Small Questions v 10025

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To clarify: They happen earlier, they are placed (to be found) later in the books.

While they happen earlier, the reader experiences them later than they actually happen in the course of time. Difficult to explain, eh?

Yeah, but I think we got the message across now :)

[Fragile Bird]

Don'tyou mean earlier? ;)

<snip> timing

... Dany, whose timeframe in Dance I have yet to study, so I can't say anything with certainty) all end before or in the 7th or 8th month of 300 AC (with Roslin Grey's pregnancy as guideline)

<snip> timing

Guys, guys - timing issues have driven people crazy right from the beginning, and a lot of work has been done on determining when events occurred. Forgive me if you know this, but if you are studying timing issues, are you looking at and contributing comments to The Timeline? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Guys, guys - timing issues have driven people crazy right from the beginning, and a lot of work has been done on determining when events occurred. Forgive me if you know this, but if you are studying timing issues, are you looking at and contributing comments to The Timeline? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

I most certainly am :)

Whilst looking at the timeline hints in the chapters (I'm still gathering all the right quotes), I keep one eye on that document ;)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Guys, guys - timing issues have driven people crazy right from the beginning, and a lot of work has been done on determining when events occurred. Forgive me if you know this, but if you are studying timing issues, are you looking at and contributing comments to The Timeline? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

Fully aware of it, but I am not yet contributing because my main focus is 283... and that timeline mainly starts in 298.

I've seen a lot of things that look like omissions and errors in that timeline, but I cannot raise a voice on things because they simply look wrong at the moment... I should come with some rock-solid proof, shouldn't I?

[Fragile Bird]

Well, as rock solid as you can get. It's mainly cross-referencing news as it spreads through POVs.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, as rock solid as you can get. It's mainly cross-referencing news as it spreads through POVs.

Posting minor errors as I search for timeline hints in the text, will most likely contact the authors through PM once I have fully studies and worked out those hints (but when that will be, I don't know).

:)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It did not drive us crazy, we only went nuts :)

No, rock-solid was the wrong term, what I meant was dragonfire-proof :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It did not drive us crazy, we only went nuts :)

No, rock-solid was the wrong term, what I meant was dragonfire-proof :)

^^ :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is there a specific reason that Ser Gregor was allowed to defend Joffrey/Cersei in the trial against Tyrion, while in Feast and Dance it is stated that only a KG knight may defend a Queen in a trial. Shouldn't the same go for the King? Gregor was not a KG knight...

Edit: according to the last High Septon, it goes for a King as well:

“The knights of the Kingsguard have served as the rightful champions of king and queen since the days of Aegon the Conqueror. Crown and Faith speak as one on this.”

[RumHam]

Is there a specific reason that Ser Gregor was allowed to defend Joffrey/Cersei in the trial against Tyrion, while in Feast and Dance it is stated that only a KG knight may defend a Queen in a trial. Shouldn't the same go for the King? Gregor was not a KG knight...

Edit: according to the last High Septon, it goes for a King as well:

Joffrey was not the accused, Tyrion was.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Joffrey was not the accused, Tyrion was.

I get that. But still, the Iron Throne needed it's own champion, and according to High Septon #3, the KG are the rightful champions of both king and queen.

Or did Cersei just conveniently forget and did no one remember the High Septon. This High Septon needed to be reminded of it as well.

[HexMachina]

I thought the KG thing was because the KG must champion the Royal Families honour? I'm not sure of course. However, wasnt the historical example cited also related to honour rather than what we would consider truly crininal? (i know adultry is a serious crime in Westeros but that was just to distinguish between murder and adultry/fornication)

[Don Roberto]

According to Cersei, it's only when the queen's honour is at stake, though it's curious that the High Septon would have a different view on this.

"As queen, her honor must be defended by a knight of the Kingsguard. Why, every child in Westeros knows how Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championed his sister Queen Naerys against Ser Morghil's accusations.

"Ser Garlan is not a member of the Kingsguard," the queen said. "When the queen's honor is at issue, law and custom require that her champion be one of the king's sworn seven. The High Septon will insist, I fear." I will make certain of it.

[Fragile Bird]

Quick answer without looking anything up on the internet was that trial by battle was a common option in medieval times, on the basis whatever god you believed in would be on your side. Checking both ASOS and AGOT, when Tyrion was at the Eyrie, it looks like you can demand trial by battle as a right. Lysa Arryn doesn't blink and neither does Kevan Lannister when Tyrion asks for the right.

