will LF give sansa some sort of seduction training?

[Le Cygne]

WeddinGuest, I did not address anyone specifically, nor was I thinking of anyone specifically, I was asked what Sansa fans think, and said most of the ones I know don't post anymore. If you don't like what I said, that's fine with me, but don't put words in my mouth.

[SpringKing]

I think it's clear SR isn't long for this world. Perhaps she might find herself having to look the other way as LF gives him an overdose, rather than actually committing murder herself.

The fact is, Sansa has commanded that Maester Colemon "look the other way" as she orders him to give what Colemon fears to be an overdose. By not "committing murder herself" it will allow her to rationalize the accusation that Colemon killed Sweet Robin. Accusing Arya as traitor to Cersei was a figurative kinslaying she never regrets. Accusing Colemon of her cousin's death will be a second-hand kinslaying she will never admit.

Actually, at the risk of sounding pedantic, you didn't specify; you asked for an example of Sansa blaming innocent people, examples which SpringKing provided. And that list does indeed hold up: Sansa blamed Arya (repeatedly) for the Trident incident (when Arya was blameless), she blamed Mycah by claiming that he attacked Joffrey (when Mycah had done no such thing), and she blamed Marillion for Lysa's murder (when Marillion, while being indeed an "asshole who tried to rape Sansa and was going to let her be murdered," was innocent of Lysa's murder). True, most of these instances of blaming took place after the fact when discussing responsibility, as opposed to being aimed at achieving a specific result (as with Marillion), but they do share Sansa blaming people for acts of which they are innocent.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it a "penchant," but there are repeated instances of Sansa blaming innocent people, and it's not a bridge too far to wonder, as SpringKing did, whether she might do the same with Colemon, and certainly not trolling as you suggest.

Its Sansa's total lack of repent for her lies that makes them a penchant. Among certain factions of fans its deemed to be a base provocation to suggest that Sansa's primary arc isnt Cinderella or 'damsel in distress' but instead, a camouflaged version of 'good girl gone bad'. Age, infatuation, intimidation and fear all only mask that ultimately those poor, unhappy choices were hers alone to make. Just as, in the end, it is the slave's choice to be so.

Sansa, seen as Cat re-incarnate, has violated every ideal in the Tully motto - Family, Duty, Honor. Winter is coming for Sansa, but from the inside out.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Please bare with me as I'm trying to get my thoughts on this over in as diplomatic a way as possible.

Littlefinger may or may not feel he ought to have "the talk" with Sansa prior to the wedding he is proposing, But I really don't think he's going to be teaching her the secrets of the pillow house as in Doreah &Dany. As has been pointed out Harry is being set up as a jerk, he'll be expecting a young Virgin to have her sexually bold would ring alarm bells and spoil the chances of his (LF) plan coming off. Sansa's sexual inexperience is a huge "selling point" for this to come off to convince the previous marriage was never consummated etc. I think that the way women in Westeros are married off is a valuable commentary on the problematic issues of female sexuality which we face in our own world.

And that is evidenced in the way people speak about the female characters in ASOIAF in regards to sex. And the assumptions they are making about female sexuality in our own world too.

I'm going to use some quotes from this thread to illustrate my point.

" Long ago I heard someone say that it's bad for a girl's emotional development to be sexualized in her early teens. "

What exactly does this even mean? is it being suggested that its somehow damaging to girls specifically to have sexual experiences until they reach some sort of watershed age? Don't we all develop sexuality at our own pace? why would it damage girls to become sexually aware before this imaginary age than it would boys? are our psyche's weaker somehow?

What does this person mean by "sexualised" Is the suggestion that the girl has no sexuality of her own and only exists sexually in relation to things being done to her. Or is the suggestion that sexualised means non consensual encounters? well surely they are emotionally damaging to everyone regardless of age or gender?

"Maybe it's different if it happens in a stable marriage like with Dany."

Doesn't this just play into the myth that women are not able to have, not "designed" for casual sex? that we all (women) only desire sex within the confines of a long term stable relationship? So what we can't handle casual sex? It might damage us?

