Ukraine V: You'll join Russia and like it!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Over 400 in the last thread.

[Shryke]

Jackson5tributeband:

You're sounding dangerously tea party (ish). It's far simpler than you argue. We are all born with inalienable rights, it matters not a tic on a donkeys arse what my fellow breeders decide in some over egged snout counting exercise in terms of MY rights.

The fuck are you talking about? This isn't "tea party ish", this is basic political science.

Your inalienable rights are nothing of the sort technically speaking. They are a moral and legal framework protected by various levels of political, legal and cultural rules. Including, you know, the constitution. "Inalienable Rights" is a statement of principle, not fact. Your rights can have the shit alienated out of them quite easily.

Anyway, a Constitution is an attempt to curb mob rule via procedural and ethical hurdles. It's a way to give democratic decisions more then just procedural justification by basing them in some sort of written down credo or document. Although, again, realistically this only proposes procedural hurdles.

This is all completely off topic at this point though.

The real problem is a system of government based around constitutional republicanism or monarchy, tending to degenerate into a more purer form of democracy once politicians work out that they can get elected by promising ever larger amounts of free stuff to their voters by looting the treasury. There seems no escaping this,

Personally I'd favor either a technocratic minimalist government or a severely limited monarch. Give the elections thing a miss altogether.

Uh, no, that's not the problem at all. That statement, frankly, doesn't even make any sense or have any connection to reality. It's like a mashing together of two or three normal (though not necessarily valid) criticisms of democracy, constitutional or otherwise, into a single incoherent mess.

[Suttree]

MOSCOW — Russia’s Defense Ministry announced new military operations in several regions near the Ukrainian border on Thursday, even as Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany warned the Kremlin to abandon the politics of the 19th and 20th centuries or face diplomatic and economic retaliation from a united Europe.

The operations came as Ukraine’s acting president, Oleksandr V. Turchynov, said in a statement on his official website that he believed Russian forces massed near the border were “ready to intervene in Ukraine at anytime,” and that he hoped diplomatic efforts by Ukraine and sympathetic nations would “stop the aggression.”

Underscoring the potential gravity of the troop movements, Russia’s senior commander, Valery V. Gerasimov, spoke by telephone with his NATO counterpart, Gen. Knud Bartles of Denmark, the news agency Interfax reported, citing a defense source. The details of the conversation were not disclosed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html

[snake]

An article in Der Spiegel that sheds a bit of light on why there is so much division with Ukraine, something that most western media has ignored.

Also, apparently Gerhard Shroder and Helmut Kohl have both stated that the EU and US must take some of the blame for this conflict with Russia. That they have lacked sensitivities when dealing with Russia. Shroder I can see but Kohl is a bit of a surprise.

[Schlimazl]

Is Putin saying Ukraine isn't really independent from Russia that it is some sort of breakaway provence that the Russian Federation has the authority to force back into Russia?

What Putin is saying is that Ukraine seceded from Soviet Union unlawfully, which is factually true, the Soviet law of Secession wasn't followed.What he forgot to mention is that none of the Soviet Socialist Republics, including Russia itself followed it.

Why he's mentioning it is obvious, according to the aforementioned law the seceding republic must hold a referendum on secession and in case it has autonomous regions in it there must be a separate referendum to determine it's status(whether it will remain in the seceding republic, remain in the union or go independent itself), also the status of the territories that weren't a part of the seceding republic when it joined the union must be renegotiated.

[Jon AS]

An article in Der Spiegel that sheds a bit of light on why there is so much division with Ukraine, something that most western media has ignored.

I was under the impression the diversity of the country was well publicized at this point.

Also, apparently Gerhard Shroder and Helmut Kohl have both stated that the EU and US must take some of the blame for this conflict with Russia. That they have lacked sensitivities when dealing with Russia. Shroder I can see but Kohl is a bit of a surprise.

Schröder's strong (and somewhat dubious) connections to Gazprom give him little credibility, as does his past praise for Putin's dedication to democracy. He still found it in himself to call the Russian actions a violation of international law, though.

Kohl actually was a bit more even handed, calling out a lack of sensitivity when dealing with Russia while also criticising the lack of support given to pro-Western movements within Ukraine over the past few years.

