will LF give sansa some sort of seduction training?

[mambru]

I don't think anyone's casting anathema on kids showing sexual interest at age 12-13. That's normal. I think the issue is about the TOPIC of this thread, which is that of a fully adult male giving "seduction training" to a 13 year old who is in a position of helpless coercion.

[Le Cygne]

But you are stating that in terms of teenager and adult. Also you state the "adult" is a male. The author said Sansa is considered an adult in Westeros.

The topic is, will Littlefinger teach Sansa to seduce men. Then the discussion becomes, where is the textual evidence for this. What would be the purpose. Etc.

In other words, she is acting without consent NOT because she's a teenager or female. She's acting without consent because he has kidnapped and threatened her.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Is this fanfic or from the books? If it's cannon then that proves my theory that Cat was not disinterested like Arya is when she was her age.

She showed interest in Brandon who she was engaged to at 12 and she said she used to pretend to be Jenny and Duncan with LF. She spoke positively about sex with Ned and wanted to give him another child.

Now if they were kissing then that is sexual interest at a young age.

ETA: Nevermind I searched mint in my kindle and this quote is from AGoT. I always said that children can be sexual. I don't mean want to have sex but they can kiss, want to hug/touch, hold hands, or just be near each other. They are capable of this.

Careful now Arya_Nym, Wedding Guest will accuse you of being a paedophile apologist! ;)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well I must say that that was the biggest load of BS I've ever had the misfortune to have read wedding Guest. congratulations. You are a master of re direction & the Strawman, I applaud you.

You have done a sterling job of proving my point, the original intent of my first post being the desire to address the way people tend to twist the words of those who are accepting of the emerging sexuality of teenage girls in this story, to try and make out they have some sick attitude towards sex and are some sort of peado apologists. Thanks.

You've made some pretty far fetched assumptions about my own thoughts and feelings in regard to sex and taken the very broad and general points I was making in regard to the way sexuality develops alongside puberty and the very real role Hormones play, in people who hit puberty at a Normal age and gone in some absurd direction in order to serve your own agenda. Congratulations you look like a prat.

I know all about the cultures which require sexual restraint pre marriage I grew up in one & I really wouldn't be trying to claim that these people have a healthy attitude towards sex at all. Or that the way these poor kids who are pushed into early marriage and made to conform to misguided religious idealism or face the disapproval of their entire community, parents etc are always truthfully virgins on their wedding days, or that they all live in wedded bliss for eternity.

Now I am certain there are some people who are truly consenting to the suppressive lifestyle they are raised in, some who chose this way of life for themselves too. But I am equally certain that there are many desperately conflicted young teens who are struggling with their normal natural feelings and the unhealthy shame filled dogma that they are surrounded by.

Not entirely suppressing ones sexuality does not equate to being amoral and acting on every sexual urge one ever has. Your implication that this is my thought pattern is pathetic, your grasping at straws.

MK Leatourneau, who the what now???

I'm British I have no idea who this is or the way their relationship slots into your weak and grasping argument.

We've already established that I agree with you regarding authority figures grooming people for sex and how this is abusive. I was very complimentary about your words on this if you recall, so you really don't need to try to make out I am blind to this issue. You howether made a statement regarding casual sex between two consenting individuals saying you felt there is a blurred line and that really these people are not able to consent to casual sex as they somehow don't realise they are in fact participating in exploitation.This is paternalistic and judgemental. I called you out on that. You can't cover your arse by attempting to make out you were referring to cases of authority abuse. If you had meant that you would have said so, but you were talking about all casual sex. I am a big advocate for the Cersei Lancell relationship being an abusive one. I bring it up frequently she abused her position and their relationship was abusive, he was a young person and she the queen. But he consented to the sex. lots of people have consensual sex within abusive relationships. These are two separate issues.

Mental maturation is again something which varies tremendously, some people in their 20's are not intellectually psychologically and emotionally mature enough to handle sexual relationships. I guess my OP was more a stab at the attitude expressed across the board regarding the sex in the story, I read over and over again people saying that Sansa is not becoming interested in sex, that girls her age don't or can't become sexual. I read so many foul, derogatory things regarding Dany's sexuality. I rarely read anyone expressing disbelief that the boys in series are interested in sex and act upon their desires. And I decided to give my two penneth on the subject.