Then there is this seemingly well meaning paragraph

"And I can't believe there is anyone who wouldn't think it is bad to sexualise girls so early...

I don't know which Queen was married at a very young age, but she was trautamised that her husband actually consumed the marriage and she even became infertile.

there was another queen as well who had to marry at a realy young age, and her husband didn't wait as well, and she died due to complications of the pregnancy (since it was not long enoght for the child to come the child didn't live either)

there was a princes who simply run away to a convent became a nun and refused to marry anyone after she was "sexualised"."

Again are we using this word sexualised to imply things done TO a person such as the way we often refer to very young children who are being pushed into behaving and appearing in a very adult way. AKA the issue we have today with sexually suggestive slogans on shirts for 6 yr olds? and child beauty pageants, little girls learning and performing sexed up dance routines. padded bras for 8 yr olds and thongs on pre pubescent children, All of which I would call early sexualisation.

Or are we referring to adolescent girls/young women who are beginning to experience and explore sexuality? The former being wholly wrong the latter being otally normal. If we are going to assume that as Sansa the person under discussion, and she is 13 and a bit. That they mean the latter then why is it "bad" that girls of 13 ish may become sexual on their own terms? Does the person making this statement feel the same regarding 13 yr old boys? is it "bad" to allow them to begin to have sexual urges too.

Doesn't all this smack of repressive puritanism? Where any sexuality expressed outside of the confines of marriage is some how wrong.

After making this vague yet highly judgemental statement several examples of what appears to be cases of historical sexual abuse are used. Very vague examples to be sure. Any woman who is married off and forced to have sex will be traumatised & a child being sexually abused within a Marriage is repulsive and sure to result in trauma. How that is relevant to the normal burgeoning sexuality of a 13 year old I have no idea? The fact is that arranged & forced marriages are extremely problematic, and child marriage is even more so, these issues are raised in the series and we are invited to ponder the fact that both exist in our own world too, and have done across almost every culture at some point in our history.

Now this is all directed towards people who have a problem with a 13 year old Girl exploring sexuality for herself, developing sexual feelings and wanting to experience sexual acts. I personally think its likely that Sansa will have some sex talks with Myranda, she might then have further sexual dreams about Sandor (seen as he is the Only person she has expressed a real desire for, in story) they might go further and the made up kiss memory might get expanded into a full sexual fantasy, complete with masturbation. AND THAT WOULD ALL BE NORMAL FOR A 13 YR OLD GIRL!!! I'm quite offended at just how many people are horrified by the idea of a 13 year old girl beginning to have sexual thoughts. I am outright disgusted by the way people talk about Dany's sexuality.

No one has ever to my knowledge expressed any disbelief, or distaste at Robb and Jeyne (Jeyne is a married woman, so she gets a pass to have sex.) having sex, or Jon & Ygritte (Ygritte is older and belongs to a less "civilised" culture. )and it is very infrequent that people pick up on the fact Cersei Groomed & Abused Lancel. All young teenagers. All male. But also all 2 or so years older than sansa. so is it her Gender? or her age? would people accept that she can be developing sexuality if she were aged up 2 years? I think personally its a combination of her age and gender. People do seem to have issues with young female sexuality and this is something I take issue with. its often implied in posts but not explicitly stated.

" at least in the world of ASOIAF in GRRM's mind, where supposedly girls at that age can have unproblematically consensual sex: Tysha (barely a year older than Tyrion, who was 13 when she married him), Dany (13), Arianne (lost hervirginity at 14),"

This quote does suggest that the person thinks its IMPOSSIBLE for a younger teenage girl to have "unproblematically consensual sex." I'm offended by that suggestion. It does imply that girls are incapable of consenting to sex before some arbitrary age. We have an age of consent, its 16 in most places. and thats a good thing, a really good thing, its also 13 in some places. and 18 in others. Aparently in Madagascar its 21!! Some countries have proviso's about the age and posistion of a sexual partner, so as to attempt to prevent exploitation & abuse. Crucially though the age of consent applies to both genders, because you know what women are just as sexual as men. Many places still maintain an older age of consent for homosexual people, WHY? are they also deemed incapable of making their own choices?

