will LF give sansa some sort of seduction training?

[Northernmonkey]

Well, not even horny. Sansa had a crush on Waymar Royce which I'm guessing is before AGoT so she would have been younger. Jeyne Poole seemed to like Theon. Bran likes Meera and is younger. Lysa was already kissing and Cat said she was younger than Arya was in AGoT. I don't think it's age and I think it could have already been in her POV from AGoT but it wasn't there to begin with. She's not running anymore in Braavos. That's what I was saying about the relatively stable environment. She has grief but so does Bran and Sansa and they have crushes.

There's not a rule that every character has to have a crush. It just wouldn't fit in with Arya's storyline. I guess she could have had one in AGOT but she was clearly meant to be the complete opposite of Sansa so it makes sense that she didn't.

To be honest I doubt that GRRM has given Arya's sexuality a lot of thought. Her storyline isn't about romance in any way, so why bother putting in a crush just for the sake of it?

[ARYa_Nym]

There's not a rule that every character has to have a crush. It just wouldn't fit in with Arya's storyline. I guess she could have had one in AGOT but she was clearly meant to be the complete opposite of Sansa so it makes sense that she didn't.

To be honest I doubt that GRRM has given Arya's sexuality a lot of thought. Her storyline isn't about romance in any way, so why bother putting in a crush just for the sake of it?

But again romance does not have to equal sex. That's what I believe was mentioned earlier in response to Sansa. She can have sex and it not be about love although I doubt it given Sansa's characterization.

I'm not saying that he has to put it there but so far it has not been there. There's evidence for Cat, Lysa, Sansa, Arianne, Jeyne Poole, Bran and Myrcella have more evidence, SR, etc. SR doesn't have to be a romantic character for example to have desire for Sansa.

ETA: Unrelated but another example of a couple that showed interest young are Jamie and Cersei. They are dysfunctional and unnatural though. I think GRRM can depict young sexuality but it depends. I doubt Sansa is going to be like Dany though.

[WeddinGuest]

But again romance does not have to equal sex. That's what I believe was mentioned earlier in response to Sansa. She can have sex and it not be about love although I doubt it given Sansa's characterization.

I'm not saying that he has to put it there but so far it has not been there. There's evidence for Cat, Lysa, Sansa, Arianne, Jeyne Poole, Bran and Myrcella have more evidence, SR, etc. SR doesn't have to be a romantic character for example to have desire for Sansa.

I'm pretty agnostic on "is Arya asexual or just not sexually awakened yet", but I will say that I don't think SR "desires" Sansa in a sexual way. At least, not if you're using his grabbing her breasts as a sexual thing. Otherwise, you'd have to accuse Lysa of sexual abuse for breastfeeding him as long as he did, and that would be quite insulting to MANY advocates of long-term breastfeeding. (I'm actually surprised that no one has accused GRRM so far for propagating misleading stereotypes against long-term breastfeeding by casting Lysa in such a pathetic light!)

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm pretty agnostic on "is Arya asexual or just not sexually awakened yet", but I will say that I don't think SR "desires" Sansa in a sexual way. At least, not if you're using his grabbing her breasts as a sexual thing. Otherwise, you'd have to accuse Lysa of sexual abuse for breastfeeding him as long as he did, and that would be quite insulting to MANY advocates of long-term breastfeeding. (I'm actually surprised that no one has accused GRRM so far for propagating misleading stereotypes against long-term breastfeeding by casting Lysa in such a pathetic light!)

I was referring to this:

"We'll sleep and kiss and play games, and you can read me about the Winged Knight."

"Sweetrobin threw his skinny arms around her and kissed her. It was a little boy's kiss, and clumsy...As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss...."

SR likes to receive kisses from Sansa.

ETA: & by desire I mean in an innocent, childlike way. I don't expect him to desire her in the way that an adult does. This is just a precursor imo to adult feelings.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well, Wedding guest, Good morning.

In case it escaped your attention I was very much taking the piss out of you when saying you are calling me or anyone else a Paedophile apologist. I unsurprisingly know what a paedophile is and continuing any discussion about them is pointless. And not at all relevant to discussion about Sansa, as she is indeed not a child.

