Vanity Fair: George and D&D regarding the last two books

[olibar]

There's an SSM floating around which reveals his early thoughts on the series. Basically, the first book was supposed to be about the Lannisters vs the Starks, the second book was supposed to be about Dany's invasion, and the third book was supposed to be about the Others. Obviously "the tale grew in the telling" as he always likes to say, but I think the original structure is probably still in place; it's evidently important to the plot that there is a specific sequence of events in Westeros, leaving it significantly weakened when the Others finally arrive.

Perfect, in that case I would argue that Danny believes that she has defeated the Others at the end of book 6, and turns her attention to the Iron Throne, only to have the full threat of the Others arrive in book 7. Again, this would allow the HBO series to end at what looks like a natural ending but is in fact a false one.

[Cas Stark]

Perfect, in that case I would argue that Danny believes that she has defeated the Others at the end of book 6, and turns her attention to the Iron Throne, only to have the full threat of the Others arrive in book 7. Again, this would allow the HBO series to end at what looks like a natural ending but is in fact a false one.

It also kinda sounds like we're looking at 9 books not 7. If Dany invading Westeros was supposed to happen "in the middle" originally....

[Colonel Green]

Perfect, in that case I would argue that Danny believes that she has defeated the Others at the end of book 6, and turns her attention to the Iron Throne, only to have the full threat of the Others arrive in book 7.

Um, there's zero indication that that is what is going to happen.

[olibar]

Why not, we've seen how cocky she can get. Now that she is a Dragon rider, I think it would be well within her character to overstep, rush over to the Seven Kingdoms, think by the end of TWoW that she was victorious only to have everything crash down around her in ADoS.

After all, if she's counting on her WMDs to win victory, and those were taken away in book 7 by any of her enemies, things could get very bad very quick. I could see her flying south to take the Iron throne, litterally telling Jon that she will be back to mop up the Others in a few months, only to have the Maesters or Mellisandre or a Faceless One kill off her dragons after she has the throne.

And I'm not trying to say any of this will happen, I'm simply speculating as to how the TV series could end in a satisfying way without moving past book 6.

[Colonel Green]

Why not, we've seen how cocky she can get. Now that she is a Dragon rider, I think it would be well within her character to overstep, rush over to the Seven Kingdoms, think by the end of TWoW that she was victorious only to have everything crash down around her in ADoS.

It's not going to happen because there's every indication that the books are not structured that way.

[Faint]

Regarding Daenerys' storyline, I agree that Daenerys will not be confronting anything in the North, be it the Others or Stannis Baratheon, before dealing with unresolved issues in the South (i.e., Aegon, Dorne).

That said, I think that the confrontation between Daenerys and Aegon will be significantly shorter than many expect and be resolved in a couple of chapters rather than the drawn out affair between Rhaenyra and Aegon II. If Martin has any discipline left, that will be the back-end of The Winds of Winter before Daenerys has to confront the more dangerous foes we got a glimpse of in the prophecies from the House of the Undying.

[olibar]

Can you elaborate on the specifics as to how the books structure precludes this?

[Cas Stark]

Regarding Daenerys' storyline, I agree that Daenerys will not be confronting anything in the North, be it the Others or Stannis Baratheon, before dealing with unresolved issues in the South (i.e., Aegon, Dorne).

That said, I think that the confrontation between Daenerys and Aegon will be significantly shorter than many expect and be resolved in a couple of chapters rather than the drawn out affair between Rhaenyra and Aegon II. If Martin has any discipline left, that will be the back-end of The Winds of Winter before Daenerys has to confront the more dangerous foes we got a glimpse of in the prophecies from the House of the Undying.

I don't think he has any discipline left, myself.

However, it looks to me like the major battle w/Dany and the others is going down in the Riverlands.

I don't know how I feel about Aegon, if he's dispatched that quickly, it will be kind of like, what the point, why bother at all?

[FalseKnight]

I really doubt HBO's lawyers wrote a contract that allows GRRM to rewrite the ending. They paid for the whole series. Supposedly he wants to sell more of his work to HBO. Why would anyone do business with him after to changed the ending of ASoIaF just to spite HBO?

[Colonel Green]

Can you elaborate on the specifics as to how the books structure precludes this?

It doesn't "preclude" it, it just isn't remotely likely, because there's no reason the story would be structured that way, and from Martin's past comments it isn't.

[FalseKnight]

I don't know how I feel about Aegon, if he's dispatched that quickly, it will be kind of like, what the point, why bother at all?

Aegon's reveal made little sense partially because GRRM pushed it into ADwD. He built up the idea that Dany was the last Targaryen for the first four books (except for that brief moment in THotU and bits and pieces of the story). Nothing pointed to Aegon being alive, and that's one reason why people think he's fake. If Aegon appeared in AFfC, the story would be much more continuous--no need for the reeder to do a double take.

[olibar]

In the classical hero's journey, the seizing of the sword actually comes prior to the climax of the story, so I don't see a structural problem with Danny, Jon and possibly Tyrion each seizing their thrones at the end of book 6, even prior to the final climax of the series in a confrontation with the Others.

Interestingly enough, in the Hero's Journey structure, after seizing the sword the Hero is often able to quickly return to his/her homeland via a "magic carpet" ride, and returns the boon they discovered while out on adventure to help save his people. Danny's dragons give her the ability to go anywhere in the world, a magic carpet that can speed her way on to her final destination.

Perhaps Danny doesn't fly North, perhaps she simply takes the Iron Throne in Books 6. Perhaps Stanis and Jon repel the first wave of Others, and Jon is awarded Winterfell. Now, book readers might know that there is still a massive horde of Others coming down, but the HBO series could simply eliminate that thread and end with apparent victory.