There is a wide range of when people think teenagers are ready to comprehend consent and deal with the complexity of sexual intercourse. But that age of consent does not mean that all teenagers are ready at that age, or that some are not ready earlier or later. Its individual. And certainly there is no genetic marker that causes female teenagers (or homosexual ones)to be less capable of making those choices than male ones. There is no switch that gets turned on for boys at 13/14 but not for girls until (insert arbitrary age here) It seems quite readily accepted that a 12-15 yr old boy is sat in his room wanking furiously and trying at every opportunity to get laid. Why do so many people find it impossible to imagine that there are girls of this same age who are doing the same? Does it all come down to the Myth that women don't have as high a sex drive as men? that nice girls don't really want sex but rather that sex is a response to loving encounters in their case?That all nice girls need to be coerced and wooed into sex? do only sluts like sex? slut what kind of word is that, its a hate word used to beat women into submitting to the roles our repressive culture gives them. Sansa is almost universally seen as a Good Girl, so is this why so many have a mental block when it comes to her sexuality?

So I have hopefully given people some things to contemplate. I am not at any point implying that there is not something completely repulsive and wrong about LF's sexual advances and grooming that he is doing, that is not what I am referring to. I have as much of a problem with all that as the next person. I think it was Wedding Guest who wrote some really good paragraphs on the way abusers utilise authority positions to manipulate their victims into sexual activity. I hope that Sansa will not fall into his traps. I have faith that GRRM isn't writing that for her though. It seems to me that Sansa's story arc is all about her developing and desiring agency. To have that happen would squash the really great work he has put into her story which subtly de-constructs the damsel in distress trope and the idea of a woman as a prize without her own sexual agency, to merely be awarded to the hero, or taken by the villain.

[Karmarni]

I don't think Sansa will receive seduction training from Littlefinger. Aside from what he's trying to do already that is. She's trying to accept that she's a bastard now.

She would need to be brave down below, where the chance of being unmasked was so much greater. Petyr’s friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. It will mean my head if I am found, she reminded herself as she descended a flight of icy stone steps. I must be Alayne all the time, inside and out.

She needs to be bastard brave.

But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

She's got a pillow tax she needs to pay at some point.

Usually when ladies share my bed they have to pay a pillow tax and tell me all about the wicked things they’ve done.”
“What if they haven’t done any wicked things?”
“Why, then they must confess all the wicked things they want to do.

She's making the effort to sound more knowledgeable about sex than she is.

You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?”
She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.

I think she's going to learn ways of seduction all on her own. She's not a dumb girl, nor one who's going to act like a highborn priss anymore. She's Alayne, the older woman. Bastard brave and about to confess her wicked thoughts. Her wicked thoughts seem to be along the lines of:

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

Sansa's done. But she still remembers this kiss and how it felt. "How he'd kissed her" = "She could still remember how it felt". So Sansa's wicked thoughts (of the sexually variety) center around this kiss.

Paying her pillow tax with her wicked sexy thoughts may allow Myranda to give Alayne some further sex stories of her own, thereby providing the additional training the OP asks about. Not training from Littlefinger.

More interesting to me is whether she'd even want to win Harry's heart:

You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart... which should not be hard, for you.”
“Harry the Heir?” Alayne tried to recall what Myranda had told her about him on the mountain. “He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl.”
“And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told.”

A recently knighted, dimply boy who's very gallant? Sounds like what girlish GoT Sansa wanted, but not bastard brave Alayne.

the Hound hated knights... I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

[Karmarni]

TWE - thank you - we posted at the same time. This:

Does it all come down to the Myth that women don't have as high a sex drive as men? that nice girls don't really want sex but rather that sex is a response to loving encounters in their case?That all nice girls need to be coerced and wooed into sex? do only sluts like sex? slut what kind of word is that, its a hate word used to beat women into submitting to the roles our repressive culture gives them. Sansa is almost universally seen as a Good Girl, so is this why so many have a mental block when it comes to her sexuality?

Agree completely (for both our world and the fantasy world of GRRM). Sansa has her moments of breakthrough 'bad girl' that come through. Some highly controversial on other threads - not discussing those here, nor even entering into the whole 'age' debate - it's a story, the ages have gotten bashed around on a thousand plus threads already, why can't we set them aside?

