[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[ShadowCat Rivers]

for those of you wondering if Mercy's character is either Shae or Sansa the wiki has a short cut to Sansa's page

It can't be Sansa. One of her lines is “Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden”. Apart from the m'lord issue, is there a stupidest line than that, to give to a bride at her wedding night, as a reason why her newly wedded husband should spare her?

No, it's an apparently not highborn girl who might be inspired by Shae - what is known of her from the gossip regarding Tyrion's trial that reached the author of the play- but is not nessecarily Shae as we know her.

ETA: The play is written and played in Braavosi. The envoy may or may not understand the language. Since it was written in order to please them, the scenes must be simple and easy to understand by the acting, even if they don't get the words. If a Sansa character was in the play, she would have a costume with bat wings or something like that, but she wouldn't be presented in a way that could be perceived as a sympathetic victim.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'll just repeat an age old theory of mine:

"Whenever a new Sealord is elected the knives come out" Stated by Syrio in AGOT.

Imo if the FM really did control everything, like some people here believe, there would be no need for those knives. The FM would just put a candidate forward and he would get chosen.

There must be some organization that pushes against the FM. Not to say that they are in open war with the FM, but more that they don't just lay down in awe before the FM.

The only organization powerful enough to be this adversary is the Iron Bank of Braavos. When the cuurent Sealord dies, knives will come out again and Arya will get embroideld in the conflict.

As to Brusco and Izembaro. There is no way that they are (retired) FM. You don't retire with the FM. I personally think that the FM civilian network is made up of people who didn't complete their training (Arya was given a choice remember), people who were given to the FM as prize (they can't all turn out to be. Like the waif), people who were once customers of the FM and people that associate themself with the FM political faction (the existence of which is not yet confirmed, but I believe it will be).

I have to say, you're probably right, the IB and the FM are probably the Braavosi version of the modern world's opposing political parties.

[Veltigar]

I have to say, you're probably right, the IB and the FM are probably the Braavosi version of the modern world's opposing political parties.

The FM must be the Tea Party right? :p

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

The FM must be the Tea Party right? :P

edit double post - it all went a bit wonky there.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

The FM must be the Tea Party right? :P

So the FM are the tea party and they are on the opposing side to the Bankers?

Surely that should be the other way round. :huh:

[Lord Varys]

On Braavosi politics:

The fact that there is quarrel and stuff does not mean that the Faceless Men aren't very influential. Braavos is not a totalitarian society, and the House of Black and White does not seem to be very interested in exerting direct power over people. But this doesn't mean that they are not the single-most powerful faction in Braavosi politics. A faction, that gets everything it wants, and gets a veto on everything it does not want to happen.

This is somewhat supported by the fact that the Faceless Men are clearly allowed to kill anyone whatsoever if they accept a contract, and have to fear of repercussions from Braavosi officials. Even more importantly, every Braavosi citizen supports and helps any Faceless Man he meets, even abroad. That's a very big hint that they are tremendously influential...

The Faceless Men don't seem to interfere all that much with Braavosi day-to-day politics. And if they are behind the Iron Bank, even that does not need to have a huge bearing on the domestic affairs in Braavos, since it seems that the Iron Bank is bank dealing with big money.

[bemused]

I think that Braavos "the secret city" may well be run by a secret triumverate of IB , FM and Sealord , with the Sealord being the apparent leader , but behind the scenes it takes two factions at least to set policy.

Complete speculation ..Just throwing it out there..

Now I'm wondering ...if there are actual keys that are shown , or placed in a voting box ( as at the wall) , are they made from different materials.. e.g. the key in Mercy's pocket is iron... I don't know, something along the lines of X number of iron keys ( as opposed to say, purple keys , or black and white keys )would mean the IB's candidate for Sealord is chosen..? I'm thinking we've seen Arya in one mission ( with the coins) where she took one and substituted one.. If a keyholder should die ,but is found to be holding a key of a particular material...would the vote count ? ( Assuming it's his family that's actually entitled to vote , he may not need to be alive , if they would uphold "his" decision ) .

Of course , if something like this is going on, the substitution may already have been made and the IB loses a vote rather than gaining one..

