The Brightfyre theory

[Lady Blizzardborn]

We Have this...

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

" . . . the risk . . . "

And this...

"If any of them were hiding in the tower, we would have found them. I've had a small army going at it with picks and hammers. We've knocked through walls and ripped up floors and uncovered half a hundred secret passages."

"And for all you know there may be half a hundred more." Some of the secret crawlways had turned out to be so small that Jaime had needed pages and stableboys to explore them. A passage to the black cells had been found, and a stone well that seemed to have no bottom. They had found a chamber full of skulls and yellowed bones, and four sacks of tarnished silver coins from the reign of the first King Viserys. They had found a thousand rats as well . . . but neither Tyrion nor Varys had been amongst them, and Jaime had finally insisted on putting an end to the search. One boy had gotten stuck in a narrow passage and had to be pulled out by his feet, shrieking. Another fell down a shaft and broke his legs. And two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel. Some of the other guards swore they could hear them calling faintly through the stone, but when Jaime's men tore down the wall they found only earth and rubble on the far side. "The Imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out."

Thanks for the info.

The chamber with skulls and yellowed bones doesn't necessarily indicate the "little birds" though as there's no mention of the size of the bones. I'd imagine they would want to kill them before they got old enough to think to tell anyone else the secrets, so they wouldn't be full-sized skeletons. The yellowing suggests those are old bones as well. If Varys is offing his informants he's probably ditching the bodies elsewhere. Keeping them in the castle would be too dangerous.

There's also no specific information about where the chamber is or how it's accessed. I doubt Varys would have had one little bird move another's body. The kids would have found a way to communicate with each other that someone ended up dead and seen the writing on the wall, so to speak. Then there's the sacks of silver coins from a long ago reign. Sounds like this chamber hasn't been used in a quite a while, but Varys has had continual spying going on for at least 20 years.

Is there any chance Littlefinger takes the little birds and puts them in his brothels overseas where the secrets wouldn't be as valuable (after finding out the secrets, of course)? He and Varys could be working together temporarily, each hoping to beat the other at the Game.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Then there's the sacks of silver coins from a long ago reign.

Around the time of Larys Strong...

[Ser Carson]

Just had an Idea...

Varys is a Brightflame descendant and the rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms. His Father was probably Aerion's son that was passed over, so his father knew he was passed over and so did Varys. Varys grows up and has a daughter named serra. Varys is trying to put together a rebellion and gain power to take his birth right, but is cut down by Aegon the V to protect his line and end any future rebellions. Aegon takes his daughter and sells her into slavery before she could know her past and gives Varys to the red priests. He is expected to die, but instead he goes onto his dark criminal past he tells about. (Every lie needs a hint of truth.) He is searching for his daughter when finds another secret targ, Illryio Mopatis a female blackfyre descendant. He fought in the golden company because of his blackfyre connection and may have wielded blackfyre himself. The two pair up searching for his daughter and more power, so they could return and take their birthright. They find Serra Illryio marrys her and the blackfyre and brightflame marriage alliance begins. Orginally Varys wanted to orchestrate a rebellion at the right time so he could name Illryio King and his daughter Queen, but Robert struck first at the perfect time that varys had been working to create for Illryio. After Aegon is seen to be unrecognizable he decides to put his grandson on the throne as Aegon Targaryen. Varys talks to Doran and tells him the truth that blackfyre and brightflame descendant have married together. Doran wants revenge and wants to win so he uses the tools at his disposal. Oberyn has already signed a marriage agreement to Viserys for Arianne, but Doran tells him and Varys new master stroke to take out the lannisters (Some details may have been left out). Oberyn agrees that robert would crush them so he goes along with it because he wants vengance. Arianne is supposed to be saved for Aegon not Viserys. After there sure Aegon has the look they bring Jon Con into the plan as a evidence that he is son of Rhaegar. Viserys and Dany were suppose to die in the dothraki sea and Khal Drogo was suppose to avenge her and help bring the crown to Aegon. Dany lived and birthed Dragons and then became a problem. There solution became to send Quentyn and that old marriage contract they were never going to use to try and convince dany to come home, but to marry quentyn and leave Aegon for Arianne. Varys also knew that Tyrion was actually a targ bastard and felt a connection to him because of that wanted to send him to Aegon to help him as adivisor and then maybe reveals him as Tyrion Hill bastard son of Aerys Targagryen.

#secrettargseverywhere

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

of course Brightflame, and Blackfyre have an obvious link.

Aerion was also called Brightfire according to a SSM

[Mithras]

This is a brilliant observation! House Osgrey (BF loyalists) unite themselves withe House Webber (sigil a Spider like Varys and they supported Daeron the Good. Who was of course Aerion's grandfather).

Slamdunk man! :cheers:

Spider Lady (Lady Webber) was considerably younger than the Blackfyre loyalist Osgrey. House Blackfyre started at 190s whereas the House Brightflame started 40-50 years later.

[Frey family reunion]

Thanks for the info.

