Heresy 101 The Crows

[Black Crow]

That being said, if we're looking at a wider role for the crows, Bloodraven may not necessarily have been the sole point of contact and the three-eyed crow that visited Jojen may not necessarily have been Bloodraven. We have speculated in the past that Bloodraven's own third eye may have been opened by a crow while he lay in the total darkness of the black cells.

[JNR]

I think that there is a link between the Singers and the Crows just as there is between the Starks and the direwolves

I certainly agree with this. Loads of evidence.

this is why Bloodraven appears to Bran as a three-eyed-crow, but does so unwittingly in the sense that he may not be aware Bran sees him as a crow, rather than say a kindly old man.

In the past, you suggested (and I now think correctly) that there was more than just the appearance to distinguish them. The tone and language of the 3EC are also significantly different from Bloodraven's.

For instance, as Bran is plummeting to his apparent dream-death, in his first encounter with the 3EC before he learns to fly, he is terrified.

"Help me," he begs the 3EC.

"I'm trying," says the 3EC. "Say, got any corn?"

Seriously?!

Then a bit later, the crow tells him:

You'll die when you hit the ground. Then the crow went back to eating corn.

It's such a flip attitude. I can't imagine Bloodraven saying that, or acting like that, under such circumstances.

I think you were right to call attention to this before, and remembering it has led me to quite a different idea about the 3EC than I had then.

We have speculated in the past that Bloodraven's own third eye may have been opened by a crow while he lay in the total darkness of the black cells.

Sold.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

There is another point to bear in mind here, which applies to direwolves as well, but particularly to crows, is the simple fact that crows profit from war. They are the ones who feast on the dead and conspicuously do so all the way through the story, which is why the Morrigan, the crow goddess is a god of death and probably also why we have that business of the Crone opening the door to death and letting the first raven fly into the world.

In this respect at least the Crows and the white walkers might be seen as natural allies.

Adding to the crow death theme... The crows also host spirits from the dead. Think to the distant past of all the Singers that have died having a crow connection, and the various humans and current Singers. That's a lot of death flying around. Much more than all other skinchnaged animals combined, I would say.

Then we have the weirwood, that host the dead, and a few living, greenseers. Did the Singers have the knowlege of the Weirwood from the begining? Maybe, maybe not. We do not have that information. So, I am proposing it could be the crows that guided the first greensingers to the weirwoods. Could the crows skinchanging connection to the Singers have set them up with the trees. A place the dead could go and still be apart of life. What do you think?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

With the quotes from Yield about the crows on the broken tower that Bran would feed.and the crow quotes from JNR of Bran's fall in his coma dream... The three-eyed crow seems more likely to have come from Bran's mind. Just sayin'.

[JNR]

Also note this:

That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying How hard can it be. I'm doing it.

"You have wings," Bran pointed out.

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

And why does Leaf not know him as the three-eyed crow? She is along with Bloodraven in Bran's training, but she calls Bloodraven the greenseer.

[wolfmaid7]

Completely agree with you. That's exactly what I meant in my earlier post about why the LCs raven in particular and the other ravens are so intelligent. They are very clever creatures to begin with and then when they choose a partner they learn from that partner the same way that Summer learns from Bran.

In the internal monologues we see with Bran and Summer that there is a constant interuption of the direwolf's thoughts with little things like 'steel man claws' are 'swords', 'the elk is not prey' etc. Summer learns from these thoughts and Bran learns how to understand what Summer is thinking and how he sees the world. Their connection is such that when Bran sends Summer to aid Jon to escape the wildlings band he's with Bran directs Summer through the fight.

What I am trying to illustrate is that if the connection between animal and skinchanger is so close that they can hear each others thoughts and share emotions then there is always going to be a residual amount of that knowledge shared between them left behind. Then if the raven's human or Singer is dead or gone the bird will retain that learning even without there being a Singer or human sharing their second life within the bird. Plus we are told by Varamyr that the essence of the person eventually fades to just background noise, so they are not ruling the animal and not even equal partners anymore.

Again, I don't think that Bloodraven is controlling the raven but that he can peek in to see what's happening if he wants to. The bird is acting on it's own from it's own and any previous skinchanger's knowledge of the world.

As my Caribbean kin would say " seen,now you overstand me" ,that's exactly what i was saying.

Ah, not quite. As outlined earlier I think that there is a link between the Singers and the Crows just as there is between the Starks and the direwolves, and this is why Bloodraven appears to Bran as a three-eyed-crow, but does so unwittingly in the sense that he may not be aware Bran sees him as a crow, rather than say a kindly old man.

