Casting Outrage Hypocrasy

[WeddinGuest]

Even then, I hate this kind of criticism. When did it become offensive to write a story that featured lighter skinned people?

And as far anyone else trying to say "the dark skinned ones in the books are portrayed more negatively!" I would argue against that since just about every major family/race we've seen in the books are more than capable of atrocities.

I don't think it's offensive per se to write a story about lighter skinned people but I understand what many people are saying about minorities being under-represented in pop culture. It's also a question of which stories are considered significant enough to tell. The critique of the recent Disney "Frozen" movie, for example, wasn't really "why aren't there black people in this story set in the North" but "why did they choose THIS story as opposed to another one that would have been more inclusive".

Also, re the "dark-skinned" people being portrayed more negatively, well, I certainly see a connection between "darker skin" and "more sexual openness", apparently the Summer Islanders have no concept of romantic or familial relationships at all and just have orgies all the time, I don't even recall marriage being ever mentioned as part of their culture, which is not true for the Dothraki, who are also a very sexually open society but do have marriage customs. And certainly, the Summer Islanders are the darkest-skinned ethnic group we've seen so far.

The Dornish too are stereotyped this way and fans routinely assume, for example, that "Elia was Dornish, so of course she didn't care if her husband ran off with another woman". Well, our own modern culture is much more sexually open than, say, a traditional Islamic one, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone is sleeping around and having open relationships.

I also think there's much to be said about how ridiculously cartoonish the Essosi villians are in comparison to the Westerosi ones. (Though not all the Essosi characters are dark-skinned, they do seem quite "othered" in comparison to someone like, say, Ramsay, whose actions can be compared seriously to the MO of RL serial killers. A whole culture getting off on, for example, seeing children eaten by bears - not so much.)

[Lady Winter Rose]

As a Mediterranean girl, I feel offended you call me person of color. Persons of colors are good as I am, but it's very annoying that someone thinks you can only be white if you have pink skin. Besides, check wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race

I don't know what olive skin means, or how it looks, but I don't think olive skin means dark as olive oil.

P.S. My skin is sensitive, so some areas (nose and cheeks) are reddish or pink, but rest is pale. Most of my classmates have relatively pale skin.

[AdelinaZ]

That's what I really find rather offensive IMHO about this controversy, how some people are taking it upon themselves to classify Pedro Pascal himself as "white" or "white-passing", as if there is some exact shade of "whiteness" vs "brownness" that can be objectively determined. I don't know how Pedro Pascal identifies himself, but I recall some posters on WIC.net going as far as to accuse him of deliberately emphasizing his "ethnic" credentials when "he's obviously just as white as Nikolaj". That strikes me as race-conscious to the point where we're bordering on actual racism.

This, so much. Also, it correlates with what Lady Winter Rose said. Too many people trying to pigeonhole others, it seems and I too find it offensive. Apparently to some, people from my area are "too brown" and to others "not brown enough", whatever that sort of thing means.

For the record, some people from my country look like Pedro Pascal, olive skin, dark hair, dark eyes. Most people actually have lighter skin than him, but are still dark-haired and brown-eyed. Some (obviously, they are fewer) are blond and have light eyes. Quite often you find a variety of colourings within the same family, just like it happens all over the world. GRRM said that the salty Dornish are supposed to look like Southern Europeans, Pedro Pascal matches a very specific type of a Southern European. End of story.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The absolute surety that they should be cast with South Asian actors is a fairly recent thing. I suspect driven in large part by the TV show's casting needs, and the many actors of South Asian extraction available in the UK, so I think people started leaning that way and have become wedded to the idea. I've no idea if Tumblr is the source of it or not, though. Prior to the TV show, the idea of Dornish=South Asian was practically non-existent, at least according to Google.

Oh man. *stifles back a guffaw*

You know this whole thing is new to me too. I always assumed that the Martells were to be a bit Mediterranean based.

