Second Game of Thrones Trailer Premieres

[Metopheles]

He said "I want you" but he stopped himself, after making her strip and groping her. After forcibly marrying her. This was not a marriage arranged by the families, this was an act of aggression to take Winterfell. Robb thought they'd kill her after they got what they wanted, he wanted to free her by chopping off Tyrion's head.

Most of the marriages in the series we know are forcibly.

How is one right, not the other ?

Tyrion and Sansa is still better than Lysa and Jon Arryn.

And how did Catty say, She didn't want Ned at first. They learned to love each other.

Tyrion and Sansa may wouldve done the same.

!!! I DO NOT SAY GROPING AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS GOOD!!!

It is one thing to whitewash a character, but villainize him ??

[Annara Snow]

Most of the marriages in the series we know are forcibly.

How is one right, not the other ?

No, they are not. Arranged marriage and forced marriage is not the same thing. Catelyn could refuse to marry Ned, but she thinks to herself that she was dutiful and did what her father expected, meaning that she was not threatened or forced, it was a choice. On the other hand, Hoster doesn't seem to have left Lysa a choice.

But Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and Lady Hornwood's and fArya's marriage to Ramsey are most obviously forced, and so would be Alys Karstark's marriage to her uncle if it had happened (while her actual marriage was arranged - by Jon - but was of her own choice)... meaning that they happened at swordpoint, with the bride being a hostage/prisoner and being threatened in no uncertain terms, all in order to steal her inheritance and her family's lands, or to justify this, and preferably to get a child - new heir from her, which would render the survival of the bride herself unnecessary (which Alys knew her great uncle was planning, and which Robb thought the Lannisters were planning... and there is no reason to think it was not what Tywin was planning, he certainly made it clear to Tyrion that he wanted an heir). We saw that with Sansa in the books, she was plainly told that she had to go with the two KG knights or she would be dragged to the altar, and that she would be wedded and bedded whether she wanted it or not.

And how did Catty say, She didn't want Ned at first. They learned to love each other.Tyrion and Sansa may wouldve done the same.

Because Stockholm Syndrome rocks, people with no romantic interest in each other should learn to love each other just because, feeling sexually repulsed by someone is a great first step on the road to future happiness, there's no greater happiness than marrying into the family who's killed half your family and been keeping you hostage, and Tywin Lannister is the world's greatest matchmaker and what he joins no man should put asunder, right?

It is one thing to whitewash a character, but villainize him ??

Who was "villanizing" Tyrion? Saying that he didn't have the right to expect her to eventually "come around" and consent to have sex with him is villainizing him?

[Le Cygne]

There are marriages arranged by the families (or the parties themselves) or forced marriages (like this one, and the Ramsay Bolton marriages).

This was not arranged with the consent or for the benefit of both families. It was an act of aggression to take Winterfell from the Starks.

Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion, the vows were said at swordpoint:

“I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.”

“You can’t make me.”

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. “Escort Lady Sansa to the sept,” she told them. “Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly.”

[joachim]

I shudder to think what the wedding night scene would've been like if they'd hewed closer to the book. It could've impacted Peter Dinklage's career. I mean, complete strangers called Aaron Eckhart "asshole" to his face for years after In The Company of Men.

[Woman of War]

Look, Annara, I gave a very personal answer, an answer that does not ask for being dissected but that said: I understand your viewpoint and accept it as valid in all its irrationality so now I tell you mine who will be just as irrational in your eyes.

Maybe it would have been polite to let it be for the moment. But I guess I am naive in expecting a certain netiquette while it is the nature of this medium to hit wherever you can.

I should have learned by now that putting an opinion in relation to personal history is not seen here as the analytically correct and scientifically honest thing to do, as it would be within any social or literature analysis that wants to be taken seriously. It is simply naive to expect that in these forums since the debate here is not about learning but about winning. Cock comparing. :)

I think I am cured from any approach here, as by the way a feminist approach would be, to admit that the object observed changes with the subject that observes. I could fight bloody as well but the evening is too nice for a waste of time. Go on happily with being the only one who is right.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as "netiquette" here. It's certainly not against netiquette to disagre about things such as the actions of characters in the story. Obviously, you can't be "wrong" about liking a character more than some other character, or relating to a character more. But the things that the characters do are very much in the domain of the things to disagree about. The fact is that Tyrion's position as a Lannister, for a while even the Hand of the King, gave him a lot of power. He may not be able to go around killing people, but he was able to send Bronn to murder someone he saw as a threat. He would have been able to rape Sansa if he had wanted to, since she was aware that she was a hostage surrounded by Lannisters and their men. We've also seen Tyrion try to control Shae, slap her and eventually strangle her. We also saw him come close to raping Sansa, including groping her breast and making her see him naked and erect, and then there's also the slave in Essos (the last time he was in more powerful position than someone). It's not like mocking and words are the only way he can hurt people.

I get that you personally wouldn't feel threatened by Tyrion and you would by Sandor, but you seem to be saying that Tyrion is objectively not threatening except for the possibility he may mock or emotionally abuse someone, and I don't think the text supports this.