I have already pointed out the massive flaws in your argument regarding precocious puberty and the cognitive abillity for a child in precocious puberty to cope with sex. Mainly that I was very clearly not referring to such cases but to NORMAL pubescent teens. By continually attempting to infer that I have some black & white thinking which means I think its normal for a 9 year old to want to have sex if they have experienced Precocious puberty you look like an idiot.

BTW, I also know people from "sexually repressive" cultures and while it's possible they're all lying to me, not all such cultures also teach people that sex is dirty and that sexual urges should be suppressed. Many actually find MORE freedom in knowing they can actually develop romantic relationships without worrying about whether they should have the socially expected sex on the 3rd or 4th date, or whether to worry about getting pregnant or getting an STD(even if they use birth control nothing is 100%), or worrying whether their prospective partners actually love them for being PEOPLE, not just as sexual partners. There are even people who *gasp* choose to go into arranged marriages, valuing a stable relationship with someone who shares their religious and cultural values over sexual attraction and love, and are actually faithful to their partners, although of course this means they must suppress sexual desires for others, again by their own CHOICE.

You are yet again taking my generalisations and clear acknowledgement that there are no absolutes and attempting to make out I am being extremist. I said that while there are some who will be genuinely happy with their cultures requirements there are many who will not be,I won't repeat myself as it seems you are determined to make your own interpretations of my words, interpretations which are NOT there. Here's another one.

I never even mentioned any one teaching that sex it self is dirty, you've made yet another massive leap with that. I talked about instilling feelings of guilt and shame in people for their very normal natural urges. Through teaching that the act of sex and as you mentioned sometimes even kissing, outside of marriage is not acceptable to those around them, which results in feelings of guilt and shame for being unable to control those urges and feelings and thoughts.

No one has said anything about the act of sex its self being dirty. But you have decided this is what I was saying. Can you see how by continually placing words in my mouth you expose your argument as weak and constructed of assumptions you are making about others.

Now the religion I was raised in very much taught that sex was a healthy part of a marriage but that you must not indulge in sex before marriage or kissing or even holding hands for that matter. To do so was letting yourself down, we were told a lot of stuff about keeping our sacred bodies pure for our future spouse. It didn't stop all but one of the members of my young womens and the corresponding young mens group loosing their virginity by the time I had left the church at 14. Note these groups of teens encompass those members between ages 12 -17. So I'n not saying that we all started having sex at the same age, But that in the group of about 30 odd teenagers at my own small branch, all but one had had sex to my knowledge before age 17. I am basing my generalisation about the age range which most teenagers become sexually active on my own life experiences. I know from church camp and stake conference that the majority of teens in other wards were doing the same stuff too, and of course outside of the church I went to school and experienced the way my peers there also explored their sexuality. I know that what I was doing and what they were doing was and continues to be Normal sexual awakening and that as a general rule it coincides with the peak of puberty. Thankfully I was self aware enough to realise that I am not defined by the state of my virginity on my wedding night, and that the number of partners I have had has no bearing on my value as a human being.

I did certainly get the impression you were implying all casual sex is exploitative. I apologise if that was not your intended meaning. continued in my next post.

[Forfax]

I believe LF will take Sansa virginity, or attempt to atleast, it's just too tempting for him.

[Baelor Swyft]

I don't think Harry will need seducing.

As for Littlefinger, foul play may well be up his alley, but it also might give Sansa the Unbedded cause to slit his throat.

[ARYa_Nym]

Asha is another example. First there was kissing with some other boy. Then there was fondling with Tris.

"Tris had been closest to Asha in age. He had not been the first boy she had ever kissed, but he was the first to undo the laces of her jerkin and slip a sweaty hand beneath to feel her budding breasts. I would let him feel more than that if he’d been bold enough. Her first flowering had come upon her during the war and wakened her desire, but even before that Asha had been curious. He was there, he was mine own age, and he was willing, that was all it was…that, and the moon blood. Even so, she’d called it love, till Tris began to go on about the children bear him."

^She had been curious pre flowering.

