Vanity Fair: George and D&D regarding the last two books

[FalseKnight]

Well, yes, I don't really think it will be quite that easy.

Actually, that goes more to my point that at the end of TWoW, Danny could have a deceptively easy victory over a small number of Others that makes her, Stannis, Mellisandre and Jon all believe that they have what it takes to easily take care of the threat. Maybe they decide they don't even need a night's watch anymore, it's disbanded and that is what allows Jon to take over Winterfell.

Then, oops, early in book 7 Danny is chillin' on the Iron Throne when her Dragons are killed by Faceless Ones or Mellisandre or Cercsi or whatever. Now you've got zombie apocalypse on the way with nothing to stop them.

Why on earth would HBO agree to this? Do you honestly believe that HBO has no recourse if GRRM lies to them?

[olibar]

I have no idea what the contract between GRRM and HBO looks like. Again, HBO is worried about two things, gaining subscribers and selling blu rays.

If they end the series with book 6 and then there is an outcry to see the rest of the story when book 7 comes out, maybe they'll start the show back up again to finish it and just age the characters appropriately.

If there isn't interest, they'll just let it be and keep selling blu rays of the seasons they have.

[Colonel Green]

If they end the series with book 6 and then there is an outcry to see the rest of the story when book 7 comes out, maybe they'll start the show back up again to finish it and just age the characters appropriately.

That will never, in a million years, happen. Once you release the cast, you would never be able to assemble them again on a TV budget. And they would have to rebuild all the sets.

If there isn't interest, they'll just let it be and keep selling blu rays of the seasons they have.

They won't be selling many Blu-rays of a series without a proper ending.

[The Human Abstract]

Eh. Many great HBO shows have not had strong ending. I'm sure they would be fine.

DVDs will sell much worse if this show tries to shoe-horn in a cursory ending in 20 episodes that will without a doubt be incredibly shitty.

[Colonel Green]

Eh. Many great HBO shows have not had strong ending.

Most HBO shows aren't nearly as serialized as this show is -- that is to say, it's one story.

[FalseKnight]

I have no idea what the contract between GRRM and HBO looks like. Again, HBO is worried about two things, gaining subscribers and selling blu rays.

If they end the series with book 6 and then there is an outcry to see the rest of the story when book 7 comes out, maybe they'll start the show back up again to finish it and just age the characters appropriately.

If there isn't interest, they'll just let it be and keep selling blu rays of the seasons they have.

If GRRM changes the ending after HBO concludes GoT, loses at least one season of adaptable material. Therefore, they lose blu ray sales plus countless subscriptions. They won't let that happen.

[olibar]

Most HBO shows aren't nearly as serialized as this show is -- that is to say, it's one story.

You mean other than The Wire, The Sopranos, Carnival, True Detective, Boardwalk Empire, Rome, True Blood...

And yes it would be expensive to restart the show, but HBO would do it if they thought they would make money, and wouldn't if they didn't.

I can't imagine GRRM signing anything that says that he has to end his book the same way that the show ends. HBO greenlit the show based off characters and a story outline, but maintained the final creative control of the show. I'm positive GRRM has final creative control of his books, no way he sold that to HBO.

[Cas Stark]

You mean other than The Wire, The Sopranos, Carnival, True Detective, Boardwalk Empire, Rome, True Blood...

And yes it would be expensive to restart the show, but HBO would do it if they thought they would make money, and wouldn't if they didn't.

I can't imagine GRRM signing anything that says that he has to end his book the same way that the show ends. HBO greenlit the show based off characters and a story outline, but maintained the final creative control of the show. I'm positive GRRM has final creative control of his books, no way he sold that to HBO.

You think that HBO bought the rights to the characters and not the story? I doubt it. He gave HBO the ending of the series in broad strokes as I understand it...that's what they bought. It would be not only strange but probably a breach of contract for him to change the ending of the series that he supposedly has known the ending of for YEARS only to thwart HBO over a crisis he created himself due to his own procrastination.

[olibar]

In the credits, we see "Created by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss" then "Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin".

The TV show is it's own story only based on A Song of Ice and Fire. HBO can do whatever they want with te story at this point in the TV show and GRRM can't do a thing about it. Likewise, I am positive that HBO has no recourse as to how GRRM decides to finish the books as he has complete creative control of those. They took a gamble adapting a series that wasn't complete, and very likely that is why they insisted that they have creative control of the series, so that if they didn't like how the books turned out they could change.

HBO doesn't care about making a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF. They care about creating a TV show that people will pay to watch.

[cade]

HBO doesn't care about making a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF. They care about creating a TV show that people will pay to watch.

Exactly, and thus they have no incentive to bail GRRM out by not revealing the ending he's given them. So long as they like that ending (and D&D have said they do), there's no reason to think they won't adapt it for the show.

[Douglas Dubh]

Exactly, and thus they have no incentive to bail GRRM out by not revealing the ending he's given them. So long as they like that ending (and D&D have said they do), there's no reason to think they won't adapt it for the show.