And even 'good girl / bad girl'; Madonna / Whore - it's all not easily black or white. We all learn and experience our sexuality, whenever it comes. But here, we're talking about Sansa. And I too think that her learning is coming. That she will have the opportunity to decide what she wants. That sex is going to be in the cards in TWoW. So many references, subtle and not, to Sansa and the 'mother.' She's growing up, get used to it. This is the bildungsroman of Sansa.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you. Its a subject close to my heart.

[Le Cygne]

The Weirwoods Eyes and Karmarni, love your posts.

[mambru]

About the OP, why are people talking about sex? If LF things Sansa needs to learn a thing or two to seduce Harry, those things won't be about sex not only because LF wants Sansa for himself but, maybe more importantly, the moment Sansa has sex with Harry before marriage is the moment the marriage proposal falls.

Probably because the primary definition of seduction is the the act of persuading someone to have sex with you. If you use the secondary definition - the act of attracting or charming someone - you have to start enquiring whether LF actually HAS that skill himself in order to teach anyone else.

BTW, as mambru mentioned Lysa, While many fans discussing LF and Sansa think Sansa is "Cat 2.0" to him, I actually think that much of LF's behavior toward Sansa is based on what worked for him earlier with Lysa. Lysa actually seems impressed by LF's "cleverness" when he tells her to kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters for it, and I think LF spent a lot of time bragging about his schemes to Lysa as well, knowing she was too besotted with him to oppose anything (except, perhaps, anything that would jeopardize SR's welfare, it seems LF sold his plans to Lysa as either (1) What we need to do so we can finally be together and (2) What we need to do to keep SR safe.) Now, I don't think LF plans to discard Sansa as he did Lysa, but for all we know, if LF never met Sansa, he'd have kept Lysa around as "Cat 2.0".

The thing with LF giving Sansa 'seduction training' - not merely as a way to get Harry into bed (too easy, and fatal to the 'marriage' plan) but as a way to win his emotional attachment - his love - is that LF is actually kind of deluded about his own skill at winning love. He has always tended to overestimate himself there. I mean, apparently throughout his life he was convinced that he won enough of Catelyn's affection to get her to give him her maidenhood. This victory meant so much to him that he bragged about it before the court at the risk of offending the Lord Paramount whose wife he was bragging of, even though he'd never actually won her love at all (maybe because he was the kind of guy who would brag about deflowering her afterwards). He killed Lysa when she threw it in his face that he'd never won Catalyn's love (and hell, for all we know maybe he's STILL deluding himself that Lysa was lying and he was Catalyn's first).

And IMO, he's deluding himself now that by getting at Sansa young and "training" her to think his way, by making her a wanted criminal throughout the land so that her only safe place is at his side, by making her an unwilling accomplice in his crimes, by threatening to kill innocent people unless she obeys him in every detail, by taking a paternal role in her life that he then proceeds to violate with incestuous creepiness - he can somehow control her enough to FORCE her love for him. And IMO, we can see clearly that it's not really working. Sansa still has the true insight that "Littlefinger is no friend of hers," and she keeps hold of that insight as she goes through the necessary charades with "Petyr."

In other words, I don't think we'll see any "seduction training" from LF in the art of winning Harry's love - because we've ALREADY SEEN LF's attempts to "win" Sansa's "love", and they're not working. He can't teach a skill he doesn't know.

[MyLittleFinger]

Sansa's future power or LF's power comes from Harry the lord paramount of the vale. And sansa will have to win him heart and soul as dany did with drogo.

Harry is pretty much a blonde robert who is no stranger to sex and women. Winning his heart will be hard and controlling him even harder.

So will baelish give some special training?

He after all trained a hundred whores and has many expert madames in his employee. LF also remarks that sansa will have to impress harry

Harold is not a blonde Robert, seriously, all we know about him is that a well known rumour monger says he might have fathered a bastard. Sounds more like fat ass Myranda Royce is jealous of the handsome newly made knight who also happens to be one of the most intriguing bachelors in the Vale...Seriously everybody takes Myranda's word as fact, yet everything she says is exaggerated bollocks.