But she didn't have sex until sixteen.

"She had surrendered her virtue at six-and-ten, to a beautiful blond-haired sailor on a trading galley up from Lys. He only knew six words of the Common Tongue, but “fuck” was one of them—the very word she’d hoped to hear. Afterward, Asha had the sense to find a woods witch, who showed her how to brew moon tea to keep her belly flat."

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I believe LF will take Sansa virginity, or attempt to atleast, it's just too tempting for him.

What in the heck gives you this idea?

[Lord Reaver]

What in the heck gives you this idea?

Petyr's incredibly creepy attempts at seducing her ? I dunno...

I think he'll try to. I very much doubt he'll succeed.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Petyr's incredibly creepy attempts at seducing her ? I dunno...

I think he'll try to. I very much doubt he'll succeed.

He is trying to annul her marriage with Tyrion. It isn't very practical of him to claim her virginity.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Of course I didn't mean ALL casual sex anymore than you meant ALL girls who are one year past their first period are ready to have sex. But you know that, right?

So you acknowledge that you were trolling me with your insistence to misinterpret my posts and infer rather inflammatory but clearly wrong meanings? thanks.

I genuinely thought you were saying ALL casual sex is exploitative on some level and that people are not fully able to consent because they are too dim to see what you see, ie that they are in fact being exploited. But at least you acknowledge that you were deliberately misrepresenting my posts.

Though right after you acknowledge your trolling, you go on to continue to try to twist my words. You're too funny.

you continue to make baseless assumptions about what I think, you continue to ignore completely the inclusion of words such as

almost always, generally, and usually, which infer the broad generalisation of my posts and pretend that I have made absolute all inclusive statements.

Back to the actual story:

Again, this reduction of teenage romance to "lots and lots of sex" actually strikes me as very close to how Tywin dismisses Tysha's significance to Tyrion by calling her "your first whore", or how Alliser Thorne calls Ygritte an "unwashed whore", or even how Sybelle Spicer gets Jeyne to be alone with Robb as much as possible to "let nature take its course", certainly assuming her daughter was mature enough to have sex, but when she actually dares to proclaim her LOVE for Robb, calls her a "willful child" and beats her.

Well mentioning that most teenage, and indeed adult relationships have lots & lots of sex at their conception is hardly reducing them to being solely about sex. I mean it is pretty much universally acknowledged that people have more sex in the early stages of any relationship. Its not derogatory to point that out. And it certainly is NOT at all similar to calling your sons wife a Whore after you had her gang raped. or calling the significant other of a work mate an "unwashed whore", because she is from a different cultural background to yourself, Its absolutely nothing at all like pushing your daughter to have sex with a man and then beating her when she falls in love with him either. Do you even think out the implications of what you write before hitting post? Calling women Whores is about devalluing them because they have had sex. If Tyrion and Tysha had not had sex and got wed in secret, but had gone to Tywin saying we're in love and would like to marry Tywin would not have called her a whore nor had her raped, he would have simply laughed and said not a chance she is a commoner. And sent her packing. The act of sex is being used against Tysha & Tyrion by Tywin, he is devaluing her based on the fact she has had sex, a slur which is born out of the same repressive culture which spawns the attitude of the church I attended in my childhood as well as many others. A woman looses value once she has had sex, and having sex outside of a marriage makes you sullied and spoiled and is disrespectful to yourself and your future spouse. He wants to devalue the relationship with Tyrion so he can destroy it. He doesn't just have it annulled and speak no more of it. he chooses to take her lack of virginity (even though it is gone because she is his sons wife!) and run with it, making her a victim of gang rape, he makes the men pay her so that he can destroy his sons heart, that this girl loved him for himself. Tywin can not stand that Tyrion went over his head and married a commoner. its an assault on his paternal authority. His calling her a whore after having tried to construct the idea in his sons head that that is what she was is not at all like me stating the obvious that people in the early stages of a relationship, especially teenagers who are riddled with raging hormones have a lot of sex. Nor is Alliser Thorne calling Ygritte an unwashed whore anything like that. He calls her unwashed an insult in itself because she is a wildling, she belongs to a different culture than he and Jon, a culture which he looks down upon and a whore which is of course a popular slur against all women. Any woman is at risk of being named Whore, sometimes women who have not had sex, or who are monogamously involved with one person are called whores. She and Jon had sex, they are not married in the light of the seven and worse she is a wildling, ergo Alliser Thorne see's her & Jon having sex as morally abhorrent and calls her a derogatory name in order to try to shame Jon for he had sex with a woman whom Alliser is implying has sex with lots of men, the idea being that Jon ought to only want sex with a woman who has saved herself for him, because as a man he ought to want to be the only person his wife has had sex with. Or at the least that he ought to see women who have sex outside of wedlock in the same light as Alliser himself does, ie unworthy of respect and love due to them having sex outside of a marriage only good for casual sex without any respect for the woman, merely a paid whore, not a good decent woman ( because there is as you seem to hold this idea that casual sex is unsavoury).

