R + L = J v 74

[stateofdissipation]

BAG This is an incredibly stupid post. Starts off dumb and finishes with an entirely speculative and crackpot theory about Jon Snow/Arthur Dayne. Either senseless trolling or incompetence on your part. Ironic that someone who has spent as much time as you have telling everybody else they are being speculative would spew more of this nonsensical garbage. Report me if you're offended, I don't care.

I'm about ready to start ignoring anyone who describes Rhaegar as "the emo prince."

People ignore the fact that he actually got the prophecy right. This thing is thousands of years old, right? Pretty coincidental that the Others have returned within 15 or so years of Rhaegars passing. It is worth mentioning that AAR or TPTWP would have had to be born at least by the time Jon was in order to be of use in the upcoming battle. BAG

Jon Weirgaryen, on 11 Mar 2014 - 7:34 PM, said:

Hello @Rhaegar I Targaryen,

That would depend of what kind of supernatural. Dragons and prophesies for sure.

A prophesy? Love? The prophesy is of "The Prince that was promised". There is some about it in the House of the Undying Ones visions Daenerys has in A Clash of Kings 48 Daenerys IV. "The Dragon has Three Heads" is a part in the puzzle.

Do you think so?

Rhaegar is that emo youth who read everything he could and became obsessed with that stuff... and had thought he was that prince himself for some time, until he found it must be his son (Aegon)

The post was in response to the attached post. Not my term, I was not aware of the deep emotional attachment some feel for the prince. It somehow reminds me of Brienne or Loras pining for Renly.

People ignore the fact that he actually got the prophecy right.

People (Rhaegarphiles) seem to be unaware of the fact that The Prince That Was Promised has not been revealed. He may be right, and he may be wrong.

Rhaegar thought he was TPtwP. He later tought it would be his son Aegon. Aegon, by some accounts was killed. If Aegon did survive in hiding and is now returning to conquer the Seven King Kingdoms. He may be tPtwP. That is a wrong and a may be right.

This thing is thousands of years old, right? Pretty coincidental that the Others have returned within 15 or so years of Rhaegars passing.

Now by that there is coincidence between the prophecy being thousands of years old and the others returning, within 15 or so years of Rhaegar joining the choir invisible.

There is a coincidence between Rhaegar's belief that his son would be tPtwP and the Others returning around the time his son would be able to do something about them. Stating it that way would not be so confusing and eliminate the need for the following:

It is worth mentioning that AAR or TPTWP would have had to be born at least by the time Jon was in order to be of use in the upcoming battle.

It is worth mentioning (that the above sentence completes a post and) finishes an entirely speculative and crackpot theory

It connects the birth time of the birth of jon with an battle that will occur at some time in the future, Until the battle happens the time of birth necessary for the participants to be useful is necessarily undetermined.

an incredibly stupid post. Starts off dumb

Rhaegar the emo youth

Emo /ˈiːmoʊ/ is a style of rock music characterized by melodic musicianship and expressive, often confessional lyrics

It may be a stretch to call Rhaegar a rocker. However the text shows that he was musical and at least expressive enough to make Lyanna weep. It is hardly lacking in accuracy or judgment. It may be taken as derisive and blasphemous to the cult of Rhaegar.

was obsessed with the prophecy

This was a description Aemon used. It relates to the topic and has a textual basis. It is hardly lacking in accuracy or judgment.

.Sadly like most emo's he could not manage to get things right,

i did add a bit of personal experience here and take a slight jab at the emo kids. A failed attempt at humor perhaps but not inherently illogical or nonsensical. The part about Rhaegar getting the prophecy wrong is again rooted deeply in the text. by Rhaegar's accounts and Aemon's. The future may show this to be false. However, I simply stated what was written. This is a far cry from speculation. In fact, it is simple and accurate paraphrasing.

He thought he was the prince that was promised. Then he thought it was his son because he thought that the bleeding star was the comet,

Both of these are taken directly from the books. Neither claim to be direct quotes and both accurately and sensibly relate to the previous comments.

finishes with an entirely speculative and crackpot theory about Jon Snow/Arthur Dayne.