[Free Northman Reborn]

OK, so I've been trying to read through all 3 Mercy discussion threads in chronological order to come up to the present and make my first comment on the new chapter. I was forced to give up part way through Thread 1 and have skipped to the end of the latest thread in frustration. Jeez people you are writing fast on this topic.

So here are my thoughts on a few of what appear to be contentious issues (unless they have been resolved in the interim threads that I have skipped):

1. It is quite clear that Izembaro is not a Faceless Man people. He is no different to Brusco or whatever the name of the clam fisherman was that Arya was apprenticed to before. He probably knows just enough that if the Faceless Men ask him a favour he obliges, without asking any questions. He is a buffoon and has no idea that "Mercy" is a trainee Faceless Man.

2. Arya is not about to part with the Faceless Men immediately after killing Raff. She is merely finishing her "Mercy" phase.

3. Arya is not sexually awakening or becoming a whore or anything of the sort. If anything, she is asexual, and long may she remain so in order to be remain the Arya we like.

She grabbed Raff's cock as she would have grabbed his arm or leg or throat. Not out of sexual desire, but out of practicality. Personally, I hope and believe that Arya will die a virgin and never become less than the killing machine she is right now. She is Asha without the "Her c*nt became the world" aspect which is not necessary or appropriate for Arya's character. Arya is unique. She is not any other human. She is kind of a priestess of death, but with a moral code that ensures that only bad people get the Gift, unlike the Faceless Men who have no morals whatsoever.

4. Arya is not a sociopath. She is just killing people that need killing. She is not going to kill Jon or Sansa or Hot Pie and not feel a thing. But if it is a "bad" person, well, then she is certainly not going to feel a thing, and rightly so. She is a dealer in retribution, she is the Hand of Poetic Justice in this sorry tale that so sorely lacks justice in almost every other respect.

5. Arya was not on any mission at the Gate. She was just learning to act. Now that she got her first lines in a play, it seems that role was done for in any case. That training is now complete.

6. Back in Feast my distaste for Jaime was brought home once again when he seemed to get along rather well with one "Rafford", who he seemed to rather like amongst the rest of Clegane's men. I am SO happy that Arya offed the creep. May her spree only continue from here on out.

7. Lastly, everyone seems to greatly overestimate the retribution that the House of Black and White is about to (constantly) imminently unleash on Arya for breaking their rules. The fact is, they are not playing Arya, she is playing them. This was made utterly clear in the Kindly Man stick hitting scene, where her warging secret not only allows her to cling to her identity, but to outwit his attempts at dominating her during lessons.

Not only are the Faceless Men not going to suddenly exact terrible punishment on Arya, the opposite is in fact the truth. Arya is unlike anything they have ever encountered before in their 800 years or more of existence. She is the greatest assassin in history, in the making, and is a warg. Once the time comes, not only is she not going to suffer their punishment, she is going to exact retribution on THEM, as I have said for some time now. The House of Black and White is likely to suffer a terrible cataclysm when Arya parts with them on acrimonious terms.

Oh yes, as for this chapter. I was creeped out by the sexual nature of the content, but I loved Arya's retribution against "Rafford" at the end. She remains on track for her intended role after the "5 year gap" training period.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If the key is not for some door of the HoBaW then

....Crackpot time....

She has a locker in the Iron Bank, where she hides her "treasures".

[Gwydden]

/snip

I disagree with most of your assessments, especially those regarding Arya's character. She IS a sociopath, and this is extremely noticeable in this chapter. She has very little empathy, and thinks about killing in almost sexual terms (which is the one thing I found disturbing in the entire chapter). Not to mention how cold and detached she seems when planning and executing Raff's death and even about the idea of playing the role of rape victim of a man who as far as she knows actually raped her sister.

[Lord Varys]

Free Northman,

I agree with you in many ways, but I'd like to add that Arya is not exactly a retribution machine. It was not her place to murder Dareon, nor had she any reason to off that Bolton guardsman. Not to speak about the guy she offed in her last ADwD chapter.