I know that you may be sarcastic here or strictly referring to Tyrion's feelings on the matter, but really, the idea that a woman rejecting sex with a man (not to mention a 1 a man she's been forced to marry) can be seen as an insult to his manhood, is a big problem in itself. Though it's not so surprising that Tyrion felt that way, considering the culture he grew up in, and his own issues and insecurities.

Anyway, you are right, this should be a discussion for another topic. (And hopefully it wouldn't get locked soon...)

You did not answer at all to what I wrote we simply argued on very different levels. I tried to get an understanding of two women with diffferent ideas about a book and about feminst political issues and I tried to do it in an understanding way. While you saw my suggestion to simply understand each other as weakness where I had opened my cover for you to hit. Netiquette indeed would be asked here and the willingness to see feminism as political issue where women work together, not against each other.

....but really, the idea that a woman rejecting sex with a man (not to mention a 1 a man she's been forced to marry) can be seen as an insult to his manhood, is a big problem in itself.

I do not know what you mean here since the whole sentence is totally unrelated to what either you or I wrote.

I guess the debate has gone down the drain by now and can hardly be led back to a productive exchange about literature. It has simply degenerated into a lowlevel cock comparing contest.

[Jellyfish]

You did not answer at all to what I wrote we simply argued on very different levels. I tried to get an understanding of two women with diffferent ideas about a book and about feminst political issues and I tried to do it in an understanding way. While you saw my suggestion to simply understand each other as weakness where I had opened my cover for you to hit. Netiquette indeed would be asked here and the willingness to see feminism as political issue where women work together, not against each other.

I do not know what you mean here since the whole sentence is totally unrelated to what either you or I wrote.

I guess the debate has gone down the drain by now and can hardly be led back to a productive exchange about literature. It has simply degenerated into a lowlevel cock comparing contest.

agree, Woman of War and I am sorry for what happens here.

i do not understand all this. Woman Of War answered in a perfectly kind and sensitive way to a question you asked, annara Snow, and and you answer not with the same friendly understanding but with aggression. this is poor style. and this discussion should be over now, if two women can't talk a little more personal without getting pissed on then every feminsm is worthless.

anyway the thread is at the wrong place and it should be closed for bitching at a woman who dared to be open.

i am new to this forum and seriously dissappointed because here it is not about the books but about being right. among my friends where i come from we disagree but we love the books.

[Woman of War]

Thank you Jellyfish, you restored my belief in (Wo)mankind. :bowdown:

I shudder to think what the wedding night scene would've been like if they'd hewed closer to the book. It could've impacted Peter Dinklage's career. I mean, complete strangers called Aaron Eckhart "asshole" to his face for years after In The Company of Men.

Really??

I think Dinklage's career would not have been affected at all, playing the scene in all its intensity would have bee great (leave out the boner, please). And it would not have been "gratitious" nudity at all. The nakedness would have presented both characters in all their helpless vulnerability, as it was meant by Martin. It was cruel to the characters and it would be cruel to the actors too in a way, maybe too cruel. I guess here the actors simply would not have agreed to and it is their choice, we cannot expect them to go against their own feelings, not even for the sake of absolute authenticity.

And Tyrion precisely did not do the deed. It would for sure not have ruined McCann's career if he had had a knife at Sansa's throat. Or do you think Iwan Rheon's career is ruined by now? Having good ambiguous, dark or ambivalent scenes promotes the career of an actor, they all WANT to play villains, at least the quality actors.

But of course they could not do the scene in all detail. They could not show Turner naked for age reasons nor Dinklage with a boner (sorry, Mr Dinklage, really) obviously. This would go too far.

But Tyrion may get darker still, he may get ugly sex - would that ruin Dinklage's career? Certainly not, it would show the range of his acting abilities.

Apart from that - why do people freak out over sex related scenes (I know rape is torture not sex) while no one suggests that chopping someone to pieces or starring at Pulp Fiction might ruin an actor's career?

[Annara Snow]

You did not answer at all to what I wrote we simply argued on very different levels. I tried to get an understanding of two women with diffferent ideas about a book and about feminst political issues and I tried to do it in an understanding way. While you saw my suggestion to simply understand each other as weakness where I had opened my cover for you to hit. Netiquette indeed would be asked here and the willingness to see feminism as political issue where women work together, not against each other.

I do not know what you mean here since the whole sentence is totally unrelated to what either you or I wrote.

I guess the debate has gone down the drain by now and can hardly be led back to a productive exchange about literature. It has simply degenerated into a lowlevel cock comparing contest.

It may have something to do with the fact that I wasn't addressing you at all?

agree, Woman of War and I am sorry for what happens here.

i do not understand all this. Woman Of War answered in a perfectly kind and sensitive way to a question you asked, annara Snow, and and you answer not with the same friendly understanding but with aggression. this is poor style. and this discussion should be over now, if two women can't talk a little more personal without getting pissed on then every feminsm is worthless.

anyway the thread is at the wrong place and it should be closed for bitching at a woman who dared to be open.

i am new to this forum and seriously dissappointed because here it is not about the books but about being right. among my friends where i come from we disagree but we love the books.