I shan't even address your attempt to insinuate I am akin to Lady westerling in her beating of Jeyne for falling in love with Robb, as there is just zero base for that at all.

So your now saying you wouldn't be shocked and scandalised by Sansa having sex? even though the entire basis of your participation in this debate was that the idea of a 13 year old having sex is scandalous and shocking? I am so glad that you have listened to my argument and grown from it. :)

I too would feel it was OOC for her to have sex outside of some semblance of a loving relationship. I have said that on many occasions, what I am saying is that Sansa is becoming more sexually aware and that is normal for a girl of her age, so quit saying its unrealistic and impossible for a 13 year old girl to have sexual feelings.

I too seriously doubt Sansa will ever use her sexuality as a weapon, she is not Cersei. She may allow LF to believe he has some chance in order to make him have a false sense of security about her, but she wouldn't actually do anything that she does not want to in order to play him. She doesn't need to he is besotted with her without her even giving a hint that she might one day reciprocate.

ETA: I pondered whether to include this but just so everyone knows where I'm coming from: I believe I was inappropriately sexualized at a young age by an authority figure. It did not involve actual intercourse and I didn't see it as abusive at the time. I also acted out sexually with peers, though no intercourse was involved. No one ever questioned my behavior and thought it a warning flag for abuse, but attributed it to normal teenage hormones. It wasn't.

Once I realized what had happened was wrong, I actually did become very sex-averse, even hyper-religious like Lancel, and while I've recovered from that to some extent, I think I'll be scarred by what happened for the rest of my life. So there's where my concern comes from. Of course it makes me biased, as does the experiences of Weirwood's Eyes, as does everyone's experiences. So be it.

I can totally understand why with this experience you feel the way you do, Its a very common reaction to abuse. I am sorry that you underwent that and struggled so much with the after effects.

But I'd like to tell you that I too was abused and shamed by authority figures in my youth, at 9 while during a church event I was shamed by an adult male member as I had removed my top and was walking in just a vest and shorts, it was a sweltering hot day and we were undertaking a massive walk to represent the pilgrimage, The other kids had all done the same. I though had breasts they were there as a part of my body, having breasts beginning to grow is not shameful, but this man reprimanded me, yelled at me forced me to put back on my top and made me cry, I had no idea why he was being so unkind towards me. He kept telling me I was disrespecting myself and would cause the men to sin. I felt great shame and embarrassment about my breasts for years. It was born out of the way I was told that I was responsible for the thoughts and feelings of others, that if any of the men around me became aroused at my pubescent breasts that it would be MY fault! And that I was responsible for their thoughts. That was an abuse of his authority over me as a man, and a priesthood holder.

When I was 13 a neighbours partner, he was in his 20's followed me in town to a public toilet and when I went into relieve myself he shoved me into a cubicle, barred my exit and proceeded to undress me and grope me as tears ran down my face. And I muttered No over and over as he tried to kiss me.That was abusive.

To make it worse my neighbour barged round to my house and screamed and yelled in my face for "going with" her man, she called me a slag, and a whore. She accused me of flaunting myself in front of him, I had worn that day a lilac turtle neck and off black dungarees. Not that what I wore is relevant but just to highlight the level of delusional blame people blame on women for what is done to them and the inability to hold the man accountable for what he did. She did this in front of my parents, though she knew that my father was a violent man who would likely beat me after she left. He did. He also called me a whore and told me that no man wants to marry a woman with a bucket for a fanny.