" In a nutshell, while I don't agree with slut-shaming, I don't agree with the idea of shaming people who DON'T act on every single sexual desire as "suppressed" or "prudes", and I think erring on the side of caution when it comes to 13 year olds having sex is appropriate because the harms of having sex before being ready are MUCH more than the harms of suppressing one's sexuality."

I'm so glad you don't agree with slut shaming, neither do I. I too don't believe in shaming those who don't act on every single sexual desire, I'm not trying to Shame the people who exorcise normal restraint. But I will point out that suppressing EVERY sexual thought & feeling you have is deeply unhealthy.

How are you erring on the side of caution when it comes to 13 year olds having sex? how is anyone's other than your own (and I assume you are not 13) sexuality any of your business? What exactly are the Harms of having sex before being ready, assuming that you yourself have decided you are ready for sex?Surely the only person who knows if you are ready is yourself? how do you know when another person is ready? do you have some sort of beeline to other peoples brains which goes "ping" when they have reached the point at which they are capable of true consent.

I would argue that the harms of suppressing your own sexuality are extremely damaging, I know a few people who were required through their religious upbringing to suppress their sexuality and they have deep life long problems due to it, struggling to develop loving relationships, struggling with sex even as adults in consensual relationships due to deep seated feelings if guilt & shame.

I'd say that when we are speaking about young adults having consensual sex with a peer using protection that any potential for harm is far less than the harm done in pressuring them to suppress normal healthy natural desire.

[mambru]

But you are stating that in terms of teenager and adult. Also you state the "adult" is a male. The author said Sansa is considered an adult in Westeros.

The topic is, will Littlefinger teach Sansa to seduce men. Then the discussion becomes, where is the textual evidence for this. What would be the purpose. Etc.

In other words, she is acting without consent NOT because she's a teenager or female. She's acting without consent because he has kidnapped and threatened her.

Sorry, no, that's not all that's wrong with the situation. Even if he had not kidnapped and threatened her, he still would be occupying a paternal position over her - and sexually trespassing over paternal boundaries IS violating both our taboos AND those of Westeros. It would be a taboo even if both participants were adults - and it's even more so when the girl is still a child, who due to immaturity is still more liable to manipulation by adults than another adult is.

And the fact that she is menstruating does not make her a mature woman, either here OR in Westeros...unless you seriously state that if a girl started menstruating at the age of nine in Westeros, Westerosi men would proclaim her as fully capable and wise as a grown woman.

[Le Cygne]

I don't care about "here" - I care about Westeros. And I'm not the one stating it, the author did. We're talking about consent to sexual activity here, not wisdom. Wisdom varies. There are very wise teenagers and very stupid old people.

Moved GRRM quote forward.

[mambru]

So? In medieval times a girl could be legally disposed of in marriage when she menstruated. And not just medieval times - even in the US till the 20th century in many states it was legal for a thirteen year old girl to marry - but only WITH the permission of her parents. Reaching puberty AND reaching the age of adulthood with the wisdom to manage one's destiny are two very separate things - hence the reason that the age of majority (18 or 21) is MUCH higher than the age of puberty.

Of course, in Westeros, where a woman is almost NEVER allowed the freedom to manage her destiny regardless of how old she is, there's not much interest in establishing what the actual boundary of adulthood for a woman is, versus the legal boundary for the guardian of the girl to dispose of her on the marriage market like a head of cattle.

But that doesn't mean the Westerosi don't understand the difference between "menstruating child" and "grown woman." Just off the top of my head I can remember quite a few times this difference was pointed out. Ned saying eleven-year-old Sansa was "much too young" for marriage, even though realistically Sansa could start getting her period any day now. Catelyn not getting married till she was sixteen. Tyrion looking at twelve year old Sansa's naked body and saying "You're a child," even though she's flowered and is therefore supposedly an "adult." Hell, even Tywin telling Tyrion that he only had to rape Sansa ONCE and then he could leave her alone for awhile till she'd grown up enough to bear children - all these things do show that even Westerosi acknowledge there's a difference.

I mean, do you think that GRRM would say that a Westerosi five year old girl who menstruated would be considered an "adult" and not a child in Westeros? (Yes, it does happen. Look up the case of Lina Medina on snopes.com, and weep).