They're supposed to have olive skin. How does that make one think they're South Asian? Shouldn't they have been described as brown-skinned, then? Not to mention that the climate and look of Dorne is obviously inspired by the Mediterranean, in addition to the description of the look of the Dornish. And didn't GRRM outright say that they're supposed to look like the Spanish, the Greek or the Italian?

No, he didn't. In the show, he emphasized that he wants to fuck her but not rape her. "I can be very persuasive".

Yeah he pretty much did. And indeed.

That's what I really find rather offensive IMHO about this controversy, how some people are taking it upon themselves to classify Pedro Pascal himself as "white" or "white-passing", as if there is some exact shade of "whiteness" vs "brownness" that can be objectively determined. I don't know how Pedro Pascal identifies himself, but I recall some posters on WIC.net going as far as to accuse him of deliberately emphasizing his "ethnic" credentials when "he's obviously just as white as Nikolaj". That strikes me as race-conscious to the point where we're bordering on actual racism.

Omg yes. OMG! DIS RIGHT HERE! You, *points* thanks for saying it. Someone was gonna say it and i thought it was gonna have to be me again. :cheers:

The critique of the recent Disney "Frozen" movie, for example, wasn't really "why aren't there black people in this story set in the North" but "why did they choose THIS story as opposed to another one that would have been more inclusive".

*raises eyebrow* Why not that story though? Its a story that really isnt known outside of Scandinavia. Granted i havent seen that movie yet, but going off what i know about it, they probably picked it due to its obscurity outside that part of the world. That, and i hear it was quite kind and empowering for its two female leads.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Casting a POC for a white character is not the same as casting a white actor for a POC character. White characters are overrepresented in western media, which means disproportionately less employment opportunities for POC actors. Racebeding white characters compensates for this imbalance, whereas the opposite further reduces employment for POC actors.

As for the people complaining that the actor isn't dark enough, I imagine they're just dissapointed that the show didn't take the opportunity to have more visual diversity.

Also, Dorne seems to be influenced by Persian/Arabic culture, so it could be seen as somewhat appropriative to have the Dornish being played by people of other ethnicities.

[Ran]

WeddinGuest,

apparently the Summer Islanders have no concept of romantic or familial relationships at all

The first is purely speculative, the second is clearly wrong (Kojja Mo is explicitly the daughter of Quhuru Mo, so they pay attention to such stuff)

and just have orgies all the time

If people die all the time, I guess they do, but I doubt they do, as in that case the Summer Isles would be depopulated.

I don't even recall marriage being ever mentioned as part of their culture

We've met an exiled prince, a prostitute and her daughter, and the crew of a ship. That Kojja Mo's mother is not mentioned does not mean she doesn't exist. Similarly, that marriages aren't mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

"Elia was Dornish, so of course she didn't care if her husband ran off with another woman".

Silly argument. It's even said in the books that anger from the Martells was why it took so long for them to provide support. People are quick to make up stuff.

[Which Tyler]

Because white people are so under-represented! Not.

Under-represented compared to what? Westeros as written by GRRM? Planetos as written by GRRM? The Earth? the USA? the UK? N.Ireland? The community of professional actors within the UK?

[WeddinGuest]

Under-represented compared to what? Westeros as written by GRRM? Planetos as written by GRRM? The Earth? the USA? the UK? N.Ireland? The community of professional actors within the UK?

Also, I find it very ironic that when the showrunners actually hired a large number of local inhabitants of Morocco to play slaves in the "Mhysa" scene, they were accused of being racist. But I bet that if they'd flown in a bunch of white extras from the UK or Europe, they'd have been accused of being racist, too. That doesn't mean I don't think that scene wasn't cheesy beyond belief, but it really does seem many self-appointed racial watchdogs proceed under the assumption that EVERY white person is racist until proven otherwise. That kind of prejudice seems rather racist in itself, but of course, according to the sociology experts, "reverse racism" doesn't exist, only white people can be racist.