When I was 16 and had left my parents house and the church I took a job in a pub, it was in a village some 10 miles from my home and I would often stay over in one of the guest rooms if my shift waitressing was a late one or I was on breakfast duty the next day.

During this summer the owner would often make suggestive remarks towards me, he would come up to my room and sit there saying he liked to chat to me, one night he offered me £1000 to have sex with him, his wife was in prison and he was lonely, when I refused he continued to press it, saying if I would just give him a photo of me wearing my school uniform. etc. Anyway one day I took a lad back to my room and we had sex, the owner made his nightly visit and walked in as he and I were cuddling after. he didn't knock. just waltzed in. He went berserk! the lad who also worked there was chased out and I was called all manor of names slut, slag, whore, prick tease. etc. This man knew I was alone in the world, he knew I had no parental support and that as my employer he held a position of authority over me.

These things are just a few example of things I experienced as a teenager, but My point is that though these things happened to me, I was also very capable of having positive consensual sexual encounters on my own terms and with men of my own choosing . I was able to differentiate between abuse and consent, even though sometimes the men I had sexual relationships as a teen were much older I wouldn't say they were abusing me, Its about mutual desire and forming a good healthy bond based on similar personalities, shared ideals, experiences, interests etc. In other words forming a true relationship with mutual respect and equality.

You can't assume that everyone is the same as you and handles things in the same way. or fails to handle them as the case may be.

your right our own experience makes us biased, the problem arises when one person insists that their take on it it the ONLY acceptable view and won't acknowledge anyone else's thoughts or experiences. Whilst I can understand that your experiences have caused you to become sex adverse, and Hyper religious and that you feel scarred by it. I can not agree that this means ALL young teenagers can not have sexual desire,or ought to suppress ALL sexual desire as they are incapable of consensual sexual experiences. I object to the insinuation that if I do not comply to your way of thinking then I support sexual abuse. Which when you continually go on and on about 9 year olds and younger having sex and state that this MUST be what I think, is exactly what you are doing.

And you then go on to bring lysa into it either you really are trying to Troll me, or you have not been on the boards long enough to learn that I am a BFC. who has full term Breastfed her children. So I shan't take the bait.

[SpringKing]

Precisely. And there are REASONS for that difference. It is the legal recognition of the fact that certain markers of physical maturity are not necessarily signs of mental maturity. The lord may be strong and grown enough to bed a woman and trot off to war - but NOT considered old enough to succeed to a man's estate - because he's STILL legally a child and therefore considered likely to be too unwise to handle it, regardless of the state of his body.

Age of consent laws in our time (which vary from place to place, but ALWAYS exist) are the recognition of the fact that physical readiness for sex doesn't necessarily mean mental readiness - especially not to deal with coercion by a genuine adult.

What bugs me is the confusion of the Westerosi idea that "a girl who bleeds is old enough to have sex" (regardless of whether that girl is sixteen or six) with OUR idea that she's old enough to CONSENT with full understanding. As in:

Our modern idea of age of consent has nothing to do with the Westerosi idea of female sexual maturity. The twelve year old Westerosi girl is NOT freely consenting to sex when she is offered up in marriage. Her adult guardian is consenting to the sex FOR HER. Her own desire and permission (or lack of it) is completely immaterial from a legal Westerosi standpoint.

So yeah, it's legal to marry off a menstruating child in Westeros whether she wants it or not. But legal doesn't necessarily make right, not in our world and not in Westeros, either. And the fact that even Westerosi would not necessarily consider such a thing right is shown by Ned's reluctance to marry off Sansa, by Tyrion's reluctance to bed Sansa and recognizing her as a child even though he knows very well she's "beddable" by strictly legal standards, even by Tywin's recognition that continuing to have sex after deflowering twelve year old Sansa would endanger a child's life with a pregnancy her body is too immature to handle.