I don't know BC,its not just the quotes that distinquishes that a Weirwood tree has been calling Bran,alongside the 3eyed crow that's been calling him.The whole vibe of BR compared to the Crow is different,the attitudes mannerisms,tone etc is not the same.I don't know if the 3eyed crow is trying to interfere with or facilitate communication but the essence isn't the same being.

I certainly agree with this. Loads of evidence.

In the past, you suggested (and I now think correctly) that there was more than just the appearance to distinguish them. The tone and language of the 3EC are also significantly different from Bloodraven's.

For instance, as Bran is plummeting to his apparent dream-death, in his first encounter with the 3EC before he learns to fly, he is terrified.

"Help me," he begs the 3EC.

"I'm trying," says the 3EC. "Say, got any corn?"

Seriously?!

Then a bit later, the crow tells him:

It's such a flip attitude. I can't imagine Bloodraven saying that, or acting like that, under such circumstances.

I think you were right to call attention to this before, and remembering it has led me to quite a different idea about the 3EC than I had then.

Sold.

I agree totally

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

Even more proof,i'm still thinking he was the Weirwood.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

These are great questions. I'd guess that part of the explanation for why the 3EC speaks to Bran in this way is that the communication is mediated by Bran's subconscious. For Bran, part of what defines a raven - and his relationship with ravens - is corn.

Another thing I'd wonder is whether the 3EC sees Bran differently than Bran sees himself. We're assuming a metaphysical medium - dreams and such. BR, the old gods, or whoever we think is involved, appears to Bran as a 3 eyed crow. But how does Bran appear to them in the dream encounter? BR might see Bran as another 3 eyed crow from the start... which could explain some of the odd questions and tone. (Maybe.)

[theREALjonsnow]

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

ok i agree with you that the 3EC and BR and separate entities....

somebody recruited Brynden Rivers same as Brandon Stark was brought through green dreams and jojen reed the greenseer to the trees and children and ravens in the cave...

do we think the white ravens what signal change of season originate from lands of always winter?...

[Melifeather]

I certainly agree with this. Loads of evidence.

In the past, you suggested (and I now think correctly) that there was more than just the appearance to distinguish them. The tone and language of the 3EC are also significantly different from Bloodraven's.

For instance, as Bran is plummeting to his apparent dream-death, in his first encounter with the 3EC before he learns to fly, he is terrified.

"Help me," he begs the 3EC.

"I'm trying," says the 3EC. "Say, got any corn?"

Seriously?!

Then a bit later, the crow tells him:

It's such a flip attitude. I can't imagine Bloodraven saying that, or acting like that, under such circumstances.

I think you were right to call attention to this before, and remembering it has led me to quite a different idea about the 3EC than I had then.

Sold.

The flippant tone could also be coming from the crow, just like Bran acquires a taste for blood by being inside Summer when Summer eats. Whoever or whatever is inside the crow is experiencing what the crow wants: corn. And since the crow so easily flies it cannot understand why others cannot.

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

Great observation. The crow is aware he looks like a crow.

[Melifeather]

These are great questions. I'd guess that part of the explanation for why the 3EC speaks to Bran in this way is that the communication is mediated by Bran's subconscious. For Bran, part of what defines a raven - and his relationship with ravens - is corn.

Another thing I'd wonder is whether the 3EC sees Bran differently than Bran sees himself. We're assuming a metaphysical medium - dreams and such. BR, the old gods, or whoever we think is involved, appears to Bran as a 3 eyed crow. But how does Bran appear to them in the dream encounter? BR might see Bran as another 3 eyed crow from the start... which could explain some of the odd questions and tone. (Maybe.)

I imagine it's no different than Jon seeing Bran as a weirwood tree, and Melisandre seeing a wolf face staring back at her in the flames. Bran probably wasn't aware of his appearance.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

When Jojen speaks of his greendream about the winged-wolf with stone chains, he says that the three--eyed crow came to him. I think this is also Bran. He is reaching out for help in the same way he is trying to access his hidden greenseeing ability and wake from his dream before he dies.

[Frey family reunion]

Also note this:

So the 3EC cannot be Bloodraven, unless Bloodraven was aware of the crow form he had in Bran's dream. He knew he wasn't a kindly old man.

But if he was aware... then why is he perplexed when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow?

I've brought this up before, that Bloodraven's confusion when asked about his identity may just be the author subtly referencing Gandalf's return from the dead in the LOTR. He too appeared perplexed when the hobbits called him Gandalf and it took him a minute to remember he had gone by that name. Bloodraven has a lot of parallels to Gandalf the greatest being that both characters seem to be heavily based on Odin.

In addition, doesn't Varamyr state that skinchangers who take the skins of birds often become fairly flighty?

[JNR]

Even more proof,i'm still thinking [bloodraven] was the Weirwood [in Bran's dreams that was calling him].