Also, you're not addressing my point at all that LF is sexually violating paternal boundaries by molesting Sansa, which would be violating a taboo in Westeros even if he HADN'T kidnapped and threatened her, and even if she WAS much older than she is.

[Le Cygne]

You're fighting the author. You want a different story than the one he's telling. Age of consent means age of consent, same as today, he's just defining this for Westeros, for his story. A story of a young woman coming of age and coming into her own. You are talking paternalism. He is talking agency.

Catelyn corrected Ned, and he listened. She reminded him that Sansa is becoming a woman, just as she became one. And coming of age has nothing to do with arranged marriages, but there are many examples throughout the story of women expressing agency within this framework. Lyanna Stark, expressing agency at 14, set the story in motion.

Tyrion himself married at 13, and he fully intended to have sex with Sansa, he made that perfectly clear, that was the purpose of the marriage ("I want you" and "I want Winterfell"). It wasn't her age that stopped him, it was Sansa and her courtesy armor strategy, refusing to play along, which he wanted her to do. She doesn't want him.

Littlefinger is not Sansa's father nor is he acting as her father, and neither of them thinks he is. It's a scam, Sansa says so. Sansa is playing her own hand there, biding her time, she says so. And she is resisting him in her thoughts. He tells her to give him "another kiss" but she chooses "another kiss" with another man. She doesn't want Littlefinger, either.

Sansa is making her own choices sexually, and to appreciate this, you have to acknowledge she's a woman. That's what he's saying here. She's at the age of consent. She chooses. If she's forced, it's because someone is taking her choice away. But she had the choice in the first place, because the author gave it to her.

Your examples that were taken out of context:

Catelyn, responding to Ned: "And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon." (because she knows Sansa is becoming a woman)

Sansa ("Thirteen, when the moon turns"), when Tyrion said she was a child: "I've flowered." (because she knows she's a woman)

Tyrion (who himself was married at 13), after telling Sansa to take off her clothes, just before jumping into bed with her and groping her breast, fully intending to have sex with her but she refused to play along and pretend to desire him: "I want you." (because he knows she's a woman)

Sansa, to Littlefinger: I am not your daughter. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell. and once again, "I’m not, though. Your daughter. Not truly." (because she knows he's not her father, neither sees him this way)

Found another quote:

SANSA, calling herself a woman: But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

[mambru]

Sansa ("Thirteen, when the moon turns"), when Tyrion said she was a child: "I've flowered."

He knows that. He said it anyway.

[Le Cygne]

More GRRM on the context of ages in Westeros:

Moved GRRM quote forward.

[mambru]

"They had child and adult. And the difference between them was the onset of sexual maturity."

And yet, that's wrong. In GRRM's own universe, boy lords who have no doubt reached puberty are not considered adults - they require Regents to act for them, regardless of how many pubic hairs they have developed, until they reach the age of majority (which is, as I noted, far higher than the age of onset of puberty). So to say that puberty makes them adults isn't true even in GRRM's universe.

Does GRRM contradict himself? Very well then, he contradicts himself. He is large, he contains multitudes.

[SpringKing]

And yet, that's wrong. In GRRM's own universe, boy lords who have no doubt reached puberty are not considered adults - they require Regents to act for them, regardless of how many pubic hairs they have developed, until they reach the age of majority (which is, as I noted, far higher than the age of onset of puberty). So to say that puberty makes them adults isn't true even in GRRM's universe.

Does GRRM contradict himself? Very well then, he contradicts himself. He is large, he contains multitudes.

Age of consent, driving age, age of majority, and legal drinking age can be, and often are, different. Regency until age 16 is analogous to the US Constitutional requirements that a congressman be at least 25, a senator 30, and a president 35.

IRL, adults arent allowed to do certain things either.

[WeddinGuest]

I always said that children can be sexual. I don't mean want to have sex but they can kiss, want to hug/touch, hold hands, or just be near each other. They are capable of this.

ARYa_Nym, I find nothing shocking in that. However, as you yourself state, being "sexual" is not the same as actually wanting to have sex. It's certainly quite different from actually engaging in sexual intercourse, as opposed to kissing, hugging, hand-holding, etc. Cat played kissing games at age 12, but we know she did not actually have sex at that age, as despite what LF thinks, it was Ned who took her maidenhead, likely no younger than age 17. Also, while we do see Cat enjoying sex, we don't see Cat ever thinking "gee I should have had sex with LF when I could and just told Ned I lost my maidenhead from horse riding".

