Sansa and Harry's marriage.

[liknar]

I don't think the marriage will happen but if it did. Harry the Heir can mobilize the Vale just as easily as the heir with LF/SR support as he could with SR dead and Harry as lord. Sansa gets pregnant at some point either Harry's or LF's. Harry dies on some battlefield. As long as SR dies of natural/overdose causes before he becomes an adult LF loses nothing. Harry has more incentive to take the North while SR is alive. To go from nothing to control the North is huge, but to go from control of Vale to North and the Vale is good but no Great. There is no gain in SR's death.

[mambru]

But while SR is Lord of the Vale, HH is only a knight. He has no power to order the armies and go to war on his own - and if the Vale goes to war while SR is Lord Paramount, all the Lords of the Vale would outrank him and order him around. How can he "take the North" while kowtowing to them?

[liknar]

He will outrank them. As soon as Harry marries San he has claim to Lord Paramount of the North so, even if he is not their lord Paramount he still outranks them.

Add to that he is what SR isn't well liked, strong, and charismatic. San and Harry marry San is reviled to the lords of the Vale as a Stark. SR and Harry both pledge to get the North back for her. The lord know that SR can't be long for the world as it is, he is known as a sickly child. The lords will want there future lord to think well on them. So they ride with him under Sansa's stark Banners.

[Lee-Sensei]

He will outrank them. As soon as Harry marries San he has claim to Lord Paramount of the North so, even if he is not their lord Paramount he still outranks them.

Add to that he is what SR isn't well liked, strong, and charismatic. San and Harry marry San is reviled to the lords of the Vale as a Stark. SR and Harry both pledge to get the North back for her. The lord know that SR can't be long for the world as it is, he is known as a sickly child. The lords will want there future lord to think well on them. So they ride with him under Sansa's stark Banners.

The problem with this is, isn't Sansa wanted for Kingslaying? Also, the Lords of the Vale won't mobilize until Harry's their Lord. Rickon's probably going to show up in TWoW too.

[Colonel Green]

The problem with this is, isn't Sansa wanted for Kingslaying?

When you're declaring war on the Iron Throne, that doesn't really matter.

[Petyr Patter]

I don't think the marriage will ever happen.

For starters, Tyrion is still very much alive, and polygamy is very much illegal.

Littlefinger thought he had a full proof plan to kill Tyrion, but a combination of Varys, Jaime, and plot armor has kept him alive despite his and Cersei's best efforts.

An annulment is a theoretical possibility, but (and this is important) ONLY THE HIGH SEPTON CAN GRANT AN ANNULMENT. If the High Sparrow receives a letter asking to annul the marriage of the known heir to the North from the son of Tywin Lannister so she can marry the known heir to the Vale... this is very political. The High Sparrow is going to realize its very political, especially with regicide accusations floating over Sansa's head. He is going to want to talk this one out, see what the consequences of action are, and get his price (such as a chance to try Sansa in a Faith of the Seven, or a promise from Sansa to bring the Faith of the Seven to the North).

So, Littlefinger isn't going to want to do the annulment route. Hence, he will delay the marriage until Tyrion is confirmed dead... which isn't going to happen.

Of course, all that assumes Littlefinger is on the level. Does anyone actually believe Littlefinger is on the level. I wrote a thread pointing out how it is far more likely that Littlefinger is planning on killing Sansa as oppose to giving her Winterfell and the Eyrie. Check it out: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99141-bad-news-baelish-or-purple-wedding-20/

The short version, Littlefinger routinely kills off people who try to work with him: Eddard, Ser Dontos, Lysa, and I'm sure others.

[Colonel Green]

I don't think the marriage will ever happen.

I don't think it's likely to get that far either. But we're discussing the hypothetical plan.

I wrote a thread pointing out how it is far more likely that Littlefinger is planning on killing Sansa as oppose to giving her Winterfell and the Eyrie.

That's far-fetched in the extreme, given the lengths he's gone to.

[Petyr Patter]

I don't think it's likely to get that far either. But we're discussing the hypothetical plan.

That's far-fetched in the extreme, given the lengths he's gone to.

What is more far fetched, that Littlefinger is giving Sansa Winterfell and the Eyrie out of the goodness of his heart to see Catelyn's daughter happy? Or he is planning on killing someone who knows he's guilty of some pretty terrible things?

I think it is interesting to recall that Sansa first got her letter from "secret friend" right after Tyrion (falsely) promised Littlefinger Harrenhall. At this point, Sansa isn't heir to anything, but a valuable hostage to negotiate with the King in the North should the Lannisters lose (and the Lannisters were losing at that time). He kept the plan intact despite the changing circumstances, since it isn't hurting him right now to keep Sansa around. Yet, there is quite a difference between hiding her and empowering her. Hence, kill her in such a way to benefit Littlefinger.

Indeed, what does he truly want Sansa's love? Or is he looking for surrogate for revenge?