[snake]

I was under the impression the diversity of the country was well publicized at this point.

Schröder's strong (and somewhat dubious) connections to Gazprom give him little credibility, as does his past praise for Putin's dedication to democracy. He still found it in himself to call the Russian actions a violation of international law, though.

Kohl actually was a bit more even handed, calling out a lack of sensitivity when dealing with Russia while also criticising the lack of support given to pro-Western movements within Ukraine over the past few years.

There has been some passing references made to some discontent in the east and south but it could well be I'm not reading enough different sources.

I do agree somewhat with what those two former leaders said. You could sense that something like this was going to happen eventually. Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep and NATO want's to "contain" Russia by pushing them "out" of Europe. Unfortunately it's Ukraine that gets caught in the middle.

[thetitansbastard]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html

At this point I think everyone on here knows the Western/Russian/etc goverments/politicians are all out for themselves, have all done dispicable things lately, are all pathetic. Can we all at least agree on that?

eta: erased "The ignorance will be less annoying that way..I'll stick to that first sentence." from the end of the post. Not my sentiments but the above question I am interested in.

[Jon AS]

There has been some passing references made to some discontent in the east and south but it could well be I'm not reading enough different sources.

Could also be a case of different sources reporting on it differently. German media has reported on this a lot, and more so since the Maidan protests began, for example.

I do agree somewhat with what those two former leaders said. You could sense that something like this was going to happen eventually. Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep and NATO want's to "contain" Russia by pushing them "out" of Europe. Unfortunately it's Ukraine that gets caught in the middle.

Yeah, it's clear that Russia has always had concerns about EU and NATO pushing east. On the other hand that hardly justifies invading a sovereign neighbour as if Moscow was still the capital of the Soviet Union. Not that comparable Soviet actions were morally justifiable.

It's also difficult to take Schröder seriously when he's talking about Russia. Not only has his calling Putin a "flawless democrat" when trying to defend Russia's civil rights record become something of a meme in political satire, back when he left office he managed to secure a job with a Gazprom subsidiary after he'd pushed hard for some of their projects when still chancellor. It gives the impression that his support might be for sale.

[The Iceman of the North]

I do agree somewhat with what those two former leaders said. You could sense that something like this was going to happen eventually. Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep and NATO want's to "contain" Russia by pushing them "out" of Europe. Unfortunately it's Ukraine that gets caught in the middle.

This analysis reminds me of the mindset of the Yalta conference, completely ignoring what people in the countries in question wants. What Russia, or for that matter EU/NATO, wants is rather irrelevant in my eyes.

[Kungsmurfen]

Vice dispatch eight. From the protests in Dontesk. (It's violent footage and you have been varned.)

"VICE News reporter Robert King captured this scene on the streets of Donetsk, where a large group of pro-Russian activists attacked a group of pro-Ukrainian demonstrators calling for unity."

[snake]

Could also be a case of different sources reporting on it differently. German media has reported on this a lot, and more so since the Maidan protests began, for example.

Yeah, it's clear that Russia has always had concerns about EU and NATO pushing east. On the other hand that hardly justifies invading a sovereign neighbour as if Moscow was still the capital of the Soviet Union. Not that comparable Soviet actions were morally justifiable.

It's also difficult to take Schröder seriously when he's talking about Russia. Not only has his calling Putin a "flawless democrat" when trying to defend Russia's civil rights record become something of a meme in political satire, back when he left office he managed to secure a job with a Gazprom subsidiary after he'd pushed hard for some of their projects when still chancellor. It gives the impression that his support might be for sale.

There is very little that justifies invading a sovereign nation. But the large powers don't really care about that.

This analysis reminds me of the mindset of the Yalta conference, completely ignoring what people in the countries in question wants. What Russia, or for that matter EU/NATO, wants is rather irrelevant in my eyes.

That is the thing though isn't it. The Russians, EU/US/NATO don't really care what the Ukraine wants as long as their geopolitical goals are met. Almost like GRRM's comment about the innocents suffering when the high lords play their game of thrones. A sad reality but not one that is about to change anytime soon unfortunately.