Arya is more or less on the Hannibal Lecter sociopath level. He kills people who are not polite and/or who are threat to him. That's not exactly the same sort of rules Arya follows, but it can be compared. And if she finishes her training she will be forced/asked to kill random people she has never seen or known. And that will be interesting, because the Faceless Men will most likely send her to Meereen/Volantis to kill Daenerys.

And the Faceless Men are not necessarily without a moral code of sorts. It's implied that they brought the gift to Valyrian slave owners, too, in the end, very strongly implying that they caused the Doom. That was very heavy retribution for millions of exploited, killed, mutilated slaves, if you ask me.

Arya must finish her training. Anything else would be stupid. The point in introducing a assassin guild that can take on other identities is no fun if the POV that learns with them does not finish her training. And I think GRRM should explore everything that implies, including, say, sex with Arya in the form of boy/man. That would be interesting psychologically, and H.P. Lovecraft is today criticized for not bringing up that topic in 'The Thing on the Doorstep' (male spirit possesses daughter who in turn possesses her own weak-willed husband - what sort of sex life did these people have...?).

[Gwydden]

And the Faceless Men are not necessarily without a moral code of sorts. It's implied that they brought the gift to Valyrian slave owners, too, in the end, very strongly implying that they caused the Doom. That was very heavy retribution for millions of exploited, killed, mutilated slaves, if you ask me.

Killing thousands of other innocents in the process? Jerks.

Arya must finish her training. Anything else would be stupid. The point in introducing a assassin guild that can take on other identities is no fun if the POV that learns with them does not finish her training. And I think GRRM should explore everything that implies, including, say, sex with Arya in the form of boy/man. That would be interesting psychologically, and H.P. Lovecraft is today criticized for not bringing up that topic in 'The Thing on the Doorstep' (male spirit possesses daughter who in turn possesses her own weak-willed husband - what sort of sex life did these people have...?).

Err, the FM can change faces. Not bodies. Arya can't turn into a man, and she looks feminine enough to attract the attention of several men around her. I do think Martin should explore the topic with her, if only because I want her to grow up as soon and in as many ways as possible.

[Narco]

I disagree with most of your assessments, especially those regarding Arya's character. She IS a sociopath, and this is extremely noticeable in this chapter. She has very little empathy, and thinks about killing in almost sexual terms (which is the one thing I found disturbing in the entire chapter). Not to mention how cold and detached she seems when planning and executing Raff's death and even about the idea of playing the role of rape victim of a man who as far as she knows actually raped her sister.

I didn't see the "sexual attraction" of Arya in the text. When the text says "She wanted him so hard", it's because she is playing her part of Mercy who wants to have sex with him. She is completely inside the character, until the last moment. And that's for this reason that the name "Arya" appears only at the end. Everything that Mercy thinks is about Mercy, not Arya. There are not Arya's thoughts or desires. She is playing a part.

I don't understand how you can really believe that Arya has a sexual attraction toward murder. The entire chapter is about playing a role.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think you "become" a sociopath, you are born that way, so whatever Arya has become, it's not a sociopath, since we didn't ever see any latent sociopathic tendencies prior to her being a child exposed to massive stress/murder/rape/violence and the death of her family. She's highly disturbed and in an emotionally dead, disassociative state and has severe post traumatic stress, or something along those lines.

[Gwydden]

I didn't see the "sexual attraction" of Arya in the text. When the text says "She wanted him so hard", it's because she is playing her part of Mercy who wants to have sex with him. She is completely inside the character, until the last moment. And that's for this reason that the name "Arya" appears only at the end. Everything that Mercy thinks is about Mercy, not Arya. There are not Arya's thoughts or desires. She is playing a part.

I don't understand how you can really believe that Arya has a sexual attraction toward murder. The entire chapter is about playing a role.

I didn't say she has a sexual attraction toward murder. I said that she thinks about it in sexual terms, which yes, is probably partly due to Mercy's influence. I really don't think Arya is sexually active (yet) but I believe that seeing how she thinks about murder (or rather revenge) in Mercy's PoV gives us a hint of how she feels about it as Arya. Not only does she enjoy it, she actively thirsts for it, in a truly desperate manner. This is further reinforced by how the play doesn't seem to break her act, but seeing Raff is enough to snap her out of it and break her performance.