But I guess it comes down to whether you see the climax of the series being the fight with the Others or the internal fight between the kingdoms that began when Robert overthrew the King. I've always felt that Martin focused more on the story of humans fighting each other, and that the resolution of that story is paramount importance. In truth, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the entire Other threat vanquished in a single chapter by Danny's dragons as nothing more than a minor annoyance to her. I understand that this isn't a popular point of view, but I do believe it is one that is consistent with the story as it is being told.

If what I am proposing is directly opposed by the text, please let me know and I will be happy to revise, but the initial question remains.

In what way could book 6 end that would also result in a satisfying conclusion to the HBO series, thus precluding the need for Martin to complete the series prior to the end of the HBO show.

[franko99]

Aegon's reveal made little sense partially because GRRM pushed it into ADwD. He built up the idea that Dany was the last Targaryen for the first four books (except for that brief moment in THotU and bits and pieces of the story). Nothing pointed to Aegon being alive, and that's one reason why people think he's fake. If Aegon appeared in AFfC, the story would be much more continuous--no need for the reeder to do a double take.

Plot wise, AFFC and ADWD are the same book, so he did appear right after ASOS

[Cas Stark]

In the classical hero's journey, the seizing of the sword actually comes prior to the climax of the story, so I don't see a structural problem with Danny, Jon and possibly Tyrion each seizing their thrones at the end of book 6, even prior to the final climax of the series in a confrontation with the Others.

Interestingly enough, in the Hero's Journey structure, after seizing the sword the Hero is often able to quickly return to his/her homeland via a "magic carpet" ride, and returns the boon they discovered while out on adventure to help save his people. Danny's dragons give her the ability to go anywhere in the world, a magic carpet that can speed her way on to her final destination.

Perhaps Danny doesn't fly North, perhaps she simply takes the Iron Throne in Books 6. Perhaps Stanis and Jon repel the first wave of Others, and Jon is awarded Winterfell. Now, book readers might know that there is still a massive horde of Others coming down, but the HBO series could simply eliminate that thread and end with apparent victory.

But I guess it comes down to whether you see the climax of the series being the fight with the Others or the internal fight between the kingdoms that began when Robert overthrew the King. I've always felt that Martin focused more on the story of humans fighting each other, and that the resolution of that story is paramount importance. In truth, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the entire Other threat vanquished in a single chapter by Danny's dragons as nothing more than a minor annoyance to her. I understand that this isn't a popular point of view, but I do believe it is one that is consistent with the story as it is being told.

If what I am proposing is directly opposed by the text, please let me know and I will be happy to revise, but the initial question remains.

In what way could book 6 end that would also result in a satisfying conclusion to the HBO series, thus precluding the need for Martin to complete the series prior to the end of the HBO show.

Why would they do that? What is HBO's motivation...knowing the end of the story...to end it early at some other arbitrary point?

To indulge GRRM and bail him out of the hole his procrastination has put him in?

[olibar]

Or to allow for a happier ending than the books will have. All stories end at an arbitrary point, there is no law that the book and show must end at the same one.

This would be in collaboration with HBO, they would know that they were only getting the story through book 6 and might be happy with where it ends there.

After all, what would stop GRRM from continuing on to book 8, 9, or 10 if he wanted to continue the story past wherever it is ending in book 7 (precluding the possibility that the Red Comet destroys the entire world at the end of book 7 and/or we reach the entropic heat death of our own universe before he publishes another book.

[sifth]

Or to allow for a happier ending than the books will have. All stories end at an arbitrary point, there is no law that the book and show must end at the same one.

This would be in collaboration with HBO, they would know that they were only getting the story through book 6 and might be happy with where it ends there.

After all, what would stop GRRM from continuing on to book 8, 9, or 10 if he wanted to continue the story past wherever it is ending in book 7 (precluding the possibility that the Red Comet destroys the entire world at the end of book 7 and/or we reach the entropic heat death of our own universe before he publishes another book.

I think your living in a dream world. You don't write an entire final book as an epilog

[Colonel Green]

But I guess it comes down to whether you see the climax of the series being the fight with the Others or the internal fight between the kingdoms that began when Robert overthrew the King. I've always felt that Martin focused more on the story of humans fighting each other, and that the resolution of that story is paramount importance. In truth, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the entire Other threat vanquished in a single chapter by Danny's dragons as nothing more than a minor annoyance to her. I understand that this isn't a popular point of view, but I do believe it is one that is consistent with the story as it is being told.

GRRM has quite clearly stated that the showdown with the Others was always planned as the final battle. The politics stuff (which expanded enormously in the course of writing the series) is meant to show the people of Westeros tearing each other apart while ignorant of the real threat to all of them.

[DaveyJoe]

Yep, and it's interesting that as the story gets bigger and bigger, the "real threat" will take up an increasingly smaller part of the story.

[cade]

Yep, and it's interesting that as the story gets bigger and bigger, the "real threat" will take up an increasingly smaller part of the story.

It's ironic how the author himself has gotten far more wrapped up in the politics than he'd anticipated, and kept the Others at bay so they don't interfere. The "game of thrones" was intended to be a distraction from the real threat, but it's so dominated the story that many fans now worry the Others will be a distraction.

[Colonel Green]

It's ironic how the author himself has gotten far more wrapped up in the politics than he'd anticipated, and kept the Others at bay so they don't interfere. The "game of thrones" was intended to be a distraction from the real threat, but it's so dominated the story that many fans now worry the Others will be a distraction.

Yeah, definitely.

Just look at fan fiction, and how many of the "future" stories either outright ignore the existence of the Others or vaguely allude to victory over them without getting into the details -- it's clear that much (perhaps most) of the fandom cares way more about the inter-house politicking than the supposed final battle, which, while logical given how disproportionate the focus has been, could be a problem when we get to the end.