And IMO, LF misusing his position as guardian and official father to molest the thirteen year old girl under his care would likely be considered wrong in Westeros even if it was considered technically legal - so "seduction" wouldn't be the right word.

A point of clarification on the issue of regency - Robb is 15 when he succeeds Ned as Lord of Winterfell and King of the North without anybody designated as his regent. So there is some flexibility involved in the chronological determination of child or adult status for males w/r/t positions of authority. The point about 'underage' US citizens not being legally entitled to hold certain positions of political power is that, even now, adult status doesnt automatically clear the arbitrary mental maturity checkpoint.

Tyrion is certainly less reluctant than Ned about Sansa's bedability. What this topic does bring to light is the change between (fictional) medieval mores and the modern. Most important is that, in the western world at least, the supremacy of male guardians over the sexual activity of their female wards is much reduced. But still, 'dad as daughter's watchdog' is a commonly accepted type.

[Lord Reaver]

Not sure we have Robb's birth date, but he's 15 going on 16, which seems to be just about when boys are considered to become adults, hence him not having a regent.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Isn't Joffrey expected to rule without a regent after his wedding to Marge. At which point he is still only 14.

[WeddinGuest]

I won't get into a detailed discussion about our personal lives, WWE, all I wanted to point out is that while we may draw the line at different points, you're not in favor of a totally sexually liberated society, anymore than I am. You didn't answer my question about whether you have an open marriage, but you did state that you weren't "amoral", so that makes me think you do judge people in open relationships as amoral, well I guess that means you think Oberyn and Ellaria were amoral? And since you deny being in favor of 9 year olds having sex, it's obvious to you that a 9 year old isn't ready to have sex, regardless of maturity level, well it's also "obvious" to many people than a 12 or 13 year old isn't ready to have sex. And to call people out as "judgemental" for not agreeing with you on exactly where to draw the line, is a mere ad hominem attack.

As for the actual story, you stated, without any caveats, that

Tyrion, well he was 13, he had sex with Tysha and then married her and they had lots and lots and lots of sex. Hmmm seems very similar to Robb & Jeyne,& Jon & Ygritte, sex first(desire) then love grows from that.

All I was saying that there's no absolute proof that "sex came first and then love grew from that" for ALL of these couples you listed, and this assumption seemed to be based on the idea that young teens are capable of sex, before they are capable of love.

Now you twist your own words and state:

Well mentioning that most teenage, and indeed adult relationships have lots & lots of sex at their conception is hardly reducing them to being solely about sex.

But that's not what you stated before. You stated that T+T having "lots of lots of sex" meant that sex came first and love came later. Which means that at the very beginning of the relationship, it was all based on sex, not love. Even though there's no proof of that, except your own bias that:

Relationships which grow first and later become love which leads to sex are wonderful too but usually come later in life.

You also twist my words when you state:

So your now saying you wouldn't be shocked and scandalised by Sansa having sex? even though the entire basis of your participation in this debate was that the idea of a 13 year old having sex is scandalous and shocking?

But I never said that a 13 year old having sex is scandalous and shocking. What I did state was:

I think it is possible to be disgusted at the idea of LF manipulating a passive Sansa into sex, without being a prude who never wants Sansa to experience sex at all, or who thinks there are no 13 year olds who have sexual thoughts and feelings or act on them.

I also took care to validate your own experiences of having sex at age 13. But sure, feel free to ignore all my goodwill gestures and label me a troll.

As for the BF comment, that wasn't even directed at you, it was a sincere question directed at a totally different poster, asking why she thought SR "desired" Sansa, and making a statement that I didn't think SR grabbing Sansa's breasts should be interpreted as a sexual gesture, anymore than his extended BFing off Lysa was. She then brought up SR kissing Sansa on the lips, which I do think (especially when she compares it with the misremembered Hound kiss) does indeed count as a gesture of "desire". Anyway, if you're so convinced I'm a troll out to get you, why don't you just put me on ignore?

[Woman of War]

He is trying to annul her marriage with Tyrion. It isn't very practical of him to claim her virginity.