LF is going to do nothing of the sort, Sansa is by all reports one of the most beautiful young ladies out there, she is schooled in courtesy and has an air of innocence about her, all she needs to do is be Sansa and she'll get him.

[mambru]

Harold is not a blonde Robert, seriously, all we know about him is that a well known rumour monger says he might have fathered a bastard. Sounds more like fat ass Myranda Royce is jealous of the handsome newly made knight who also happens to be one of the most intriguing bachelors in the Vale...Seriously everybody takes Myranda's word as fact, yet everything she says is exaggerated bollocks.

Two bastards, dear, by Littlefinger's own reckoning. Don't malign Myranda for telling the truth - apparently Harry is even MORE like a blond Robert than she knew.

[MyLittleFinger]

Two bastards, dear, by Littlefinger's own reckoning. Don't malign Myranda for telling the truth - apparently she didn't tell HALF the story about how like a blonde Robert Harry is.

True enough :leaving:

[SpringKing]

When SR dies, Lord Harry is freed from Lady Waynwood's betrothal arrangement with LF. Is the newly minted Lord of the Vale going jump at the chance to marry the bastard daughter of the deposed and despised Littlefinger? Of course LF's intent is that Harry marry Sansa Stark, but finessing her existing marriage, and the taint of two regicides (Joff & SR), will be difficult even for LF to manage.

LF's suckface seduction training is aimed only at one thing - wedding and bedding Sansa himself, after husband Harry meets an unfortunate and untimely end.

[WeddinGuest]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't get the sudden angry rants against fellow posters being prudes who are shocked and scandalized by the idea of 13 year olds having sex.

It seems quite readily accepted that a 12-15 yr old boy is sat in his room wanking furiously and trying at every opportunity to get laid. Why do so many people find it impossible to imagine that there are girls of this same age who are doing the same?

I can't think of any 12-15 year old major BOY character in ASOIAF depicted this way either. Jon certainly isn't, we don't know details re Robb but he actually seems scandalized when Theon starts describing his sexual exploits, I doubt that if Bran survives to 12-15 he would (his injury is assumed to have left him incapable of sex but that's not certain). Likely Theon was like that at that age, but Tyrion, for example, didn't just fuck Tysha at age 13, he actually loved her and married her. There's also a big difference between "wanking" and "trying to get laid", unless you're talking about the kind of person who sees sexual partners merely as sex objects to be used to gain sexual pleasure from, and is essentially just masturbating in all sexual encounters.

Personally, I find that approach to sex really shallow and not very fulfilling in the end, for either gender. I never understood this idea that "women using men as sex objects is a sign of triumphant feminism and gender equality", I think that's just as problematic as men using women as sex objects. I also think the line between consensual casual sex and sexual exploitation is much blurrier than many assume. Call me a prude for that if you want, but to be clear, I'm not applying this to just women, I'm applying it to both genders.

I think it is possible to be disgusted at the idea of LF manipulating a passive Sansa into sex, without being a prude who never wants Sansa to experience sex at all, or who thinks there are no 13 year olds who have sexual thoughts and feelings or act on them. Tyrion at age 13 was capable of consensual sex, but that doesn't mean what Tywin did to him was not sexual abuse. There also is no arbitrary age at which someone becomes too old to be a victim of sexual abuse. There are cases of trusted authority figures such as college professors, work supervisors, doctors, prison guards, etc., using their power to coerce other adults into sex. I just don't see how LF/Sansa could ever be a situation of equal consensual sex. Being disgusted by that is NOT the same as being disgusted by teenage sex in general.

[Lee-Sensei]

Having a bastard or two doesn't make him Robert. Man Lords have bastards.

[Le Cygne]

Sansa doesn't need any "training" from Littlefinger to know these things, this comes from within.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

snip.

Well it was a direct response to the "angry rants" about anyone NOT being shocked & scandalised by the idea of 13 year olds having sex. When people use language which implies anyone who is not of their mind is a perverse abuse supporter it will eventually get up their noses.