Weirwood's Eyes, I did not ever accuse you of being a pedophile apologist. A pedophile is someone who is attracted to PRE-pubescent children. My hypothetical 9 year old would not be PRE-pubescent because she's already had her period, which for women marks full sexual maturity, and has sexual feelings and urges, and is masturbating and enjoying it. These were the criteria you earlier stated could be used to decide when people were ready to have sex. You only admitted to the other criteria being important, when I pointed out that if those were the only criteria, then a post-pubescent 9 year old would be ready to have sex. Not kissing, not snogging, not whatever terms are used in the UK to describe sexual exploration, but actual sexual intercourse.

BTW, I also know people from "sexually repressive" cultures and while it's possible they're all lying to me, not all such cultures also teach people that sex is dirty and that sexual urges should be suppressed. Many actually find MORE freedom in knowing they can actually develop romantic relationships without worrying about whether they should have the socially expected sex on the 3rd or 4th date, or whether to worry about getting pregnant or getting an STD(even if they use birth control nothing is 100%), or worrying whether their prospective partners actually love them for being PEOPLE, not just as sexual partners. There are even people who *gasp* choose to go into arranged marriages, valuing a stable relationship with someone who shares their religious and cultural values over sexual attraction and love, and are actually faithful to their partners, although of course this means they must suppress sexual desires for others, again by their own CHOICE.

As for your idea that all people who "suppress sexual drives" are shamed into doing so, well, there are also people from traditional cultures who dress modestly, even wear headcovers, NOT because they are shamed into doing so by others, but as a mark of self-respect. If you live in the UK, then I'm sure you're familiar with the edicts passed in France that OUTLAWED the wearing of such headcovers in public schools. You may find that to be a great enlightened approach to free women from patriarchal cultures, but I found it to be an unconscionable violation of the rights of the girls who CHOOSE to wear headcoverings. Because just because YOU wouldn't follow a culture practice unless someone coerced or shamed you into it, doesn't mean everyone who does it was coerced. To assume "a person's choice NOT to have sex is invalid because s/he was coerced" is just as ridiculous to me as assuming "a person's choice to have sex is invalid because s/he was coerced". I think these issues should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

You howether made a statement regarding casual sex between two consenting individuals saying you felt there is a blurred line and that really these people are not able to consent to casual sex as they somehow don't realise they are in fact participating in exploitation. This is paternalistic and judgemental. I called you out on that. You can't cover your arse by attempting to make out you were referring to cases of authority abuse. If you had meant that you would have said so, but you were talking about all casual sex.

Now you're using a strawman by stating I think ALL casual sex involves exploitation. I never stated that or meant that. I stated,

I also think the line between consensual casual sex and sexual exploitation is much blurrier than many assume.

Of course I didn't mean ALL casual sex anymore than you meant ALL girls who are one year past their first period are ready to have sex. But you know that, right?

"Mental maturation is again something which varies tremendously, some people in their 20's are not intellectually psychologically and emotionally mature enough to handle sexual relationships. "

I assume you think they're still mature enough to handle one-night stands, though? I didn't bother calling you out earlier, but if you're going to dredge up older posts so shall I, and point out that many teens would be offended by your assumption here:

Relationships which grow first and later become love which leads to sex are wonderful too but usually come later in life, once we've matured and our hormones don't drive us in quite the same way.

This implies that teenage relationships are all about SEX SEX SEX, and that teens become mature enough to express their sexuality through one-night-stands and casual relationships, before they are mature enough to have actual loving sexual relationships. Many teens would disagree with that.

Tyrion, well he was 13, he had sex with Tysha and then married her and they had lots and lots and lots of sex. Hmmm seems very similar to Robb & Jeyne,& Jon & Ygritte, sex first(desire) then love grows from that.

Again, this reduction of teenage romance to "lots and lots of sex" actually strikes me as very close to how Tywin dismisses Tysha's significance to Tyrion by calling her "your first whore", or how Alliser Thorne calls Ygritte an "unwashed whore", or even how Sybelle Spicer gets Jeyne to be alone with Robb as much as possible to "let nature take its course", certainly assuming her daughter was mature enough to have sex, but when she actually dares to proclaim her LOVE for Robb, calls her a "willful child" and beats her.