[King Zee]

Personally I think it may have been the constant references to Arrianne's brown nipples and to nut brown children bathing in the Water gardens that many people may have conflated into the Dornish being brown and therefore South Asian.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Under-represented compared to what? Westeros as written by GRRM? Planetos as written by GRRM? The Earth? the USA? the UK? N.Ireland? The community of professional actors within the UK?

Underrepresented in western media, in general, as well as within this book, obviously.

Also, I find it very ironic that when the showrunners actually hired a large number of local inhabitants of Morocco to play slaves in the "Mhysa" scene, they were accused of being racist. But I bet that if they'd flown in a bunch of white extras from the UK or Europe, they'd have been accused of being racist, too. That doesn't mean I don't think that scene wasn't cheesy beyond belief, but it really does seem many self-appointed racial watchdogs proceed under the assumption that EVERY white person is racist until proven otherwise. That kind of prejudice seems rather racist in itself, but of course, according to the sociology experts, "reverse racism" doesn't exist, only white people can be racist.

You've misunderstood the criticism. Think about how it looks when all the protagonists are white, and the only POC are slaves (slaves worshipping their white saviour, no less), slavers, savages, and greedy cheats. It's like if Arya, Cersei, etc, didn't exist and all the women in the show were whores and kitchen wenches. The underlying complaint is that there are no positive portrayals of POC to offset the aforementioned negative ones.

[Which Tyler]

Underrepresented in western media, in general, as well as within this book, obviously.

Doesn't answer my question. Under-represented compared to what?

I've seen complaints about other shows being racist/whitewashed despite having above average for it's country representation of minorities. It also always seems that minorities that aren't african-american (spits) often don't count as minorities.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Except it is kind of obvious that the Dornish people aren't white. For one they eat Pita and hummus which both of things come from the middle-east. Plus it said they have olive skin, brown eyes and black hair. You could easily cast them as brown people. In fact a lot of people envisioned them as South-asian.

Even though they are clearly described as being "Mediterranean" looking and not Asian at all?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Say what? Middle-eastern and South-asian people look completely different from European people since they have significant darker skin color. Pedro is a terrible casting. He is a white latino man. Completely unsuitable.

Except Meditaranian people are indeed Latino looking. Or is Italy in the Meditaranian?

You are overreacting. He is described as looking Latino. He is being played by a Latino.

Go and cry racism somewhere else. Like, alone, in a cupboard.

[Rashtibram]

Doesn't answer my question. Under-represented compared to what?

Underrepresented compared to a fair, 50-50 portrayal of both white people and POC. Which is a pretty ridiculous complaint IMO: the show takes place in a society very much like late medieval Europe, there aren't going to be that many black people wandering around.

You've misunderstood the criticism. Think about how it looks when all the protagonists are white, and the only POC are slaves (slaves worshipping their white saviour, no less), slavers, savages, and greedy cheats. It's like if Arya, Cersei, etc, didn't exist and all the women in the show were whores and kitchen wenches. The underlying complaint is that there are no positive portrayals of POC to offset the aforementioned negative ones.

I do agree with this though: while it obviously wasn't intended to come off that way, the 'Mhysa' scene kind of felt like a 19th century propaganda piece for colonialism.

[Which Tyler]

Underrepresented compared to a fair, 50-50 portrayal of both white people and POC. Which is a pretty ridiculous complaint IMO: the show takes place in a society very much like late medieval Europe, there aren't going to be that many black people wandering around.

That's the feeling I get, or at least that it should represent distributions in USA. I remember Les Revenants getting criticised for having an ethnic mix approximately equal to that of semi-rural France rather than urban USA. Which is also where I picked up on African-American (spits) seeming to be the only minority that counts as a minority; example Latino not counting here, or Algerian in Les Revenants. This thread has even thrown up the bizarre theory that North Africans or Palestinians etc aren't "Mediterranean" or that food eaten is an indicator of skin colour / ethnicity in a fictional universe.