OK, so In case its not obvious we all hit puberty at varying ages. It stands to reason that those who hit it earlier will be ready for sex sooner. So a girl who begins puberty at age 9 and gets her first period at 12 will likely want to have sex by about 13. But one who doesn't begin puberty until 13 and gets her period at 16 will not be actively wanting sex until about 17. The same goes for boys too. Hence the wide age range in my example of 12-15 year olds an example which was not about in book characters but rather real life teens. I felt that was clear, obviously not so I shall state that now.

In real life the general public are usually very accepting and understanding of the fact that 12-15 year olds boys masturbate and have sexual desire and yearn to have sex. But there is a disparity in that that same demographic struggle to accept that teenage girls also masturbate and have sexual desire and yearn to have sex.

We have these things called Hormones, you might have heard of them. They drive sexual maturation and along with that desire. This is why the vast majority of the human race masturbate, doing so is totally normal and healthy and does not indicate that the person doing so is an unfeeling selfish twat who if given the opportunity for sex would just be wanking with another person present.

As for The boys in series, well Robb we get no POV so your interpretation of him being Scandalised by Theons sexual behaviour does not have any baring on whether or not he may have laid in bed at night and touched himself when he thought his brothers were sleeping, or if he stood in the courtyard and watched the ladies as they went about their business and fantasised about going into the godswood with one of them and making love. One can have sexual desire whilst still disapproving of others behaviour which is unfeeling and shallow. Jon is actively suppressing his sexuality in book right up to the point where he caves in to it. What he is doing is not normal or healthy at all but a symptom of the crushing effect of his bastardy in a society which operates in a very defined and limiting fashion in which he does not fit a respected or valued role due to said Bastardy. we know that once Jon does begin to loosen up and allow himself to act upon his urges he LOVES sex and wallows in it screwing as much as he can fit in in his day. Ygritte & Jon have sex over and over again, they explore their sexuality together in a way which is so joyful. The fact that he falls in love with her is a secondary thing when he first has sex with her he fancies her but its not Love. relationships which begin with sex begin with desire and love grows. Relationships which grow first and later become love which leads to sex are wonderful too but usually come later in life, once we've matured and our hormones don't drive us in quite the same way. Why on earth you would make the assumption that Bran won't be a normal teenager is beyond me, he already is expressing a love for Meera, this is not yet accompanied by desire, because he is 10, and not yet in Puberty. its quite likely his "love" is that childish kind of love when you are beginning to be aware of sex but don't have any real desire that would drive you to explore it beyond liking the way a person looks, and their personality. Kind of how my 8 year old comes home and tells me he has a girlfriend and kisses her chastely on the cheek when she has to go home for her dinner. Once Bran does hit puberty its likely he will begin to actually want to touch a girl, kiss her passionately and if he can't have sex due to his injury he's going to be a frustrated man. being paralysed won't stop him being effected by hormones. Tyrion, well he was 13, he had sex with Tysha and then married her and they had lots and lots and lots of sex. Hmmm seems very similar to Robb & Jeyne,& Jon & Ygritte, sex first(desire) then love grows from that..

I never claimed that Wanking and trying to get laid are one & the same, but stated that these are things we are generally as a society happy to accept that teenage boys do.

"Personally, I find that approach to sex really shallow and not very fulfilling in the end, for either gender. I never understood this idea that "women using men as sex objects is a sign of triumphant feminism and gender equality", I think that's just as problematic as men using women as sex objects. I also think the line between consensual casual sex and sexual exploitation is much blurrier than many assume. Call me a prude for that if you want, but to be clear, I'm not applying this to just women, I'm applying it to both genders."

Well that's good to know, thank you so much for your view point on something I never even suggested let alone stated.

But seeing as you felt it pertinent to give your view, I shall give mine too.