In RL small surgical interventions to restore a girl's virginity before marriage are routine measures all over the world. They are done in societies or cultural groups where the clash between the official ideology of virginity as testimony of having stayed away from sin is supposed to be kept upright. This may be a necessity to protect the young woman from violence by her own family members or to keep upright her market value as being "unspoilt" and "not a whore". A whore in that cultural background being every woman or girl who expresses erotic desire.

In my big Western European city the addresses of gynecologists who do that job out of pity for free or for very little money are an open secret in the respective communities. And those operations have been done by midwives throughout history, together with advices how to believably play the virgin in emergency cases. Men have always been easy to fool. The real danger for the young woman in question has always been the gossip of other women, sad to say.

So if Sansa's credibility is to be restored it will be done. An intact virginity is not a matter of anatomical facts but of what preferred result an exam is supposed to produce. Many women are by the way born without a hymen to speak of. And even women who had had sex may bleed if the arranged or forced husband Daddy bought for them is incompetent.

Virginity is ideology not a physical state of a woman's body and its proof is subject to politics.

And if Sansa wants she may either find help in Myranda to fake virginity or to get rid of it in order to be useless for the next marriage plot.

Btw. Loving sex can be wonderful and is certainly the three star seven course meal while a casual one night stand is fast food at the corner. But sometimes you are simply hungry and sometimes the unknown and not really sterile stuffing is what makes you curious. The casual sex has its own thrills.

And I was also an early starter, I did not regret one moment since it was fun and I did not feel abused - or it would have been me who abused the boys just as much. But while i could enjoy sex I indeed was not prepared at fourteen to enter a long lasting relationship with all emotional commitment. I had not even decided for a subject to study back then, a far more life shaping decision in our Western culture, let alone for a person to spend my life with! It is therefore absolutely reasonable to declare young kids able to have loving and kind sex while they are definitely too young for marriage and children. Just like kids at fourteen or sixteen are competent newspaper readers and highschool politicians but please leave ruling a country to adults!

What counts is to create a protected space where young people can experiment with life, not only sex but education, their own money and their own circle of friends without getting slut shamed if something goes wrong. Meaning we as adults cannot try to overprotect them, not from youporn nor active sex. We can only tell them that sex partners deserve respect and that youporn can be cruel abuse.

And if cultures equal the marriage age with physical maturity, forcing their children into arranged marriages this is against all human rights but an act of violence very much existing in out world, not in Westeros only.

I have always seen the relationship of Tyrion and Tysha as being a very special thing, martin in Tyrion's memories has lifted it far above the normal crush of teenagers. Tyrion having found an emotional home in Tysha, something very special to him, something he never had. And Tysha being an exceptional personality who had the maturity to look behind looks and to see the hidden gifted and loving boy. But then we see how easy it was for Tywin to crush Tyrion, the thirteen year old. It might not have been as easy with an older boy, it wasn't when it came to Sansa. Tyrion's certainly existing love for Tysha would have been, to name it melodramatically, stronger. He could not have saved Tysha but he would have spared her the last humiliation to betray their love. And he would have spared himself the destruction of his personality. He was too young to be truly strong, Tywin would have needed more than a thirteen year old opponent.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you Woman Of War, I never expected to be saying this to you but BRAVO!!!!!!

[Woman of War]

Thank you Woman Of War, I never expected to be saying this to you but BRAVO!!!!!!

:bowdown:

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

snip

You say you won't get into a personal discussion, yet go on to press me to give intimate details about my marriage, really?

No I won't answer that, Wether or not I am in favour of a totally sexually liberated society or not is not in question.I don't need to justify my personal feelings to you. I do have the right to call you out on your massively judgemental attitude towards other peoples sex lives though. I most certainly do not judge people in open relationships as Amoral. Not one bit! the fact you are making such a stretch is yet another example of your own narrow mindedness.

The fact that I see that a 9 year old won't be ready for sex even if they have undergone precocious puberty is not equivalent to people who think a 13 year old who has undergone regular puberty can not ever be ready for sex. One scenario is an acknowledged physiological abnormality occurring in the minority of children, the other the very normal development in the vast majority of human beings. There is no parallel to be drawn.

