Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He does so in Storm of Swords: (Lengthy) :dunno: And completely avoids the instances on which I'd like to see him called out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayura Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Well, at the end of ASOIAF, the people in Meereen don't know whether Daenerys is still alive, more assume she is dead. Also, it seems that, at the end of ADWD, Daenerys is starting to turn things around she « remembers who she is » and she embraces her dragon side when she shares the burned horse with Drogon (at least that is how I saw it). Barristan Selmy is faithful to the just and kind Daenerys as he sees no madness in her... But if that was to change slightly though, would he still be vouching for Daenerys knowing the « son of Rhaegar » has raised his banners in Westeros while Daenerys Targaryen is playing at being a queen in Essos ? Moreover, I am also still partial to the theory Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne and, if it is the case, as Barristan is still very much in love with Ashara and has apparently been all of his life (to the point he still wonders what turn his life could have taken had he won at Harrenhal to crown her Queen of Love and Beauty), I think he could betray Daenerys « for love » and join Aegon's side. (but of course it is only if we accept the premise Ashara = Lemore. It might not be so, but I think it would be very interesting plot-wise. And also, GRRM likes to surprise his readers and Barristan seems so far to be the only man – save for Jorah – on who Daenerys can totally rely. So it would be quite surprising to have him betray Dany as we, readers, still doubt Barristan could ever betray Dany) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yeah, I'm sure it has been speculated before, but I had never thought of the possibility of Barristan betraying Dany for his love of Ashara/Lemore and joining Aegon. I didn't really buy the Ashara Dayne = Septa Lemore theories when I read them, but I'll have another look. Now it could serve some purpose after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And completely avoids the instances on which I'd like to see him called out on.Go on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 And yeah. There's no way to deny Barristan betrayed the Baratheons. He could either stay with Joffrey or join Stannis, depending on how he felt about the twincest accusations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Go on... If you insist: As a knight, he has sworn to uphold justice and defend the innocent and powerless. Cue Rhaella being raped by Aerys or Aerys murdering Rickard (and to a lesser extent Brandon). As a "citizen" of Westeros, he was obliged not to commit treason against Joff/Stannis or whomever he considered the lawful King (in that case, Joff). Dany as an alternative was out, since he ruled her and Viserys' claim out fifteen years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And so what? He still has an oath to the Baratheon line, the one he got when Robert pardoned him. Lord Commander is just a job, as Master of Coin, Whispers or Royal Cook. If his King thinks he is not fit for the Job, it doesnt change an inch the fact that he bent the knee to house Baratheon. When Tywin Lannister was no longer Aerys Hand it didnt mean he was no longer obligated to Targaryens as man and Lord. Barristan Selmy is a person, not a job. The person owes, not the job.How were his is vowes ???? "I swear to protect House Baratheon, and aknolwdge them as rightful Kings and wont ever rise against them....As long as they let me keep my job as a gloryfied Body Guard?Like it or not the man went against his oath two times. And tourned his back to two royal dinasties he bent the knee to. I have no idea what you are trying to argue here as I and others all agree that he is considered a traitor to the Realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayura Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yeah, I'm sure it has been speculated before, but I had never thought of the possibility of Barristan betraying Dany for his love of Ashara/Lemore and joining Aegon. I didn't really buy the Ashara Dayne = Septa Lemore theories when I read them, but I'll have another look. Now it could serve some purpose after all. tbh the fact that Barristant remembers Ashara quite vividly in ADWD while we also meet Lemore is the only reason why I am partial to Ashara = Lemore. Because it would give a reason for Barristan to switch sides and to betray Dany while he is the last person the readers expect to betray Daenerys at all. But of course, Lemore might just be someone else but I found the Barristan x lemore x dany storyline quite interesting :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubarey Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 "As a knight, he has sworn to uphold justice and defend the innocent and powerless. Cue Rhaella being raped by Aerys or Aerys murdering Rickard (and to a lesser extent Brandon). As a "citizen" of Westeros, he was obliged not to commit treason against Joff/Stannis or whomever