His best friend Ser Arthur Dayne, lord of starfell (who said all knights must bleed it is a sign of our devotion) died protecting his son Jon

Jon Snow was born under the protection of (the bleeding) Arthur Dayne of Starfell.

Depending on Jon's time of birth (bed of blood does seem to make it very close to the battle or very unsanitary) Arthur may have been bleeding at the time Jon was born.

Placing facts together in different or new orders is neither crackpot nor theory.

Fact Arthur Dayne was Rhaegars closest friend.

Fact Arthur Dayne was the lord of Starfell (the highlighted portion was an addition from the original post and was pointed out by Fire Eater, on 12 Mar 2014 - 01:55 AM to be factually in error as KG may not hold titles) I thank him for the correction and apologize for my error.

Fact Arthur Dayne saidi all knights must bleed it is a sign of our devotion

Arthur Dayne died in the battle at the Tower of Joy (largely accpeted though never directly stated) can hardly be called speculation

Jon, Rhaegar's son was born at the ToJ (widely accepted theory) This is speculation and the only unqualified speculation made in a post on R+L=J.

I engaged in qualified speculation:

Fact: Ned found Lyanna in Bed of blood

speculation laying in afterbirth for a significant period of time is very unsanitary.

speculation dying in in a sword fight may cause bleeding

senseless trolling or incompetence on your part.

Apparently, arrangement of facts in a way non conducive to the poster's thoughts is Sensless and incompetent.

Game of Thrones came before A Clash of Kings must be outright inflamitory by those terms. I guess one could call me guilty then.

Ironic that someone who has spent as much time as you have telling everybody else they are being speculative would spew more of this nonsensical garbage.

It is ironic I speculated and spewed that R+L=J, laying in afterbirth for a significant period of time is very unsanitary. dying in in a sword fight may cause bleeding

I can see how you would take that as complete nonsensical garbage. While I am at it i will spew a few more speculations: water is wet, grass is green, and the sun rises in the east.

Report me if you're offended, I don't care.

In a completely unrelated and nonsensical story. My dog crapped in the yard. I did not report him. I got a bag and picked it up and put it in the trash.

+

I'm about ready to start ignoring anyone who describes Rhaegar as "the emo prince."

i was wondering if that would include people think it may have been possible that the woman's name Rhaegar whispered as he went to sleep with the fishes was Rhaella

(quote GRRM all you want. If he dies before adding it to the series, all that is print is 'a woman's name')

Does the Rhaegar died crying for his mommy rate higher or lower on the butthurt meter than the offensive title?

[stateofdissipation]

I don't think that fits either, but maybe I'm just confused. Someone help me out here.

If I'm remembering correctly, Ned went straight from the Trident to King's Landing. By the time he got there, Tywin held the city, Jaime had killed Aerys, and Viserys and his pregnant mother were had fled to Dragonstone. Granted, we don't know the exact dates of the Battle of the Trident and the Siege of KL, but it seems reasonable to say that it was a matter of days or weeks, rather than months, in between the two events. Queen Rhaelle was still on Dragonstone when she gave birth to Dany, so if Dany was conceived during the Battle of the Trident, then Viserys and Rhaelle stayed at Dragonstone for many months before Dany's birth. That strikes me as odd and hard to explain. Word surely would have reached them about the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys, and they'd already fled the capital in fear for their lives, why would they stay on Dragonstone for that long?

It makes more sense to me that Dany was conceived earlier than the Battle at the Trident, meaning that Rhaelle was further along in the pregnancy when she and Viserys fled KL for Dragonstone, and shortening the amount of time they stayed there before fleeing for the Free Cities. But, again, maybe I missed something.

EDIT:

Right after posting, I saw the link to that SSM. Now, I'm even more confused.

I believe Dany is younger in the books than Jon and Robb. Robb was conceived after Brandon and Rickard were burned. I do not think the ages would allow it.

[MtnLion]

And I wonder how much we really know about the timing of Dany's birth? Sounds like Rhaella became pregnant right around the time Aerys died... but it could conceivably have happened just after his death. Might Rhaella have taken some newfound liberty after Aerys' death?