Unless doing so would take another season and they don't think it would be worth the cost.

[Winnief]

Exactly, and thus they have no incentive to bail GRRM out by not revealing the ending he's given them. So long as they like that ending (and D&D have said they do), there's no reason to think they won't adapt it for the show.

:agree:

[cade]

Unless doing so would take another season and they don't think it would be worth the cost.

Which we have no reason to believe will happen. D&D have already said they plan to only need seven seasons to finish the story, and it's virtually guaranteed that HBO won't cancel the show before then. It appears D&D have wisely decided not to stretch the show out to accomodate GRRM and risk cancellation or an abrupt ending if HBO won't agree to the huge pay raises that an eighth season would require.

[FalseKnight]

In the credits, we see "Created by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss" then "Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin".

The TV show is it's own story only based on A Song of Ice and Fire. HBO can do whatever they want with te story at this point in the TV show and GRRM can't do a thing about it. Likewise, I am positive that HBO has no recourse as to how GRRM decides to finish the books as he has complete creative control of those. They took a gamble adapting a series that wasn't complete, and very likely that is why they insisted that they have creative control of the series, so that if they didn't like how the books turned out they could change.

HBO doesn't care about making a faithful adaptation of ASoIaF. They care about creating a TV show that people will pay to watch.

You're really grasping at straws here. The credits are not a statement of HBO's legal rights. It says "based on" because it's an adaptation. Unless you've seen the contract, you can't possibly know whether HBO has any recourse. As for GRRM's creative control that could just mean that GRRM retains the right to determine how the story reaches it's end.

[Werthead]

HBO own Game of Thrones and make all final decisions about it. The contract allows for GRRM to write one episode per season and to get a producer credit and that's really about it. GRRM has provided an outline of the ending to the producers, but it's up to them if they use it or not.

I doubt that GRRM would have, under any circumstances, signed away creative control of the novels. If the TV show ends in 2017 (as seems likely) and he doesn't finish ADoS until 2019/20, and in those intervening 2-3 years comes up with a better idea on how to end the series, then he will be able to change that.

[sifth]

Aegon's arrival is heavily foreshadowed by 1) the House of the Undying and 2) the sheer number of times (more than a dozen, starting pretty early in AGoT) that characters ruminate on the baby's face being smashed into unrecognisability. It's worth noting that people have been discussing Aegon's impending arrival in the story on this board (and its forebears) since ACoK was released at the end of 1998, 13 years before it happened in the books.

You can, and plenty have (Raymond E. Feist has this annoying habit of turning in 'extra' books in series that are completely pointless), but it's almost always a bad idea.

We see the Others in the prologue (via Varamyr) and the Others and wights are reported to be attacking the wildling refugees at Hardhome. Jon also stashes two wights-in-waiting in the ice cells at Castle Black, which I presume is going to be a significant decision.

We see Wights in the Prologue and in Bran's second chapter, we do not see The Others. Jon stashes away two dead bodies he hopes will turn into wights but never do. So the entire book is a troll when it comes to The Other's showing up.

Like what Matt Stone and Trey Parker said last season on South Park "They're on their way", just like they've been in the four prior books, lol

[RedShirt47]

Unless you've seen the contract, you can't possibly know whether HBO has any recourse. As for GRRM's creative control that could just mean that GRRM retains the right to determine how the story reaches it's end.

Whatever recourse HBO will have it will not be applied until after GRRM has published the novels. If at that stage HBO feel aggrieved and that GRRM breached the contract (in the unlikely event that it stipulates he must end the books in a pre-determined manner) then court cases will ensue.

If the lawyers and judges come to some crazy verdict that GRRM didn't have the right to end the nooks in whatever manner he chooses then the only outcome will be a monetary redress. GRRM might have to pay a few million dollars to HBO.

This would start a fan based campaign against HBO and would be dreadful publicity for them. We know HBO value their image greatly, hence their love of awards and such like. HBO would lose subscriptions due to such publicity. So I don't see this happening.

Worst case scenario GRRM publishes his story, HBO are disgruntled and consider suing but decide the publicity risk is too high and release a statement saying they are not pleased by GRRM decision but respect his artistic judgement.

[The Snow King]

I feel like Martin has, probably unintentionally, deceived HBO with respect to the length of the books. It was done after AFFC was published, and with expectations of three more books, with expectations of ADWD moving the story forward (and, well, actually dealing with the Dance of Dragons, Redux).

Instead, we can see that the story is nowhere near where it should be. If the initial plans are considered then from parts: one being Lannisters vs Stars, second being Targaryen infighting and third, Others, we only have the first part resolved.It took three books to wrap the Lannister vs Stark storyline, and the next ones didn't even start yet. Yes, there was some setting up the stage for both, but in the end, Dany hasn't even left for Westeros yet (and it seems that has to deal with the Dothraki before that), and Others so far are minor inconvenience for the Wildlings (who beaten much harder by Stannis). Even if both storylines will now play in parallel, that is still a lot of story to go through. AFFC and ADWD were mostly filler and travelogues. Yes, I did enjoy AFFC's description of the land devastated by war, they were really interesting, but it still did not move story forward. I fell if we will only have two more books, they will feel rushed and unsatisfying, or we'll have more books and the series will finish somewhere around 2080's.