I don't think you "become" a sociopath, you are born that way, so whatever Arya has become, it's not a sociopath, since we didn't ever see any latent sociopathic tendencies prior to her being a child exposed to massive stress/murder/rape/violence and the death of her family. She's highly disturbed and in an emotionally dead, disassociative state and has severe post traumatic stress, or something along those lines.

Semantics. The fact is she is emotionally detached to very dangerous levels.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

Free Northman,

I agree with you in many ways, but I'd like to add that Arya is not exactly a retribution machine. It was not her place to murder Dareon, nor had she any reason to off that Bolton guardsman. Not to speak about the guy she offed in her last ADwD chapter.

No-one had no reason to Kill Dareon, but Arya Stark of House Stark had a duty to. She had no option with the Bolton Guard. She was under threat of rape and murder and had to get out

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The FM must be the Tea Party right? :P

That's a hard call, fight for the rich or fight for the right to kill someone who doesn't fight for the rich? :dunno: ;)

[Lord Varys]

Can Faceless Men really only change faces?! I always thought they took the whole identity of the people they impersonate, include sex, height, stature, and so forth. Pate most certainly is not of the same height, stature, weight, and so forth as Jaqen, or is he?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Free Northman,

I agree with you in many ways, but I'd like to add that Arya is not exactly a retribution machine. It was not her place to murder Dareon, nor had she any reason to off that Bolton guardsman. Not to speak about the guy she offed in her last ADwD chapter.

Arya is more or less on the Hannibal Lecter sociopath level. He kills people who are not polite and/or who are threat to him. That's not exactly the same sort of rules Arya follows, but it can be compared. And if she finishes her training she will be forced/asked to kill random people she has never seen or known. And that will be interesting, because the Faceless Men will most likely send her to Meereen/Volantis to kill Daenerys.

And the Faceless Men are not necessarily without a moral code of sorts. It's implied that they brought the gift to Valyrian slave owners, too, in the end, very strongly implying that they caused the Doom. That was very heavy retribution for millions of exploited, killed, mutilated slaves, if you ask me.

Arya must finish her training. Anything else would be stupid. The point in introducing a assassin guild that can take on other identities is no fun if the POV that learns with them does not finish her training. And I think GRRM should explore everything that implies, including, say, sex with Arya in the form of boy/man. That would be interesting psychologically, and H.P. Lovecraft is today criticized for not bringing up that topic in 'The Thing on the Doorstep' (male spirit possesses daughter who in turn possesses her own weak-willed husband - what sort of sex life did these people have...?).

Well, speaking for myself, the moment I saw Daeron's weak, traitorous character on display when he betrayed Sam and Gilly to become a singer in Braavos, I wished death upon him and was utterly jubilant when Arya delivered it.

Arya is not a court of law. She is the retribution for being of bad character. You don't get to argue your case. She may be wrong with her judgement, but she does the deed based on that iron judgement nonetheless. As for the Bolton guardsman. That was an act of war. It was the surest way to escape the Bolton clutches. Kill or be killed.

I would agree that her actions at behest of the Faceless Men are not according to her personal strict moral code, as is the case with the crooked merchant, but again, I personally do not believe that Arya would follow their instructions if it was a child or mother of a child that was her intended victim. She justified the crooked insurer to herself because he was in some degree a bad person.

But that's another reason why she will part with the Faceless Men. She kills according to her OWN code, and it grates her to do so according to THEIRS.

To conclude, Daeron fully deserved to die. As much as Janos Slynt did.

[Lord Varys]

Arya may be Arya of House Stark, but this means nothing legally. She is a girl, and she is neither the Lord nor the Ruling Lady of Winterfell. She cannot possibly sentence anyone to death, and then execute him. Not even a deserter of the Night's Watch. Westeros is not Braavos, either, and even Westeros is a lawful society. The right of pits and gallows is limited to lords, to enact it on their own land. Arya is neither a Lord, nor on her own land, when she kills Dareon.