Oh, do you really want to start a Daenerys is a bastard thread? :smileysex: :whip: :hat:

[MtnLion]

Did it take eight months? I don't remember reading that, but that could be the answer right there.

It took a year to build a fleet to assault Dragonstone. The Tyrell fleet was not suitable for the assault, but likely blockaded Dragonstone. Daenerys was born nine moons after her mother fled King's Landing, according to her, and she was born the night of a great storm that sank her father's fleet and any hope of continuing the war.

ETA: Daenerys was likely conceived on the night that Rossart was made Hand (Chelsted was roasted), and Jaime and Darry guarded the door. Rhaegar left for the Trident with Darry, who dies at the Trident and King's Landing falls a fortnight later.

[Jon Icefyre]

This is an incredibly stupid post. Starts off dumb and finishes with an entirely speculative and crackpot theory about Jon Snow/Arthur Dayne. Either senseless trolling or incompetence on your part. Ironic that someone who has spent as much time as you have telling everybody else they are being speculative would spew more of this nonsensical garbage. Report me if you're offended, I don't care.

I'm about ready to start ignoring anyone who describes Rhaegar as "the emo prince."

People ignore the fact that he actually got the prophecy right. This thing is thousands of years old, right? Pretty coincidental that the Others have returned within 15 or so years of Rhaegars passing. It is worth mentioning that AAR or TPTWP would have had to be born at least by the time Jon was in order to be of use in the upcoming battle.

Wow tell us how you really feel lol. It seems Rhaegar got the doom and gloom part of the prophecy(The Others invasion) right. But as far as we know at this point it would seem as though he totally misinterpreted who would actually be TPTWP, unless he had some sort of Targ vision about he and Lyanna's unborn child that we don't know about. Furthermore, I've always found it interesting that the last word Rhaegar spoke before he died was 'Lyanna'. I mean for a guy that was supposedly fixated with TPTWP propchecy, you would think his last thoughts would be about his son Aegon who according to Rhaegar was suppose to be the savior of the world, but instead Rhaegar's last thoughts were of Lyanna? Surely his only son Aegon TPTWP should've been prioritized in his thoughts above his lover Lyanna right? Unless, there's something we don't yet know that may have caused Rheagar to look away from his son Aegon as TPTWP and look towards Lyanna and their unborn child. I've been trying to find and re-read examples in the series of GRRM giving certain characters visions, prophecies, vivid dreams, and the stituations in which he gives it to them, and I'm really starting to think it's very plausible if not probable that Rhaegar had some sort of vision or symbolistic dream GRRM hasn't told us about yet that was real enough to convince Rhaegar that his unborn child with Lyanna would be the key to TPTWP instead of Aegon. Yes it's a little crackpotty, but hey it's just my take on it, so I just thought I'd share lol. :)

As to your part about the, "emo prince" well :

"There was a melancholy to Rhaegar, a sense... of doom."- Ser Barristan Selmy

Hahaha seems like an, "emo prince" to me! :P

[Fred of Ashai]

Even the that bit of the story is conjecture, on the part of the Westerosi author. It could be that Lord Larys counselled the king to do these things. And, what we know of the Kingsguard demands that they protect and defend the king as their primary motive. Your spoiler is unsupported in the text, as far as I have seen.,

How can my spoiler be unsupported by the text when it is just a quote from the text?

Here we have a concrete example where the last two King's guards were ordered by a member of the Small Council to leave the king and go do something else. One of them then swears a vow to accomplish that something else.

This is the exact situation Hightower, Dayne and Whent faced if Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna and if they came to believe that the king was Viserys and that he had no King's guards with him. The only difference is that the threat to Aegon was more immediate than the threat to Viserys.

And the Princess and the Queen tells us what the King's guards would do if this happened: they would stay at the Tower of Joy and guard Lyanna, thus obeying the order and leaving the king in the care of non-kingsguard defenders.