Yes the approach to sex as being described is a bit unsavoury, usually carried out by unpleasant people. it would seem you have done it though as you go on to tell us that you personally find it shallow & unfulfilling, also it seems you have had the experience of being both genders? as you feel that it is shallow & unfullfilling for both genders indicating personal knowledge and experience. Thank you for your informed opinion on that. I have never had sex like that so I don't have the perspective that you offer. I have had lots of one night stands in my life, well I say in my life what I really mean is in the period of time between age 13 when I started having sex and age 17 when I entered the relationship which went on to be my marriage and which I have happily resided in for coming up 16 years. So yes I've had quite a few one night stands and my experience was that they generally were very exciting and mutually gratifying,occasionally a disappointment and sometimes regretful but they have gone on to enable me to form a good understanding of my own sexuality and what I want in a partner.

As for women using men as sex objects being celebrated as a triumphant sign of feminism and equality, well I have never personally heard a single feminist say that ever, and as a feminist I feel I am qualified to say this is not an attitude which is broadly held by the feminist community. Sexual objectification is a thing which I abhor and strive to challenge every day.

I can't think of a way to politely say this so here goes, WHO the hell do you think you are stating that you understand better if a person consents to sex than they do themselves!! If as you say the lines are more blurred than many assume, you're saying that you see this scenario where a person may think they are consensually having sex, but in fact that person is being exploited and abused based on the sex in question being deemed casual sex by yourself,who made you in charge of consent? at what point in life did you deem yourself the sole person capable of judging the merit of any given sexual encounter a person may have?

I'm not as you seem so desperate for me to do going to call you a prude, but I am going to call you judgemental.

On your last paragraph, I too think its possible for one to be disgusted by the thought of LF manipulating a passive Sansa into having sex with him.without never wanting sansa to have sex. I agree with your entire last paragraph in fact. Glad we agree on that. It is nice when there is some common ground. I am happy with the idea of Sansa exploring her own sexuality, I am happy with the idea of her having consensual mutually gratifying sex with a person of her choosing whenever she feels ready. That does not make me OK with sexual exploitation and abuse. Though I would have thought all that was obvious. It seems though far too often that if one expresses their comfort with young adolescent sexuality there are those on this board who like to make out that = sex abuse. That a 13 year old girl is incapable of having consensual sex at all and that its freakish and abnormal for a girl of that age to have any sexual urges.

[WeddinGuest]

Weirwood's Eyes, I think that you are so angry you're not expressing yourself well. Anyway, your idea of when RL teens are ready to have sex seem very simplistic. To me there is a BIG difference between "person who is old enough to masturbate" (that would be many PRE-pubescent children, including some babies, are they ready to have sex?) AND "person old enough to have sexual urges and fantasies" AND "person old enough to have sex".

It stands to reason that those who hit it earlier will be ready for sex sooner. So a girl who begins puberty at age 9 and gets her first period at 12 will likely want to have sex by about 13. But one who doesn't begin puberty until 13 and gets her period at 16 will not be actively wanting sex until about 17.

It is not just about puberty and hormones, perhaps you starting to have sex at age 13 biases you, but most women I know had their period at age 11-12 and were indeed having sexual urges and fantasies at age 13, but they were NOT actually having sex at age 13. Also, in some ethnic groups it is normal for girls to get their first periods as early as 8 or 9, they may have sexual urges too, I guess this means they "likely want to have sex by about age 10" and are also READY to have sex by then, too.

Or how about girls who have precocious puberty and have their first periods even younger, and hence are technically "sexually mature" at age 8, yet I doubt you'd say such a girl is ready to have sex? Elsewhere in your post you refer to push-up bras for 8 year olds as inappropriate and that the 8 year old Bran's crush on Meera was chaste. But would you say "Well, if the 8 year old IS sexually mature and finds another sexually mature 8 year old to have sex with, that's fine with me?" Because following your logic above it would be. Or are issues of emotional, intellectual, and psychological development just as important as physical sexual development when determining if someone is ready to have sex?

One can have sexual desire whilst still disapproving of others behaviour which is unfeeling and shallow.

No, it means that one realizes there is a BIG difference between having sexual desires and actually acting on them. But you seem to think that unless someone ALWAYS acts on one's sexual desires, they are unhealthily suppressing them. I assume you then either (1) have no sexual desires for anyone except your husband now, or (2) have a sexually liberated "open" marriage in which you both understand that it's unhealthy to suppress your sexual desires for others. (Unless you think this only applies to teens's sexual desires, that an adult can decide not to act on such desires and that's ok, but that all teens with sexual desires SHOULD be having sex in order to be "healthy", and those who choose not to have sex are suppressing those desires and being "unhealthy".