[HexMachina]

Quick answer without looking anything up on the internet was that trial by battle was a common option in medieval times, on the basis whatever god you believed in would be on your side. Checking both ASOS and AGOT, when Tyrion was at the Eyrie, it looks like you can demand trial by battle as a right. Lysa Arryn doesn't blink and neither does Kevan Lannister when Tyrion asks for the right.

The issue Rhaenys had though was that Cersei and Margery would need to be championed by a Kingsguard, as per FfC and the quotes above, while in Storm of Swords Tyrion was championed by Oberyn (fair do's) but the Crown was championed by Gregor - not a Kingsguard. It seems though, that the Kingsguard are either a) only necessary to defend a Royals' honour, rather than be a champion against the accused. or b ) are only needed when the issue is with the Royals' honour; i.e. adultry, fornication, etc.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The issue Rhaenys had though was that Cersei and Margery would need to be championed by a Kingsguard, as per FfC and the quotes above, while in Storm of Swords Tyrion was championed by Oberyn (fair do's) but the Crown was championed by Gregor - not a Kingsguard. It seems though, that the Kingsguard are either a) only necessary to defend a Royals' honour, rather than be a champion against the accused. or b ) are only needed when the issue is with the Royals' honour; i.e. adultry, fornication, etc.

Yes, I wasn't talking about whether the trial by combat would be allowed, I was indeed talking about the choice of champions.

Kevan even calls Gregor Cersei's champion, during the trial against Tyrion. Cersei is Queen, and she is defending her sons honour, who was King. It seems odd that no one insisted on a KG knight (not even Tyrion, who would most likely have known about the rule, right?).

So perhaps the rule wasn't really practiced anymore, or everyone was so scared of Tywin that they allowed Cersei to chose whatever champion she wanted, I guess. Cersei did think to herself "I'll insist on it" when mentioning to Taena that Margaery will need a KG champion to defend her innocence. To me, that suggests that with some effort, you might be allowed to chose another champion. But the High Septon doesn't seem to even consider such a thing, and tells Cersei that kings and queens are championed by their KG in trial by battle.

So did I miss something?

[Fragile Bird]

Sounds logical, FM. I looked up those two sections to see if there was a discussion about how it worked, but there wasn't.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I get that. But still, the Iron Throne needed it's own champion, and according to High Septon #3, the KG are the rightful champions of both king and queen.

Or did Cersei just conveniently forget and did no one remember the High Septon. This High Septon needed to be reminded of it as well.

I'm pretty sure RumHam is right R_T. In fact, I know he is. There is no other explanation.

[Fragile Bird]

What the Wiki says on the topic of justice:

The notion of justice depends greatly on the social class to which the defendant belongs. While most Houses has laws that protect the local commoners from abuse or mistreatment, to one degree or another, in some cases even from the nobility. These enforced by various degree depending on the disposition of the local lord or the status of the accused. Since most wrongs could be atoned for by the payment of a fine, the conduct of justice is different for common people and those rich noble, especially if they of high status and command influence and power, in which case overlooking their excess of exuberance, is sometimes in the best interest of the local lord.

Additionally, highborn such as Lords and nobles are afforded more rights by law: they cannot be denied trials^[5] and are allowed more leniency in their conduct.

An accused highborn may demand Trial by combat^[6] or the less used Trial of Seven and let the gods give judgement.^[7] "Taking the black", to join the Night's Watch, is an alternative to criminal punishment.^[8] By taking the black, one’s crimes are forgiven and he is exiled to the wall severing all previous ties. Women are not allowed to take the black. Also only a knight of the Kingsguard can champion a queen in a trial by battle if she has been accused of treason.^[9]

The legal majority for men and women is 16 ^[10] Trials, at least among the nobility, often begin with a prayer from a septon beseeching the Father Above to guide them towards justice.^[11] The accused and witness are sworn to honesty before he gives testimony at a trial.

[mindchap]

I get that. But still, the Iron Throne needed it's own champion, and according to High Septon #3, the KG are the rightful champions of both king and queen.

Or did Cersei just conveniently forget and did no one remember the High Septon. This High Septon needed to be reminded of it as well.

Just to add my two coppers, I would think that they would use the KG if the crown stood to lose something, but after dismissing Selmy I think she opened the floodgates on that which is okay and that which is not.