[Alia of the knife]

The effect of that would be that Rhaella would have been pregnant for almost 2 years :p

It's quite possible that Dany was conceived the night Lord Chelsted was burned. He was Hand of the King before Lord Rossart, and Rossart was only Hand for a fortnight. Aerys did always visit Rhaella at night when he had a man burned, and Chelsted was burned because he resigned his office when he learned about the Wildfire Plot and did not manage to convince Aerys to stop the wildfire plot.

But with a Rebellion lasting close to a year and Dany being born 9 months after the rebellion has ended, it's impossible for her to have been conceived on the night of Brandon and Rickards deaths.

Okay, that makes sense, I forgot about Chelsted.

[Fire Eater]

This is an incredibly stupid post. Starts off dumb and finishes with an entirely speculative and crackpot theory about Jon Snow/Arthur Dayne. Either senseless trolling or incompetence on your part. Ironic that someone who has spent as much time as you have telling everybody else they are being speculative would spew more of this nonsensical garbage. Report me if you're offended, I don't care.

I'm about ready to start ignoring anyone who describes Rhaegar as "the emo prince."

People ignore the fact that he actually got the prophecy right. This thing is thousands of years old, right? Pretty coincidental that the Others have returned within 15 or so years of Rhaegars passing. It is worth mentioning that AAR or TPTWP would have had to be born at least by the time Jon was in order to be of use in the upcoming battle.

Whoa, Rhaegar I Targaryen, keep those kinds of opinions to yourself. You aren't doing anyone any favors, including yourself, by arguing this way. You have argument, but the way you are presenting it is obnoxious, not to mention disrespectful.

Fact Arthur Dayne was the lord of Starfell

No, members of the KG are forbidden to hold seats.

[Fred of Ashai]

I didn't see any such thing. Care to cite page and give the entire quote, not just for the Kingsguard's pledge, but for the supposed lack of command from the king?

It is under the spoiler tag in post 97. Sentence 1 says that Lord Larys decreed that certain things should happen. Sentence 2 explains how Larys' order was implemented and starts "Ser Rickard Thorne was ordered...".

The order to Thorne shows us how Lord Larys' decree was implemented. Unless you think Larys was giving orders to the king, then there is no other rational interpretation of those two sentences.

Larys, not the king, gave the order to the King's guards, and they obeyed.

[stateofdissipation]

Whoa, Rhaegar I Targaryen, keep those kinds of opinions to yourself. You aren't doing anyone any favors, including yourself, by arguing this way. You have argument, but the way you are presenting it is obnoxious, not to mention disrespectful.

No, members of the KG are forbidden to hold seats.

i do admit my error there...

and retract my statement post haste....

Fact Arthur Dayne was of starfell

Lord has been removed much to my embarrassment

I have no idea why i added it in the response. it was not from the original post even

I edited the original post, noted your correction, and thanked you.

Thank you again,

[Fred of Ashai]

The wetnurse might have been present at ToJ already.

Yes, and we know her name thanks to Ned Dayne -- it was Wylla who nursed Jon (either as his mother or his wet nurse). If she is the same "wet nurse" Cat saw in Winterfell then Jon's nursing would have been as consistent as Robb's.

But even if this is true, the relative size of two young children from different mother's tells you very little about who is older, if we are just talking about two or three months.

[Natasi]

Whoa, Rhaegar I Targaryen, keep those kinds of opinions to yourself. You aren't doing anyone any favors, including yourself, by arguing this way. You have argument, but the way you are presenting it is obnoxious, not to mention disrespectful.

No, members of the KG are forbidden to hold seats.

I didn't see any argument in his post. He is free to express his opinion. I'm glad he shares it because it is a welcome reprieve from the more common opinions on this board.

[corbon]

But even if this is true, the relative size of two young children from different mother's tells you very little about who is older, if we are just talking about two or three months.

As already noted several times, size is irrelevant.

Its basic development milestones in very early childhood that matter. The older children get the more their age can be misinterpreted, but you can't put two babies (Jon and Robb) together at less than 6 months of age and get their relative ages wrong by more than a month or so unless you are completely incompetent.