Please tell me where exactly I showed "aggression" or "bitched at" someone for being open about something. Provide the quotes.

Or does expressing a different opinion about a fictional character now count as "aggression" and "bitching"? I am really curious.

And explain what exactly it has to do with her being open or personal, since I didn't make any comment about her personal life.

The only aggression, bitching and complaining going on here is coming from WoW and you.

[Rashtibram]

I think Dinklage's career would not have been affected at all, playing the scene in all its intensity would have bee great (leave out the boner, please). And it would not have been "gratitious" nudity at all. The nakedness would have presented both characters in all their helpless vulnerability, as it was meant by Martin. It was cruel to the characters and it would be cruel to the actors too in a way, maybe too cruel. I guess here the actors simply would not have agreed to and it is their choice, we cannot expect them to go against their own feelings, not even for the sake of absolute authenticity.

You're probably already aware of this, so this post might be a complete waste, but I think the main reason they didn't show the nudity in that scene was because Sansa's actor is a minor and is legally forbidden from being naked on camera.

[Annara Snow]

Renowned actors have played serial killers, rapists, torturers, war criminals, child abusers, or Adolf Hitler, and it has certainly not ruined their careers, as a matter of fact, many have gained awards, nominations and rave reviews. Playing a monster was a career boost for many actors. Ralph Fiennes became a star by playing a despicable, sadistic nazi. I'm sure that Iwan Rheon's career will get a big boost from GoT.

[Le Cygne]

i am new to this forum and seriously dissappointed because here it is not about the books but about being right. among my friends where i come from we disagree but we love the books.

Actually there is another forum for personal life discussions:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/10-general-chatter/

[Woman of War]

You're probably already aware of this, so this post might be a complete waste, but I think the main reason they didn't show the nudity in that scene was because Sansa's actor is a minor and is legally forbidden from being naked on camera.

But I wrote that!

And of course I would always respect those legal restrictions. First of all the actors must absolutely agree with the way they present themselves on screen.

[Rashtibram]

But I wrote that!

And of course I would always respect those legal restrictions. First of all the actors must absolutely agree with the way they present themselves on screen.

So you did. Sorry, I must not have read your post carefully enough, it just sounded like you thought the reason they didn't show nudity was because the actors objected.

[Metopheles]

I see absolutely no difference in a arranged marriage and a forced marriage when it comes down to examples of

Dany and Drogo

Aerys and Rhaelly

Lysa and Jon

Cat and Ned

Jeyne and Ramsay

Cersei and Robert

Tyrion and Sansa

.

.

.

They all did not want to marry each other. I don't care if their mommys and daddies wanted the marriage, I care about the couple.

Only because you like one of these characters and despise the House of the next does not make it better. Lysa was definitely raped and she was only 16 with a 55 year old. But you don't even consider this, as you all love the whole Tully Arryn Stark triangle... Don't come me with the House behind it killed blablabla. The same can be said for Tyrion. Why would he marry Sansa, whose family holds his beloved brother?

[Metopheles]

You're probably already aware of this, so this post might be a complete waste, but I think the main reason they didn't show the nudity in that scene was because Sansa's actor is a minor and is legally forbidden from being naked on camera.

weren't the children in the scene outside LF brothel all nude ? just curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HYsmn96ccE

That is so wrong..

[Koi No Yokan]

A little unrelated, but came across an article where Amy Poehler casts GoT characters with Parks & Rec characters. Thought it was funny!

Last year, Parks and Recreation co-creator Michael Schur wrote on his Twitter account, "FWIW, I'm pretty sure the cast and writers would be up for a 100% cross-over season with Game of Thrones, if they were into it." It appears Amy Poehler would definitely be into it. We already knew she was a fan and she proved it by completely nerding out in an interview with Time Out New York by running through which GoT character each Parks character would be:

"Well, come on, I would be Khaleesi [Daenerys Targaryen], of course. Ben would probably be Jon Snow, because he’s so tormented. Ron would be Stannis Baratheon ... And Tom would be … Uh oh, I hate to break it to Aziz [Ansari], but Tom would be, like, Theon Greyjoy, which is not good right now. Ann would be Sansa, April would be Arya, and Andy would be one of the dragons."

http://www.vulture.com/2013/07/poehler-casts-game-thrones-parks-rec-characters.html

[Rashtibram]

weren't the children in the scene outside LF brothel all nude ? just curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HYsmn96ccE

That is so wrong..

Holy shit, that's on youtube?????? How?

[The Drunkard]

weren't the children in the scene outside LF brothel all nude ? just curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HYsmn96ccE

That is so wrong..

...

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

:worried:

[Metopheles]

I guess they were all 21 by the time of the shooting ;)

Comon guys, there are millions of movies with such nudity. There are nude beaches all around the world, saunas. Grow up guys. Only someone with dirty thoughts by viewing this, is dirty.

Come to think of it.. you can't even say in the books there is no child nudity. Watergardens. I was like wtf when Doran admitted to watching the children, but when he spoke with Arianne about the meaning of it, it was right, no? He did it as metaphor for equality.