Again, following your logic, if a 9 year old girl who had her period at age 8, is found masturbating by her parents and expressing sexual desires, they should be actively seeking sexual partners for that girl to ensure that she develops a healthy sexuality. Hopefully you'll pay for their legal fees when they get arrested for child abuse.

As for both Robb and Jon having sex before love, I'll give you Jon as we get his internal monologue, but I won't give you Robb because we just don't know. You seem to think it's impossible to fall in love BEFORE having sex where teens are concerned, but I totally disagree, there are still many "traditional" people who don't have sex before marriage, don't even kiss, and most of them marry very young, even as teenagers, but that doesn't mean they don't already love that person. But according to you, all teenagers are too driven by "hormones" to be capable of such a thing.

I also assume you think Jon made the wrong decision in leaving Ygritte and re-embracing a life of celibacy, wrong for not taking Stannis's offer to marry Val, wrong for not joining his comrades on their escapades in Moletown.

As for people who are sexually exploited not realizing that; how about MK Letourneau's lover? The one who eventually married her? Lancel? Even Sansa herself WRT what Tyrion did? And some would argue that Dany was indeed sexually abused by Drogo early in their marriage, others will say "no she wasn't because she never used the word "rape" or "abuse". How about Cersei and Robert? The idea that "the victim has to consciously decide what happened was rape or abuse" is used even on this forum to dismiss claims that certain characters were abused.

All of this doesn't mean I don't think there are 12-13 year olds who are not just physically sexually mature, but also are intellectually, psychologically, and emotionally mature enough to be sexually active. You seem to have been one of them. But I didn't find any of the comments about 13 year old Sansa on this topic to be inappropriate. I also understand why the comments focused on girls, because SANSA IS A GIRL! It doesn't mean anyone was thinking "of course, if Sansa was a boy and LF was a woman, I'd have no problem at all with them having sex."

ETA: In a nutshell, while I don't agree with slut-shaming, I don't agree with the idea of shaming people who DON'T act on every single sexual desire as "suppressed" or "prudes", and I think erring on the side of caution when it comes to 13 year olds having sex is appropriate because the harms of having sex before being ready are MUCH more than the harms of suppressing one's sexuality.

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Agreed.

Perhaps to sum things up:

The author provided a context for sexuality (sexual maturity = adult). There are multiple storylines where teens had sex and:

1) there was not love or marriage at first, and sometimes never

2) the teenagers clearly expressed desire for their sexual partner

3) the teenagers chose to have sex with their sexual partner

4) the teenagers thought it normal to have sex as teenagers

5) the teenagers thought it normal to have sex with someone not a teenager

6) the teenagers did not regret having sex

This has nothing to do with non-consensual storylines.

[SpringKing]

The author provided a context for sexuality (sexual maturity = adult). There are multiple storylines where teens had sex and:

And a notable storyline where pre-teens experimented with sexuality:

"How young they all had been-she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. He had been such a bold little boy, always in trouble. “He tried to put his tongue in my mouth,” Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. “He did with me too,” Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. “I liked it.”

[ARYa_Nym]

And a notable storyline where pre-teens experimented with sexuality:

"How young they all had been-she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. He had been such a bold little boy, always in trouble. “He tried to put his tongue in my mouth,” Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. “He did with me too,” Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. “I liked it.”

Is this fanfic or from the books? If it's cannon then that proves my theory that Cat was not disinterested like Arya is when she was her age.

She showed interest in Brandon who she was engaged to at 12 and she said she used to pretend to be Jenny and Duncan with LF. She spoke positively about sex with Ned and wanted to give him another child.

Now if they were kissing then that is sexual interest at a young age.

ETA: Nevermind I searched mint in my kindle and this quote is from AGoT. I always said that children can be sexual. I don't mean want to have sex but they can kiss, want to hug/touch, hold hands, or just be near each other. They are capable of this.