), and not because of his affair with Lysa. Once Lysa noticed she was pregnant, she went to Hoster convinced that he'd let her marry LF in order to keep the child from becomming a bastard. The pregnancy must still have been in an early stage, since no one else arround her noticed it (perhaps when her period no longer came for the first time?). Hoster, of course, did not agree, and the moon tea business begins.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

What I also found interesting is that Lysa appears to be wrong about one thing: According to Lysa, Hoster meant for LF to spend the "rest of his life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets" because of his duel with Brandon, but because he had gotten her pregnant. I always found this strange, since LF was only in recovery for 2 weeks before leaving Riverrun, and no one notices a pregnancy that quickly.

A random thought on this curiosity - if Lysa kept dancing around Hoster yelling at him she was carrying Petyr's child (being convinced it must be true), Hoster could have picked up the meme then and there. Nothing on this in the text that I remember though.