Yes, I think so too. Bloodraven is much more closely associated with weirwoods at this point than crows.

In addition, doesn't Varamyr state that skinchangers who take the skins of birds often become fairly flighty?

He says they stand around gazing at the sky (because they have assumed the bird's nature and yearn to fly).

Kudos for pun on flighty.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok guys there seems to be 2 thoughts here,am i stating this right?

1.The 3eyed crow a manifestation of Bran's unconscious mind that has no clue what it looks like be it a Crow or a Weirwood? I don't about this one guys. The weirwood sapling persona and the Crow persona are still giving off different tones.The Weirwood sounds like Bran,even feels like Bran that crow has a completely different feel...." Say got any corn?" gives me the heebie jeebies and a kind of Chester Cat vibe.

2. The crow is a separate entity from BR ,autonomous .Maybe be complementary ,maybe not etc. Believe this one more.

So what's the thinking ?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The weirwood form is the way Jon perceived him through Ghost, After Bran opened his third eye blind. The crow persona was in Bran's coma dream, Before he opened his third eye. I do not know that we can seperate the two with a positive answer.

An aside (I thought the weirwood Jon/Ghost saw growing was an actual weirwood sapling)

[Lord Ravenstark]

He chose one bird, and then another, without success, but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes, tilted its head, and gave a quork, and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy. The song of the river suddenly grew louder, the torches burned a little brighter than before, and the air was full of strange smells. When he tried to speak it came out in a scream, and his first flight ended when he crashed into a wall and ended back inside his own broken body. The raven was unhurt. It flew to him and landed on his arm, and Bran stroked its feathers and slipped inside of it again. Before long he was flying around the cavern, weaving through the long stone teeth that hung down from the ceiling, even flapping out over the abyss and swooping down into its cold black depths. Then he realized he was not alone. "Someone else was in the raven,"

he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said.

"Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Do ALL birds have singers?

"All,".

I was wondering... what in the seven hells what they can do with all the info they can have.

[wolfmaid7]

The weirwood form is the way Jon perceived him through Ghost, after Bran opened his third eye blind. Plus I thought that there was an actual weirwood sapling that seemed to grow through the 'vision. Either way - The crow persona was in Bran's coma dream before he opened his third eye. I do not know that we can seperate the two with a positive answer.

Goes directly to my point against why the 3eyed crow is not Bran's subconscious. There is no emotional connection from Bran to Crows, no reason as to why he can't recognize himself as the crow, the way Jon knew that the Weirwood was Bran.There is a recognition that would alert him way beyond face.

I don't get that is the way Jon percieved him, becsuse his thought when he heard Bran's voice was that he "looked around for a lean gray shape".

So Ghost perception didn't come into play as to how Bran appeared.

[Toccs]

Ok guys there seems to be 2 thoughts here,am i stating this right?

1.The 3eyed crow a manifestation of Bran's unconscious mind that has no clue what it looks like be it a Crow or a Weirwood? I don't about this one guys. The weirwood sapling persona and the Crow persona are still giving off different tones.The Weirwood sounds like Bran,even feels like Bran that crow has a completely different feel...." Say got any corn?" gives me the heebie jeebies and a kind of Chester Cat vibe.

2. The crow is a separate entity from BR ,autonomous .Maybe be complementary ,maybe not etc. Believe this one more.

So what's the thinking ?

I agree that the Weirwood sapling vision is definitely Bran, as you say it talks and feels just like the Bran we know and more importantly Bran himself remembers this vision happening from his end.

The Three Eyed Crow is a different matter though. It doesn't talk or feel anything remotely like Bloodraven (either before or after his enthroning) and when questioned directly about it, Bloodraven doesn't even seem aware of it. So if it's Bloodraven, then he clearly is unaware that in the dreams he is appearing as a crow, however lines such as "hey got any corn" clearly show that the Three Eyed Crow is aware of the form it is appearing as.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Goes directly to my point against why the 3eyed crow is not Bran's subconscious. There is no emotional connection from Bran to Crows, no reason as to why he can't recognize himself as the crow, the way Jon knew that the Weirwood was Bran.There is a recognition that would alert him way beyond face.

I don't get that is the way Jon percieved him, becsuse his thought when he heard Bran's voice was that he "looked around for a lean gray shape".

So Ghost perception didn't come into play as to how Bran appeared.

Well.. The one happened before Bran opened his third eye, the other happened after Bran opened his third eye. To me, that makes a difference. Aside from that we have two different peoples perspective that happen at two different times in the story. The first happened in Bran's dream, the second happened in Jon's dream.

ETA Jon was having a 'wolfdream' that is why I added in ghost. It is not only Jon's perception.