You twisted almost every word I wrote, and acknowledged that this is what you were doing, Its a bit rich to then get upset at a dose of your own medicine.

The issue of T&T and how they came to love each other could probably be cleared up by a detailed re read of the accounts told of what happened. IIRC jamie & Tyrion came across Tysha in some woods and she was being attacked. They rescued her and Tyrion and she ended up having sex, they stayed together for a few weeks, having lots of sex and declaring they loved one another and they got a septon to marry them, but when Tywin found out he told Tyrion she had been nothing but a whore and got Jamie to corroborate the lie. Before taking Tyrion to see her earning her money, ie the gang rape.

Now If you care to look up and quote the tale from the text we can discuss it properly. I don't have my books currently as they are loaned out to a friend.

Now You picked up my OP on this and decided to start twisting things around to fit your own views. I also have said over and again I don't feel comfortable with LF manipulating Sansa into an abusive sexually exploitative relationship.

If it was as simple as you misunderstanding my various clearly stated posts saying that this would have ended a couple of pages back.

This is I believe what you said in regard to my post which was not about LF & Sansa specifically at all, but was more a personal rant regarding the various attitudes which were being subtely expressed in the thread and on teh board as a whole regarding young female sexuality.

"I can't think of any 12-15 year old major BOY character in ASOIAF depicted this way either. Jon certainly isn't, we don't know details re Robb but he actually seems scandalized when Theon starts describing his sexual exploits, I doubt that if Bran survives to 12-15 he would (his injury is assumed to have left him incapable of sex but that's not certain). Likely Theon was like that at that age, but Tyrion, for example, didn't just fuck Tysha at age 13, he actually loved her and married her. There's also a big difference between "wanking" and "trying to get laid", unless you're talking about the kind of person who sees sexual partners merely as sex objects to be used to gain sexual pleasure from, and is essentially just masturbating in all sexual encounters.

Personally, I find that approach to sex really shallow and not very fulfilling in the end, for either gender. I never understood this idea that "women using men as sex objects is a sign of triumphant feminism and gender equality", I think that's just as problematic as men using women as sex objects. I also think the line between consensual casual sex and sexual exploitation is much blurrier than many assume. Call me a prude for that if you want, but to be clear, I'm not applying this to just women, I'm applying it to both genders.

As you can see you went off the deep end regarding casual sex and sexuality. Not really in relation to the story either, you tried to make out that the various boys in story are mainly not having any sexual feelings until they spontaneously fall in love. You then had your little outburst regarding casual sex in which you made some pretty stupid assumptions about what other people think & feel and expressed a patriarchal attitude towards others IE I know better than you what is good for you..You keep brining Prudishness into this as if you assume I think your a prude. I couldn't care less if you decide for yourself you don't wish to have sex. I might feel sorry for you at most but you have no place making choices for others and in your posts time & again you come across as if you feel you do.

You told us about an experience you had which in hind sight you realise was abusive, this is your experience. Fair enough. I also took a lot of time and revealed some personal things ( luckily I couldn't give a shit who knows about these events in my life as I feel no shame and was in no way at fault in any of them.) in order to let you know I empathise But pointed out that whilst abusive or exploitative events can and do cause very real harm, that the fact they happen does not mean one can not ever have positive consensual experiences, and that its possible to understand the difference between the two. So basically I had some awful things happen to me but don't feel I need to deny all adolescents sexuality as a result. I understand that having negative experiences does not cancel out the good ones. I was rather hoping that eventually you would grasp this too.

I'm glad to hear it was not a personal attempt to bait me regarding the BF comments, I don't tend to put folk on Ignore (though admit I am coming close with one poster who's insensible whitterings drive me batty.)

Its not often I call troll. I don't think you are one either but rather that your deliberate misrepresentation of my words was trolling. The guy I am close to ignoring is IMO a Troll as he only ever seems to post to rile people up and the crap he comes out with is a joke!

Ask WOW she & I very rarely agree on much, But I wouldn't call her a troll and I wouldn't put heron Ignore, if I had I'd never have seen her fantastic succinct and spot on post above.