Some have claimed that Jon can't be any older than Robb due to this factor, but I think thats over doing it somewhat. Jon could be a few weeks older, possibly, than Robb. Catelyn would then not be sure which was older, but be able to take the assumption Jon was conceived after their marriage (because Ned never said anything about another woman before their marriage, just turned up after the best part of a year away with a bastard) and make it fit both observations available to her, at least better than the assumption Jon was older.

Certainly though if Jon is a few weeks or months younger, it gets easier and easier for her assumption to be clearly correct.

[Fire Eater]

I didn't see any argument in his post. He is free to express his opinion. I'm glad he shares it because it is a welcome reprieve from the more common opinions on this board.

Yes, he is free to express his opinion, but there is also the Golden Rule. You shouldn't call people's posts "incredibly stupid," as that is very offensive and disrespectful.

[Jon Icefyre]

I didn't see any argument in his post. He is free to express his opinion. I'm glad he shares it because it is a welcome reprieve from the more common opinions on this board.

So somoene calling someone else's post "incredibly stupid," is a welcome reprieve for you? Smh, this might be the wrong forum for you.....

[Jon Icefyre]

As already noted several times, size is irrelevant.

Its basic development milestones in very early childhood that matter. The older children get the more their age can be misinterpreted, but you can't put two babies (Jon and Robb) together at less than 6 months of age and get their relative ages wrong by more than a month or so unless you are completely incompetent.

Some have claimed that Jon can't be any older than Robb due to this factor, but I think thats over doing it somewhat. Jon could be a few weeks older, possibly, than Robb. Catelyn would then not be sure which was older, but be able to take the assumption Jon was conceived after their marriage (because Ned never said anything about another woman before their marriage, just turned up after the best part of a year away with a bastard) and make it fit both observations available to her, at least better than the assumption Jon was older.

Certainly though if Jon is a few weeks or months younger, it gets easier and easier for her assumption to be clearly correct.

:agree: Well said mate!

[Lady Katharynne]

I like the mention of Rhaegar's last words. I've always been confused by Rhaegar's actions during the rebellion. Why didn't he send Ellia and his children away from KL? He sees doom everywhere but doesn't send them to Dorne? Ignoring (for now) a possible Aegon switch, didn't he kind of abandon them? Mad Aerys sent his wife and kids away. I guess the most obvious answer is he thought he would win (classic hubris) but that doesn't really sound like Rhaegar.

[Jon Icefyre]

I like the mention of Rhaegar's last words. I've always been confused by Rhaegar's actions during the rebellion. Why didn't he send Ellia and his children away from KL? He sees doom everywhere but doesn't send them to Dorne? Ignoring (for now) a possible Aegon switch, didn't he kind of abandon them? Mad Aerys sent his wife and kids away. I guess the most obvious answer is he thought he would win (classic hubris) but that doesn't really sound like Rhaegar.

Thanks and I noticed this is your second post welcome!! :) Unfortunately the Elia situation was kind of out of Rhaegar's hands, Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage at KL to ensure Lewyn Martell of the KG and the rest of the Dornish stayed loyal to Rhaegar during the Battle of the Trident.

[stateofdissipation]

Thanks and I noticed this is your second post welcome!! :) Unfortunately the Elia situation was kind of out of Rhaegar's hands, Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage at KL to ensure Lewyn Martell of the KG and the rest of the Dornish stayed loyal to Rhaegar during the Battle of the Trident.

I would like to go back to the; ignoring for now possible Aegon switch.

I never really gave the matter much thought and dismissed it as a fabrication off Illyrio/Varys. That was until Jon Icefyre here pointed out something I had always kept separate. I was under the impression that Ageon was supposedly smuggled out of KL under the threat of invasion. I never really thought that Rhaegar would also have cause to smuggle his own son out under the threat of his father.

I am going to have to go back to reread this section, Thanks for giving me something to look up.

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks and I noticed this is your second post welcome!! :) Unfortunately the Elia situation was kind of out of Rhaegar's hands, Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage at KL to ensure Lewyn Martell of the KG and the rest of the Dornish stayed loyal to Rhaegar during the Battle of the Trident.

And welcome back you. :D