All these people seem to agree with the idea that post-pubescent teens are old enough to have sex, but not old enough to form any valid, meaningful loving relationships. And while I'll give you Jon/Ygritte as an example of sex before love, I think there's no way to state what happened with Robb/Jeyne. I recall I actually posted on tumblr under another username positing the possibility that despite what Cat assumed, Robb and Jeyne may have had a sexual relationship for more than one day before they wed, and another tumblr user posted a very thoughtful rebuttal as to how they could have fallen in love but refrained from having sex at first because they knew what the repercussions for Jeyne would be, until of course Robb got the really bad news that made him behave irrationally. As for Tyrion/Tysha, I think in their case the sex part and love part were quite intertwined and developed simultaenously. But I think the narrative makes it clear that Tyrion didn't marry Tysha thinking "I wanna have sex every day" but out of a desperate yearning for love.

As for Sansa, while I wouldn't be shocked and scandalized by her having sex in ASOS, I would still find it OOC for her to have sex outside some semblance of a loving relationship. Yes she doesn't seem shocked by Mya having sex with Mychel or LF claiming he had sex with Cat out of wedlock, but Mya wanted to marry Mychel, and LF wanted to marry Cat. It wasn't just casual sex designed to relieve mutual sexual urges. Even the whole SanSan thing is rife with marriage cloak references. I certainly (to get back to the OP) doubt Sansa will ever turn into a Cersei 2.0 who uses sex to manipulate men into doing her bidding.

ETA: I pondered whether to include this but just so everyone knows where I'm coming from: I believe I was inappropriately sexualized at a young age by an authority figure. It did not involve actual intercourse and I didn't see it as abusive at the time. I also acted out sexually with peers, though no intercourse was involved. No one ever questioned my behavior and thought it a warning flag for abuse, but attributed it to normal teenage hormones. It wasn't.

Once I realized what had happened was wrong, I actually did become very sex-averse, even hyper-religious like Lancel, and while I've recovered from that to some extent, I think I'll be scarred by what happened for the rest of my life. So there's where my concern comes from. Of course it makes me biased, as does the experiences of Weirwood's Eyes, as does everyone's experiences. So be it.

[ARYa_Nym]

ARYa_Nym, I find nothing shocking in that. However, as you yourself state, being "sexual" is not the same as actually wanting to have sex. It's certainly quite different from actually engaging in sexual intercourse, as opposed to kissing, hugging, hand-holding, etc. Cat played kissing games at age 12, but we know she did not actually have sex at that age, as despite what LF thinks, it was Ned who took her maidenhead, likely no younger than age 17. Also, while we do see Cat enjoying sex, we don't see Cat ever thinking "gee I should have had sex with LF when I could and just told Ned I lost my maidenhead from horse riding".

Yes, I agree that it doesn't mean that they want to actually have sex. I think there are different stages. Innocent sexual interest->fondling/fingering (spin the bottle preteen/early teen age)->oral sex/full on sex.

I was saying that Catelyn already had sexual interest in males which does not mean that she wanted to actually have sex but there's still without a doubt evidence of her being heterosexual at age 11. She was no older than Sansa and Sansa was 11 in AGoT.

She is usually said to be like Arya in this respect and I've never agreed. First of all there's no evidence. We don't see her as a child and this quote goes against it.

Cat was experimenting already at 11. Arya is in Braavos surrounded by males in a relatively stable environment and is interest in...not a single one of them. If she had a crush on Gendry it was entirely asexual and devoid of desire even in the child like sense of the examples that I used and what Catelyn and Lysa were doing. When Talea tells her that Brea lets boys touch her that sparks as much interest as if someone mentioned the weather. Cat and Lysa were giggling which indicates excitement. Sansa at 12 was already fantasizing about Loras. Her heart is beating in his presence in ACoK which indicates physical reaction. Arya has no physical reactions ever. In the same book she thinks about undressing and caressing him.

Of course I agree and doubt that Cat wanted to have sex with LF but still she let him touch her. Arya is not doing that nor is interested in it.

[Julia Martell]

:stillsick: I'm sorry, this thread made me barf in my mouth a little.