[Jon AS]

I think that simply because one subscribes to the idea that the various powers have similar aims and will disregard the desires of smaller countries if they can get away with it, one shouldn't fall into the trap of regarding their methods as morally equivalent. In this case "the West" spent its time negotiating with the Ukrainian government, then trying to broker a deal between protesters and said government and now appears to hope that the elections in May will put somebody in power with whom you can have your picture taken without being too embarassed. Russia in the meantime has invaded Ukraine, overthrown the regional government of Crimea and is now holding a referendum under circumstances that are simply ludicrous.

On top of that they are now making noises that they could use the death of a protester in Donetsk (who by some accounts was a Svoboda activist) as an excuse to intervene in that area as well, because the government in Kiev can't guarantee the safety of Russians in eastern Ukraine.

[Jackson5tributeband]

Jackson5tributeband:

The fuck are you talking about? This isn't "tea party ish", this is basic political science.

Your inalienable rights are nothing of the sort technically speaking. They are a moral and legal framework protected by various levels of political, legal and cultural rules. Including, you know, the constitution. "Inalienable Rights" is a statement of principle, not fact. Your rights can have the shit alienated out of them quite easily.

Anyway, a Constitution is an attempt to curb mob rule via procedural and ethical hurdles. It's a way to give democratic decisions more then just procedural justification by basing them in some sort of written down credo or document. Although, again, realistically this only proposes procedural hurdles.

This is all completely off topic at this point though.

Uh, no, that's not the problem at all. That statement, frankly, doesn't even make any sense or have any connection to reality. It's like a mashing together of two or three normal (though not necessarily valid) criticisms of democracy, constitutional or otherwise, into a single incoherent mess.

I didn't bring up the subject you did.

If you consider yourself an autonomous free person, i.e. not someone elses property, then of course you have inalienable rights. Yes through use of force other people or the state can enslave you, this does not mean you lose your rights, rather your means to exercise them are being denied through violence. Having the use of violence approved in a snout counting vote doesn't make it more moral or just.

Btw keep a civil tongue in your head, I don't appreciate profanity, if you dislike other peoples opinions ignore them which is what i'll be doing with you from now on.

[Jackson5tributeband]

Could also be a case of different sources reporting on it differently. German media has reported on this a lot, and more so since the Maidan protests began, for example.

Yeah, it's clear that Russia has always had concerns about EU and NATO pushing east. On the other hand that hardly justifies invading a sovereign neighbour as if Moscow was still the capital of the Soviet Union. Not that comparable Soviet actions were morally justifiable.

It's also difficult to take Schröder seriously when he's talking about Russia. Not only has his calling Putin a "flawless democrat" when trying to defend Russia's civil rights record become something of a meme in political satire, back when he left office he managed to secure a job with a Gazprom subsidiary after he'd pushed hard for some of their projects when still chancellor. It gives the impression that his support might be for sale.

Best thing the EU could do would be to rapidly expand it's energy self sufficiency drive, through efficiency measures and more importantly through the rapid approval of non conventional hydrocarbon extraction. It would cut Russia off at the knees.

[Werthead]

Referendum poster in the Ukraine.

[DanteGabriel]

Referendum poster in the Ukraine.

Way to Godwin an entire goddamn election, Putin.

[Fez]

Referendum poster in the Ukraine.

Oh no! Goodwin has escaped the internet! Everybody, run!

[Werthead]

Russians scientists cloning wooly mammoth, almost certainly so Putin can ride it victorious and bareback into Sevastopol after his inevitable victory.

Sadly, it looks like they won't quite make it in time.

[Castel]

I didn't bring up the subject you did.

If you consider yourself an autonomous free person, i.e. not someone elses property, then of course you have inalienable rights. Yes through use of force other people or the state can enslave you, this does not mean you lose your rights, rather your means to exercise them are being denied through violence. Having the use of violence approved in a snout counting vote doesn't make it more moral or just.

Btw keep a civil tongue in your head, I don't appreciate profanity, if you dislike other peoples opinions ignore them which is what i'll be doing with you from now on.

So if whatever entity that decides what property is and what rights there are to it decides so my rights have, to quote Shryke:"had the shit alienated out of them"? :dunno: