[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[Gwydden]

Can Faceless Men really only change faces?! I always thought they took the whole identity of the people they impersonate, include sex, height, stature, and so forth. Pate most certainly is not of the same height, stature, weight, and so forth as Jaqen, or is he?

I actually doubt they can even change as much as their faces. It seems to me their disguises are purely illusory and can't deceive touch.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Arya may be Arya of House Stark, but this means nothing legally. She is a girl, and she is neither the Lord nor the Ruling Lady of Winterfell. She cannot possibly sentence anyone to death, and then execute him. Not even a deserter of the Night's Watch. Westeros is not Braavos, either, and even Westeros is a lawful society. The right of pits and gallows is limited to lords, to enact it on their own land. Arya is neither a Lord, nor on her own land, when she kills Dareon.

Lord Varys, did you not see the part where I specifically divorced her actions from any kind of "legality". She doesn't give a sh*t about laws or legality.

Her own judgement is her legal code. And it is pretty much spot on. And when it turns out to be incorrect, as must surely happen at some point, then so be it. But she still only kills those that she BELIEVES are evil. The fact that her instinct is pretty much as accurate as the nose of a bloodhound really makes it much easier to make her case as well, I must add.

[Gwydden]

Lord Varys, did you not see the part where I specifically divorced her actions from any kind of "legality". She doesn't give a sh*t about laws or legality.

Her own judgement is her legal code. And it is pretty much spot on. And when it turns out to be incorrect, as must surely happen at some point, then so be it. But she still only kills those that she BELIEVES are evil. The fact that her instinct is pretty much as accurate as the nose of a bloodhound really makes it much easier to make her case as well, I must add.

And I'm sure Robert believed Rhaegar was evil. Yet if he was indeed in love with Lyanna, his worst crime was being an idiot. Arya is just killing anyone she doesn't like simply because she doesn't like them. And though more often than not she's justified (since most of those poeple did some really nasty things, and she was often their victim in one way or another) she really had no business killing Daeron, who's worst crime was publicly humiliating Sam.

[Lord Varys]

All I was trying to say is that Arya's code of honor does not honor the laws and customs of Westeros, i.e. she follows only her own rules and whims, which is exactly what a sociopath does.

On the Faceless Man:

'The Ugly Little Girl' established that the face-changing of the Faceless Men is something deeper and different than a mere glamor, which would be merely an illusion. Thus, Melisandre is most likely no man, or Stannis would have realized it by now...

A Faceless Man who wears a face sees his own face and body in a mirror, but anyone else sees what he is supposed to see. I think this could extend to the touch as well, else the Faceless Man could just use glamors instead of the rather complicated face-change transformation thing...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

All I was trying to say is that Arya's code of honor does not honor the laws and customs of Westeros, i.e. she follows only her own rules and whims, which is exactly what a sociopath does.

On the Faceless Man:

'The Ugly Little Girl' established that the face-changing of the Faceless Men is something deeper and different than a mere glamor, which would be merely an illusion. Thus, Melisandre is most likely no man, or Stannis would have realized it by now...

A Faceless Man who wears a face sees his own face and body in a mirror, but anyone else sees what he is supposed to see. I think this could extend to the touch as well, else the Faceless Man could just use glamors instead of the rather complicated face-change transformation thing...

So a 'normal' 21st century person would be a sociopath in Westeros? (I ask this sincerely, because I get confused in what is considered sociopathic behaviour around here)

I think that the Pate prologue vs the Sam@Citadel chapter also establishes that the face change goes only skin-deep. The FM doesn't 'inherit' the personality, as the 'Pate' that Sam meets is a very different person than the original.

[Gwydden]

'The Ugly Little Girl' established that the face-changing of the Faceless Men is something deeper and different than a mere glamor, which would be merely an illusion. Thus, Melisandre is most likely no man, or Stannis would have realized it by now...

A Faceless Man who wears a face sees his own face and body in a mirror, but anyone else sees what he is supposed to see. I think this could extend to the touch as well, else the Faceless Man could just use glamors instead of the rather complicated face-change transformation thing...

Glamors can be easily undone, and do not stand a close meticulous inspection. Plus, they take away a sorcerer's strength. I took that as the reason why FM faceshifting is superior. I mean no offense, but both the idea that FM can feel their own true body (Arya touches her supposely missing and broken teeth with her tongue) but others for some reason can't and the one that putting a dead piece of skin over your face somehow changes your genitalia seem completely ridiculous and I would lose all respect for Martin if it turned out to be that way. It is a very different concept from possessing someone else's body.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Could Harys Swift be the contract kill the FM are going after? Otherwise, why are they wasting time with this envoy?

Arya killing Rafford was a spur of the moment thing. It wasn't planned. You can see that by the way Arya reacts when she recognized Rafford.

Arya is not wasting time with the envoy. She's training in mummery with Izembaro, but when she recognizes Rafford, who is on her "kill list", she takes her chance.

I am pretty sure the fishmonger Brusco and Big Brusco are not the same person.

:agree:

[Lord Varys]

Well, we have to see how it works out. Pate is still the same guy, all that has changed is that he is now somehow smart. I guess Jaqen had to forge a link to become an acolyte and gain access to Marwyn's inner circle.

But I really think a mere illusion would be not really different from a glamor if touch can reveal it...

[bemused]

Pate can't be that different..or the others acolytes would know it. But it's very possible he's no more than a very good glamour. At any rate the alchemist would have spent some time observing him. But we don't know what happened to his body.

Some glamours are not so easily undone.. Jon was very surprised when he fought Mance, thinking he seemed heavier, faster than expected but didn't still thought he could trust his eyes..and the men who were holding

"Rattleshirt" afterward didn't think anything was wrong.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, and if even a glamor can fool the touch, the faceless men stuff should be much more convincing. All Sam feels when he meets Pate is that he is somewhat weird, it's nothing compared to what Dunk/Jon experience with glamors.

Pate is still an adolescent in the Prologue of AFfC. He is about 15-16 years old. Jaqen was an adult man in his Jaqen form - no idea what he is in his true form, but Jaqen in his Alchemist form clearly was not of the same height, weight, and so forth as young Pate.

[Grizzly Mormont]

Richard the third:

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.

Bloody hand:

As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yeah, and if even a glamor can fool the touch, the faceless men stuff should be much more convincing. All Sam feels when he meets Pate is that he is somewhat weird, it's nothing compared to what Dunk/Jon experience with glamors.

Pate is still an adolescent in the Prologue of AFfC. He is about 15-16 years old. Jaqen was an adult man in his Jaqen form - no idea what he is in his true form, but Jaqen in his Alchemist form clearly was not of the same height, weight, and so forth as young Pate.

So then, why does Arya always wear only faces that fit her age and gender? Why does Mercy have to be a skinny girl without breast? I believe it's because these things cannot change, only the face can change.

ETA: Sam has not met Pate before. Pate feels different to the reader, for a reason.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know yet if Arya has to be a skinny girl of about the same age. All we know is that her first two identities were such girls. But that could be part of her training. I guess she would have had enormous difficulties to impersonate a an old, overweight man. That is, as long as she has not yet mastered her mummery. In fact, the whole point of her mummer education could be to help her impersonate people that differ from her in size, gender, and personality.

[The Lord of the Waters]

I believe something that cropped up a little earlier on this thread with relation to the FM, is that there is clearly some magic involved in the transformation, especially with the wiping the hand over the face and the face changing thing that Jaqen does.
Personally I believe that the faceless men can take on the form of anyone they need to through some Art of Magic, it s highly likely that Arya has not yet reached that level of capability and thus is restricted to characters of her own size/gender.

The way the "Ugly" face is applied to her is quite obviously different to whatever it is that Jaqen does when changing his face and so we can assume that these are two different kinds of transformation. It seems to me it would require too much to need people of matching size to be those whose identity you can assume. I would have to say that I don't think we have experienced enough from the text with regards to assuming the identities of others, as in replacing a person and going amongst people who knew them prior to your assumption of their identity.. would they pick up on a change in personality and mannerisms? Most likely, therefore there would be the need to at least assume some of their personal traits or mannerisms etc.

To add to this, as was shown with the Ugly girl face, Arya experienced memories of the girl from her death, being beaten/raped or whatever. So the method that the FM use to assume the identity obviously allows them insight into the person who's identity they have taken.

[The Lord of the Waters]

Now I'm wondering ...if there are actual keys that are shown , or placed in a voting box ( as at the wall) , are they made from different materials.. e.g. the key in Mercy's pocket is iron... I don't know, something along the lines of X number of iron keys ( as opposed to say, purple keys , or black and white keys )would mean the IB's candidate for Sealord is chosen..? I'm thinking we've seen Arya in one mission ( with the coins) where she took one and substituted one..

Wasn't the indication that the coin she swapped it for was poisonous? As her observations were that the Man always bit each coin to check it and upon biting the substitute coin he would ingest the poison.

[Gwydden]

We don't know yet if Arya has to be a skinny girl of about the same age. All we know is that her first two identities were such girls. But that could be part of her training. I guess she would have had enormous difficulties to impersonate a an old, overweight man. That is, as long as she has not yet mastered her mummery. In fact, the whole point of her mummer education could be to help her impersonate people that differ from her in size, gender, and personality.

That doesn't answer this:

Why does Mercy have to be a skinny girl without breast?

The only thing about Arya that ever changes is her face. Why wouldn't she be able to impersonate a girl of the same age with a different body type?

The KM himself says that some people can see through glamors. Mance's is a particularly good one only because he happens to have something very big that was characteristic of the one he's impersonating and that contributes to hide his actual looks. And remember, Melisandre thinks she almost fainted when trying to make Rattleshirt look like Mance.

And I must insist that Arya doesn't feel anything different going on even with her face. So I am convinced it is an illusion, even if a very good one. I doubt most people would notice something weird is going on with someone else's face only by touching it (or that someone would try to touch the ugly little girl's teeth) so it would still be extremely effective.

Honestly, I think magic capable of changing people's gender (or physical form in general) is rather unlikely to exist.

[Gwydden]

Double post, sorry.

[The Lord of the Waters]

ETA: Sam has not met Pate before. Pate feels different to the reader, for a reason.

I think that was to make sure the reader was aware that something was going on with Pate, for us to realise that the Alchemist had actually taken the identity of Pate. It helps us make the connection between the appearance of the Alchemist and the changed face of Jaqen.

[The Lord of the Waters]

Honestly, I think magic capable of changing people's gender (or physical form in general) is rather unlikely to exist.

What like Dragons and Wargs? I see your point but I think it's highly possible. If there are people in the ASOIAF world who can Warg into trees and animals and see through their eyes/control them then it's highly possible. I personally would look at instances like Bran warging into Hodor, or the instace with Varymyr in AFFC.. I know warging is different but to me it suggests the possibility of the ability to change your form through some kind of magic/sorcery.

[Oren]

I think Arya was playing Shae (not Sansa). Phario Forrel probably based the story on Tyrion's trial.