[Northernmonkey]

I think all this stuff about Arya being asexual is complete bollocks.

She's basically spent all the time in the books running for her life, murdering people or grieving for her dead family members - don't you think it would be weird if GRRM inserted a few sentences where she thinks about the boys she fancies? Her storyline is one long traumatic experience and she clearly doesn't have time for schoolgirl romances.

[mambru]

Age of consent, driving age, age of majority, and legal drinking age can be, and often are, different.

Precisely. And there are REASONS for that difference. It is the legal recognition of the fact that certain markers of physical maturity are not necessarily signs of mental maturity. The lord may be strong and grown enough to bed a woman and trot off to war - but NOT considered old enough to succeed to a man's estate - because he's STILL legally a child and therefore considered likely to be too unwise to handle it, regardless of the state of his body.

Age of consent laws in our time (which vary from place to place, but ALWAYS exist) are the recognition of the fact that physical readiness for sex doesn't necessarily mean mental readiness - especially not to deal with coercion by a genuine adult.

What bugs me is the confusion of the Westerosi idea that "a girl who bleeds is old enough to have sex" (regardless of whether that girl is sixteen or six) with OUR idea that she's old enough to CONSENT with full understanding. As in:

But you are stating that in terms of teenager and adult. Also you state the "adult" is a male. The author said Sansa is considered an adult in Westeros...

In other words, she is acting without consent NOT because she's a teenager or female. She's acting without consent because he has kidnapped and threatened her.

Our modern idea of age of consent has nothing to do with the Westerosi idea of female sexual maturity. The twelve year old Westerosi girl is NOT freely consenting to sex when she is offered up in marriage. Her adult guardian is consenting to the sex FOR HER. Her own desire and permission (or lack of it) is completely immaterial from a legal Westerosi standpoint.

So yeah, it's legal to marry off a menstruating child in Westeros whether she wants it or not. But legal doesn't necessarily make right, not in our world and not in Westeros, either. And the fact that even Westerosi would not necessarily consider such a thing right is shown by Ned's reluctance to marry off Sansa, by Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa and recognizing her as a child even though he knows very well she's "beddable" by strictly legal standards, even by Tywin's recognition that continuing to have sex after deflowering twelve year old Sansa would endanger a child's life with a pregnancy her body is too immature to handle.

And IMO, LF misusing his position as guardian and official father to molest the thirteen year old girl under his care would likely be considered wrong in Westeros even if it was considered technically legal - so "seduction" wouldn't be the right word.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think all this stuff about Arya being asexual is complete bollocks.

She's basically spent all the time in the books running for her life, murdering people or grieving for her dead family members - don't you think it would be weird if GRRM inserted a few sentences where she thinks about the boys she fancies? Her storyline is one long traumatic experience and she clearly doesn't have time for schoolgirl romances.

I'm not saying she definitely is one. There's still room for her to change. Egg was like that at her age but then again it's entirely possible that she will stay the same.

Romance and sex don't have to be the same. That would be especially true for someone who spends their days in brothels which would show that the two don't have to have anything to do with one another. Asexuals are actually capable of being romantic and having crushes.

[Northernmonkey]

I'm not saying she definitely is one. There's still room for her to change. Egg was like that at her age but then again it's entirely possible that she will stay the same.

Romance and sex don't have to be the same. That would be especially true for someone who spends their days in brothels which would show that the two don't have to have anything to do with one another. Asexuals are actually capable of being romantic and having crushes.

I guess it's possible but there's absolutely no evidence for it so far. Like I said it would be very weird if Arya stopped in the middle of all her killing/grieving/running for her life to suddenly think about how horny she was.

[ARYa_Nym]

I guess it's possible but there's absolutely no evidence for it so far. Like I said it would be very weird if Arya stopped in the middle of all her killing/grieving/running for her life to suddenly think about how horny she was.

Well, not even horny. Sansa had a crush on Waymar Royce which I'm guessing is before AGoT so she would have been younger. Jeyne Poole seemed to like Theon. Bran likes Meera and is younger. Lysa was already kissing and Cat said she was younger than Arya was in AGoT. I don't think it's age and I think it could have already been in her POV from AGoT but it wasn't there to begin with. She's not running anymore in Braavos. That's what I was saying about the relatively stable environment. She has grief but so does Bran and Sansa and they have crushes.