That leaves D&D with a conundrum. Seven seasons are for production reasons ideal, and while they could consider having more seasons than that, nine are unlikely and ten are a hard maximum (and good luck selling that to HBO execs). I'm certain they planned for seven books, and hoped that Martin will be able to provide them on time, but that seems now unlikely. So they will also have to rush a bit to get to the ending, but they are in better situation that Martin. They can start earlier to include further storylines, and they can remove a lot of filler material, not the mention that they already cut a lot of sideplots and distractions. And of course, having only rough guidelines rather than full books means it's much easier to compress screenplay to only the bare bones of the story. Probably if they had books written, they could extend the series by season (or even two), but will be unlikely to want to fill in the blanks too much by themselves.

All in all, they are in tough spot, but in a way better one that Martin is now.

[FalseKnight]

HBO own Game of Thrones and make all final decisions about it. The contract allows for GRRM to write one episode per season and to get a producer credit and that's really about it. GRRM has provided an outline of the ending to the producers, but it's up to them if they use it or not.

I doubt that GRRM would have, under any circumstances, signed away creative control of the novels. If the TV show ends in 2017 (as seems likely) and he doesn't finish ADoS until 2019/20, and in those intervening 2-3 years comes up with a better idea on how to end the series, then he will be able to change that.

HBO bought the rights to A Song of Ice and Fire. He told them the ending, and I he could or would change that. He wants to do more business with HBO, but they're already upset with his pace and his recent comments. I'm sure he can change details but not the main ending.

If the lawyers and judges come to some crazy verdict that GRRM didn't have the right to end the nooks in whatever manner he chooses then the only outcome will be a monetary redress. GRRM might have to pay a few million dollars to HBO.

This would start a fan based campaign against HBO and would be dreadful publicity for them. We know HBO value their image greatly, hence their love of awards and such like. HBO would lose subscriptions due to such publicity. So I don't see this happening.

Worst case scenario GRRM publishes his story, HBO are disgruntled and consider suing but decide the publicity risk is too high and release a statement saying they are not pleased by GRRM decision but respect his artistic judgement.

I suspect they'd lose most ASoIaF fans when GoT ends, so I doubt fan backlash really scares them. Even if it did scare them, I suspect that relatively few of us would actually cancel our service because HBO sued to recover its losses. I personally wouldn't have much sympathy for him. He worked in TV, so he knew what he was getting into before he signed the papers.

HBO could sue GRRM a declaratory judgment or possibly an injunction before he writes ADoS.

[Winnief]

I feel like Martin has, probably unintentionally, deceived HBO with respect to the length of the books. It was done after AFFC was published, and with expectations of three more books, with expectations of ADWD moving the story forward (and, well, actually dealing with the Dance of Dragons, Redux).

Instead, we can see that the story is nowhere near where it should be. If the initial plans are considered then from parts: one being Lannisters vs Stars, second being Targaryen infighting and third, Others, we only have the first part resolved.It took three books to wrap the Lannister vs Stark storyline, and the next ones didn't even start yet. Yes, there was some setting up the stage for both, but in the end, Dany hasn't even left for Westeros yet (and it seems that has to deal with the Dothraki before that), and Others so far are minor inconvenience for the Wildlings (who beaten much harder by Stannis). Even if both storylines will now play in parallel, that is still a lot of story to go through. AFFC and ADWD were mostly filler and travelogues. Yes, I did enjoy AFFC's description of the land devastated by war, they were really interesting, but it still did not move story forward. I fell if we will only have two more books, they will feel rushed and unsatisfying, or we'll have more books and the series will finish somewhere around 2080's.

That leaves D&D with a conundrum. Seven seasons are for production reasons ideal, and while they could consider having more seasons than that, nine are unlikely and ten are a hard maximum (and good luck selling that to HBO execs). I'm certain they planned for seven books, and hoped that Martin will be able to provide them on time, but that seems now unlikely. So they will also have to rush a bit to get to the ending, but they are in better situation that Martin. They can start earlier to include further storylines, and they can remove a lot of filler material, not the mention that they already cut a lot of sideplots and distractions. And of course, having only rough guidelines rather than full books means it's much easier to compress screenplay to only the bare bones of the story. Probably if they had books written, they could extend the series by season (or even two), but will be unlikely to want to fill in the blanks too much by themselves.

All in all, they are in tough spot, but in a way better one that Martin is now.

:cheers:

Really, D&D don't have to do it exactly the way it was planned for in the books, as long as they get the biggest points and broad strikes right, (while carrying on the main themes of the series.) Martin's lack of discipline in pacing, and writing himself too many subplots to deal with, make his job a lot harder since D&D are in a position to be so much more ruthless about streamlining the storyline.

I'm quite confident, that they'll conclude things in a satisfying (if not 100% perfect) manner....Martin I'm not so sure about.