I do agree with this though: while it obviously wasn't intended to come off that way, the 'Mhysa' scene kind of felt like a 19th century propaganda piece for colonialism.

Oh I think it was; she's pretty much at the height of her arrogance and success right now; fall due in T minus...

[Rashtibram]

Oh I think it was; she's pretty much at the height of her arrogance and success right now; fall due in T minus...

That's definitely the way I've tried to look at it…and you could be right, but from the way it's filmed (the cinematography, the angelic music, the tone) I think such a viewing is hard to sustain. It feels like it's not quite cheesy enough to be intentional.

[Bastard of Savolax]

Casting a POC for a white character is not the same as casting a white actor for a POC character. White characters are overrepresented in western media, which means disproportionately less employment opportunities for POC actors. Racebeding white characters compensates for this imbalance, whereas the opposite further reduces employment for POC actors.

As for the people complaining that the actor isn't dark enough, I imagine they're just dissapointed that the show didn't take the opportunity to have more visual diversity.

Perhaps you are from the United States(?), but other Western countries remain predominantly white and thus there is no such thing as overrepresentation, just representation. Minorities are minorities for a reason. Let it also be reminded that the story takes place in a pseudo-Medieval European world and its surroundings. I know that political correctness bordering on flat-out race fetishism ("visual diversity", as you put it, for example) is trendy right now, but let´s remain reasonable. Most people who read about Oberyn in the books visualized him as a man of Mediterranean/South European appearance (as was described by the author himself!) so I´m really not understanding where this desire to distort the look of the Dornish (or at least those of Salty and Sandy extraction) comes from.

Overall Pedro Pascal seems to be a fine fit for the role.

[Marillon]

While I am not that fond of the casting of Oberyn I do love the actress for Ellaria Sand. She is perfect for the role :D

Was beginning to think I was alone :( Agree with you 100% on the Ellaria casting too, no one character has perfectly fit what I actually pictured in my mind as that one.

[Marillon]

As to the OPs question, the reason for that is the same reason there's no White/Caucasian pride month or WET. TV is already saturated enough with a majority race, is it such a big thing that one small role got taken away?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Also, I find it very ironic that when the showrunners actually hired a large number of local inhabitants of Morocco to play slaves in the "Mhysa" scene, they were accused of being racist. But I bet that if they'd flown in a bunch of white extras from the UK or Europe, they'd have been accused of being racist, too. That doesn't mean I don't think that scene wasn't cheesy beyond belief, but it really does seem many self-appointed racial watchdogs proceed under the assumption that EVERY white person is racist until proven otherwise. That kind of prejudice seems rather racist in itself, but of course, according to the sociology experts, "reverse racism" doesn't exist, only white people can be racist.

Right? Right?

I actually think if a Greek or Italian was casted for Oberyn, the same arguments would exist. If a Middle Eastern actor was casted, i also think there would be outcry cuz hes not "Dornish enough" or whatever. I dont think it matters who plays Oberyn, theres going to be nitpickers and it will end up looking like just what you said. Also this image is relevant.

Perhaps you are from the United States(?), but other Western countries remain predominantly white and thus there is no such thing as overrepresentation, just representation. Minorities are minorities for a reason. Let it also be reminded that the story takes place in a pseudo-Medieval European world and its surroundings. I know that political correctness bordering on flat-out race fetishism ("visual diversity", as you put it, for example) is trendy right now, but let´s remain reasonable. Most people who read about Oberyn in the books visualized him as a man of Mediterranean/South European appearance (as was described by the author himself!) so I´m really not understanding where this desire to distort the look of the Dornish (or at least those of Salty and Sandy extraction) comes from.

Overall Pedro Pascal seems to be a fine fit for the role.

Omigosh, *points* you actually said it. Thy balls, i commend them.