The chamber with skulls and yellowed bones doesn't necessarily indicate the "little birds" though as there's no mention of the size of the bones. I'd imagine they would want to kill them before they got old enough to think to tell anyone else the secrets, so they wouldn't be full-sized skeletons. The yellowing suggests those are old bones as well. If Varys is offing his informants he's probably ditching the bodies elsewhere. Keeping them in the castle would be too dangerous.

There's also no specific information about where the chamber is or how it's accessed. I doubt Varys would have had one little bird move another's body. The kids would have found a way to communicate with each other that someone ended up dead and seen the writing on the wall, so to speak. Then there's the sacks of silver coins from a long ago reign. Sounds like this chamber hasn't been used in a quite a while, but Varys has had continual spying going on for at least 20 years.

My take on the chamber is it's a southern equivalent of the chamber Bran is currently residing in. They basically built the Red Keep on one of the hills that the COTF and the green seers formerly resided in.

[Veltigar]

Spider Lady (Lady Webber) was considerably younger than the Blackfyre loyalist Osgrey. House Blackfyre started at 190s whereas the House Brightflame started 40-50 years later.

Another nice addition to that particular parallel :D

[Veltigar]

So In aCoK there are two speeches about shadows, one by Varys and one by Mel. I always thought they were possibly linked as Varys tells Tyrion shadows can kill, which is what happens with Mel's shadow assassins.

Varys tells Tyrion power is a mummers trick and a shadow. To gain power you have to cast a large shadow.

What casts the darkest shadow? A bright flame, according to Mel.

Dunno if this might be a purposeful nod or not, but just getting it out there. :P

Anyway, a good thread and i'll wade in when i've collected my thoughts on it.

I'm interested on the consensus of what the relationship between Serra and Varys might be, if they are both Brightflames.

Also a good nod. If anyone would be so kind to find the exact quotes I'll edit this into the OP :D

[King of Winters]

I can't shake the the feeling that Illyrio's bright yellow hair may be hint to him being a Brightflame.

[J. Stargaryen]

Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
“So power is a mummer’s trick?”
“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

- ACoK, Tyrion II

I'm not sure about the Mel speech.

[Veltigar]

I can't shake the the feeling that Illyrio's bright yellow hair may be hint to him being a Brightflame.

I briefly entertained the idea that he might have painted his beard yellow in the Tyroshi style to hide his Targ features. But it's been a while since I have read ADWD and I don't really recall if his beard is ever described as unnateral in color. Probably just some crazy notion that popped up in my head.

[Veltigar]

- ACoK, Tyrion II

I'm not sure about the Mel speech.

Thanks :cheers: What causes the trouble with Mel's speech? Is it not from ACOK or is it just not present in the books?

[J. Stargaryen]

Thanks :cheers: What causes the trouble with Mel's speech? Is it not from ACOK or is it just not present in the books?

Found it.

“Shadow?” Davos felt his flesh prickling. “A shadow is a thing of darkness.”

“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”

- ACoK, Davos II

[Mithras]

I can't shake the the feeling that Illyrio's bright yellow hair may be hint to him being a Brightflame.

Descendants of Daeron II dont have the blood of Aegon IV according to the Blackfyres and I believe the same, i.e. Aemon the Dragonknight was the father of Daeron II. So if we are going for Illyrio being Aegon IV 2.0, then he must have the blood of Aegon IV through Daemon Blackfyre. Of course they all have Targaryen blood but from a literary perspective, this looks more sensible than random genetics of real life.

[Frey family reunion]

Descendants of Daeron II dont have the blood of Aegon IV according to the Blackfyres and I believe the same, i.e. Aemon the Dragonknight was the father of Daeron II. So if we are going for Illyrio being Aegon IV 2.0, then he must have the blood of Aegon IV through Daemon Blackfyre. Of course they all have Targaryen blood but from a literary perspective, this looks more sensible than random genetics of real life.

Well technically he could have the blood of Aegon IV from one of the other numerous bastards Aegon IV had. Heck, if his mother was the Black Pearl prostitute... errr courtesan, then he would have Aegon IV blood. Half of Westeros and Essos may have the blood of Aegon IV from the number of bastards that guy bred.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I briefly entertained the idea that he might have painted his beard yellow in the Tyroshi style to hide his Targ features. But it's been a while since I have read ADWD and I don't really recall if his beard is ever described as unnateral in color. Probably just some crazy notion that popped up in my head.

Tyrion notes that he had yellow hair on his chest so unless he dyes himself all over...

[Frey family reunion]

Tyrion notes that he had yellow hair on his chest so unless he dyes himself all over...

Boy, is that an unpleasant thought.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Boy, is that an unpleasant thought.

Maybe he tried that colored bubble bath. :D

[Veltigar]

Just edited the OP to include the contributions made by Yolkboy and J. Stargaryen about the Varys and Mel speech.

I'm interested on the consensus of what the relationship between Serra and Varys might be, if they are both Brightflames.

I personally believe they are brother and sister. Not that I have much proof for that though. I just think that that would be the most effective family connection.

[Frey family reunion]

Just edited the OP to include the contributions made by Yolkboy and J. Stargaryen about the Varys and Mel speech.

I personally believe they are brother and sister. Not that I have much proof for that though. I just think that that would be the most effective family connection.

Why not Sera and Illyrio as brother and sister?