[Colonel Green]

What is more far fetched, that Littlefinger is giving Sansa Winterfell and the Eyrie out of the goodness of his heart to see Catelyn's daughter happy?

Er, nobody was arguing that. Sansa getting Winterfell and the Eyrie means him getting Winterfell and the Eyrie, and it's not to make her happy.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Petyr Patter - I totally agree!

If she marries Harry the Heir and reveals herself to obtain support of the Lords of the Vale, that will stir up all kinds of sh*t storms. Cersei will know that Littlefinger tricked her, that he was in on the murder plot as well as the one that helped Sansa escape. And now she will know where Sansa is and the Queen’s wrath will soon descend upon the both of them. No doubt she will send her best, most brutal men, including Ser Strong. Or hire some sellswords or assassins. Cersei said she wanted Sansa to beg for death. I don’t see Littlefinger making that kind of major mistake, so I believe that he lied to Sansa. This story of her ‘coming out’ by wearing her maiden’s cloak with the direwolf, and all the Lords of the Vale upon realizing who she really is will fall upon their knees in before her in support and love. How they will help her get Winterfell back….what a load of crock! It’s complete fairy tale.

Littlefinger needs Sansa to win Harry’s heart but he is not concerned about getting her married anytime soon, he just wants the betrothal. Why? The Lords of the Vale are already steaming mad at him. 'How dare he declare himself Lord Protector of the Vale. How dare he presume that he rule over them?' Littlefinger has possession of SweetRobin and refuses to let him go, which the Lords of the Vale see as a threat. So how would they feel when his bastard daughter is betrothed to Harry, the last ‘Heir’? My theory on that is this: They would fear for SweetRobin even more and it might move them to action. They are not stupid, that's why they want to get SweetRobin out of his hands. And I believe that Littlefinger has already informed the Queen that he was on the verge of a siege. So perhaps that’s what he wants?

If he wants to rule the Vale outright, he would need to get both SweetRobin and Harry the Heir out of the picture, especially if Sansa actually marries Harry. Then she will rule the Vale alongside Harry, not Littlefinger. The betrothal of Harry might prove to be the ‘last straw’ for the Lords of the Vale. Littlefinger has not hidden the fact that he is attempting to get a foothold in the Vale by keeping possession of SweetRobin who is sickly. And now attempting to wed his bastard daughter to the last heir might be too much. If it does come to an all out war and he can get the crown to step in, declaring him the outright Lord or the Lord Protector of the Vale, then he could rule without needing Harry the Heir to marry Sansa, and he would break the betrothal. He wouldn't need the crown to send a large army either since the defenses of the Eyrie are...impregnable. Not to mention he could always turn to the Mountain Clans for help. They have Lannister steel now, and are itching to get their land back from the Lords of the Vale. It just appears to me that he is trying to entice them into a siege.

Littlefinger said Sansa needs to be ‘safely widowed’ before she marries Harry the Heir. So he needs a confirmation that Tyrion is indeed dead before she can marry Harry. Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock. After that there is Cersei and her children, and I'm sure Littlefinger has enough dirt on her to 'take her out of the game' anytime he needs to. Next would be Lancel, who is out when he took a vow to the Faith, and then there is Tyrek who disappeared in the riot. Rumor has it that Varys kidnapped him. Would Sansa inherit Casterly Rock if Tyrion was killed? I don’t know.

She would need to establish that the marriage was not consummated by submitting to an inspection by the Faith before they would grant her an annulment. I doubt she would want to remain married to him, nor he to her. And it’s my theory that she eventually will want to get the marriage thrown out, so that means no sex for her or else she's stuck with Tyrion until one of them dies. Also if she does go before the Faith it would probably reveal herself not only because they would have to state both their names, but also 'the rug doesn't match the drapes' anymore. The Faith and will probably might turn her over for justice. She is a fugitive after all, and again, the Queen’s wrath will quickly descend upon Littlefinger.

Littlefinger has assigned Lothor Brune ‘watch out’ for her, making sure she was not accosted. He might realize that for political reasons, it’s best she remains a maiden. It would give him more options if his plans need to be changed. Also I have a theory that he wants to claim her maidenhead eventually. Gross, but I wouldn’t put it past him. And he does seem to be heading in that direction with his creepy kissing. And he did offer to marry Sansa before, so he does have thoughts about claiming Winterfell. That would be the ultimate revenge.

[Colonel Green]

If she marries Harry the Heir and reveals herself to obtain support of the Lords of the Vale, that will stir up all kinds of sh*t storms. Cersei will know that Littlefinger tricked her, that he was in on the murder plot as well as the one that helped Sansa escape. And now she will know where Sansa is and the Queen’s wrath will soon descend upon the both of them.

Cersei is in the process of burning down her entire kingdom. Littlefinger's plans necessarily involve getting rid of the Lannisters.

The Lords of the Vale are already steaming mad at him.

Er, no, he's buddied up to most of them by the end of AFFC.