he considered the lawful King (in that case, Joff). Dany as an alternative was out, since he ruled her and Viserys' claim out fifteen years ago." Except that when he is illegally removed from the King's Guard he is free to reconsider his entire relations to the Baratheon's and the Targ's. He sees that he was wrong to have given his oath and loyalty to Robert. That said he now does not see the Baratheon's as the rightful kings of Westeros but returns to his old ways and aligns himself to the Targ claiment. Also to the extent he was a Kings's Guard his vow to protect the King would supercede any normal Knightly vow. When he is thrown out of the King's Guard this allows him to reconsider his actions of 15 years ago. He does not see any Baratheon as a legitimate King but as a usurper and returns his loyalty to the Targ claiment. That he once thought differently does not stop him from honorably reconsidering the matter once he is thrown out of the King's Guard as that for him not only breaks the need to keep his oaths to Joffrey but the folly of ever accepting the rebellion. And if he does not accept the rebellion he has no duty to support any usurper whatever his last name may be. That others believe he is a traitor is irrelevant as we are asking if he could make himself switch to A. Its Selmy's view of his honor and duty that counts not what others believe of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 i don't think he will, but he will be conflicted as hell for it and will try to convince dany not to let another DoD happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If you insist: As a knight, he has sworn to uphold justice and defend the innocent and powerless. Cue Rhaella being raped by Aerys or Aerys murdering Rickard (and to a lesser extent Brandon). As a "citizen" of Westeros, he was obliged not to commit treason against Joff/Stannis or whomever he considered the lawful King (in that case, Joff). Dany as an alternative was out, since he ruled her and Viserys' claim out fifteen years ago. Legally talking, that's true. But...is that the right thing for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I have no idea what you are trying to argue here as I and others all agree that he is considered a traitor to the Realm.He's upset Barristan didn't go to Stannis. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 "As a knight, he has sworn to uphold justice and defend the innocent and powerless. Cue Rhaella being raped by Aerys or Aerys murdering Rickard (and to a lesser extent Brandon). As a "citizen" of Westeros, he was obliged not to commit treason against Joff/Stannis or whomever he considered the lawful King (in that case, Joff). Dany as an alternative was out, since he ruled her and Viserys' claim out fifteen years ago." Except that when he is illegally removed from the King's Guard he is free to reconsider his entire relations to the Baratheon's and the Targ's. He sees that he was wrong to have given his oath and loyalty to Robert. That said he now does not see the Baratheon's as the rightful kings of Westeros but returns to his old ways and aligns himself to the Targ claiment. Also to the extent he was a Kings's Guard his vow to protect the King would supercede and normal Knightly vow. When he is thrown out of the King's Guard this allows him to reconsider his actions of 15 years ago. He does not see any Baratheon as a legitimate King but as a usurper and returns his loyalty to the Targ claiment.That he one's thought differently does not stop him from honorably reconsidering the matter once he is thrown out of the King's Guard as that for him not only breaks the need to keep his oaths to Joffrey but the folly of ever accepting the rebellion. I don't want you to discuss it, but Barristan himself. Legally talking, that's true. But...is that the right thing for him? Who can tell? Only Barristan. That's why I'm so interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He's upset Barristan didn't go to Stannis. That's all.Stannis doesnt need him, Richard Horpe is more than enough.Im sad he betrayed Roberts memory. He owns his life to Robert, and he has done more for him than any Targaryen. Also, like it or not, he broke his oaths two times and not just one as you said. Thats my only point.Losing the job doesnt allow you to betray the throne.Look at him, he is a sad man, fighting a foreign war with people he doesnt care about nor respect. His Queen refuses to listen him and he probably will die in a pointless war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I wouldnt worry too much, Aegon is blackfyre/brightflame descendant and Barristan has never been sworn to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Stannis doesnt need him, Richard Horpe is more than enoughLol, yeah that name certainly carries the same weight in Westeros as Barristan the Bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Despite fighting a rebellion and allegedly fathering a bastard, most people hold Ned in high regard. Don't be obtuse. Man, I hate it when I'm obtuse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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