If he wants to rule the Vale outright, he would need to get both SweetRobin and Harry the Heir out of the picture

There's no scenario where Littlefinger becomes the outright ruler of the Vale. That's an Arryn position, through and through. If the current lord and his immediate heir die, the next person in line will get it (whoever that is).

I find the idea that he's somehow angling to get the Iron Throne to make him lord especially weird, since he's doing everything in his power to undermine the authority of said Throne, and they will quite soon have no power even to defend themselves, let alone to somehow force him on the Vale.

Would Sansa inherit Casterly Rock if Tyrion was killed?

No. Case closed.

[Michael Herman]

I'm not sure about this. Surely they can just get a septa to examine Sansa's maidenhead and then the wedding will be declared void? It shouldn't take too long.

Yay, more creepy old women sticking their fingers up teenage girls' vaginas! As if we don't have enough of that already.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

When you're declaring war on the Iron Throne, that doesn't really matter.

Unless you are afraid she will kill again.

[Colonel Green]

Unless you are afraid she will kill again.

Which you wouldn't be. Sansa is thought to have killed Joffrey for the blatantly obvious reason that he murdered her father and then made war on and destroyed her family. Nobody thinks she's Ramsay Bolton.

[SpringKing]

Er, nobody was arguing that. Sansa getting Winterfell and the Eyrie means him getting Winterfell and the Eyrie, and it's not to make her happy.

When LF reveals his Vale+North marriage scheme to Sansa, its amusing how he seems to think that power play will be romantically seductive - "That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?" Sex and power are emotionally intertwined in his mind. In that way Sansa is even more alluring than Cat because he can control her. Something he wasnt quite adept enough to do in his youth, so he had to settle for deflowering Lysa, the lesser prize, instead.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Which you wouldn't be. Sansa is thought to have killed Joffrey for the blatantly obvious reason that he murdered her father and then made war on and destroyed her family. Nobody thinks she's Ramsay Bolton.

There's a wide spectrum of killerhood between completely innocent and Ramsay. I'm not saying anyone thinks she's a psycho, just that there may be an element among them who think if she did it once it could happen again. The first one makes subsequent ones easier on the conscience. That's why soldiers talk about their first kill, not their second, third, sixteenth, etc.

She's also been with Littlefinger and they don't trust him. So even if they think she's totally innocent, it would make sense to be cautious. Being close to her would put her husband close to LF and I don't think anyone would shy away from the idea that he would off somebody who got in his way.

[Lady Winter Rose]

We were just discussing LF's potential extended plan. The marriage isnt going to happen because SR's OD on sweetsleep is going to blow up LF's scheme. Suddenly Harry is Lord, LF isnt Lord Protector, and Alayne isnt the daughter of a Lord Protector.

She would be daughter of Lord of Harrenhal. But she will still be a bastard, so she is not a great catch.

[juanml82]

I doubt that everyone is Westeros has to go to the high septon everytime they want a marriage annulled. Any septa could confirm that Sansa still has her maidenhead and annul the marriage.

GRRM said only the High Septon or a "Council of the Faith" (whatever that means) can annul a marriage. And in a society based so much around marriage alliances, yes, the whole point of marriages is that they have to be very difficult to dissolve. Otherwise, what's the whole point?

Me thinks LF could get the annulment by allowing the Faith Militant into the Vale, but I don't think he'd want to pay such a prize. I also wonder if the Vale can judge crimes committed in King's Landing. What happens if, after Cersei looses whatever power she has left, a mockery of a trial by jury (or better, a trial by combat) in the Gates of the Moon finds Sansa Stark innocent of Joffrey's death?

The problem with this is, isn't Sansa wanted for Kingslaying? Also, the Lords of the Vale won't mobilize until Harry's their Lord. Rickon's probably going to show up in TWoW too.

Aye. But Littlefinger doesn't know that :lol:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

GRRM said only the High Septon or a "Council of the Faith" (whatever that means) can annul a marriage. And in a society based so much around marriage alliances, yes, the whole point of marriages is that they have to be very difficult to dissolve. Otherwise, what's the whole point?

Me thinks LF could get the annulment by allowing the Faith Militant into the Vale, but I don't think he'd want to pay such a prize. I also wonder if the Vale can judge crimes committed in King's Landing. What happens if, after Cersei looses whatever power she has left, a mockery of a trial by jury (or better, a trial by combat) in the Gates of the Moon finds Sansa Stark innocent of Joffrey's death?

Aye. But Littlefinger doesn't know that :lol:

Would you perhaps have a quote for that? That would be extremely usefull in another thread :)

[juanml82]

Would you perhaps have a quote for that? That would be extremely usefull in another thread :)

Somewhere along here

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.4./

Not sure what "III: 362" means. It probably refers to the interview or something where GRRM said it. Or maybe it simply means "Book three, page 362"

A marriage that has not been consumated can be set aside by the High Septon or a Council of Faith

Edit: yes, that's it. Tywin and Tyrion, A Storm of Swords

“She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?”

“By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is.”